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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

megadude Jul 11, 2019 8:44 PM

Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if viewership and attendance is down other than in SK and WPG, why would the ownership group and possibly the city and province lay out such a huge expenditure for a new team and stadium if those two important metrics are trending down?

Is there any point to this startup if the league they are joining is trending backwards?

I mean, I know viewership and attendance can go down in the big leagues and there's no shortage of cities wanting to join, but those leagues are massive entities with huge TV contracts and spread out over the US and Canada. The CFL is apples to those oranges.

Should those behind the Schooners be that enthusiastic?

I grew up watching the CFL and attending a few Argos games and a couple of Ticats games and I want it to succeed. But the league is trending down.

Then again lots of sports are, like baseball. As is my favourite sport, Formula 1. F1 is still massive but it's definitely not what it used to be and all the stakeholders recognize that.

thurmas Jul 11, 2019 9:34 PM

CFL's two biggest issues are 1)that their 3 largest markets are currently the 3 worst teams in the league and have not had consistent winning clubs in many many years. (Yes Argos won 2 Grey Cups but they were 9-9 teams that were flukes and failed to capitalize in the following seasons)2) Games are way too expensive for the average fan especially when all the games are on tv in HD now for free why would a family shill out $79 a ticket plus $12 for a beer and $11 bucks for parking. The eskimos move of free tickets for under 17 year olds, $22 discount endzone seats and cheaper food is a good start and needs to be replicated league wide. Get kids and families into the games and stop bothering wasting time on millennials who do not care for the CFL they are already lost fan base to NBA and NFL

Djeffery Jul 11, 2019 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadude (Post 8630123)
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if viewership and attendance is down other than in SK and WPG, why would the ownership group and possibly the city and province lay out such a huge expenditure for a new team and stadium if those two important metrics are trending down?

Is there any point to this startup if the league they are joining is trending backwards?

I mean, I know viewership and attendance can go down in the big leagues and there's no shortage of cities wanting to join, but those leagues are massive entities with huge TV contracts and spread out over the US and Canada. The CFL is apples to those oranges.

Should those behind the Schooners be that enthusiastic?

I grew up watching the CFL and attending a few Argos games and a couple of Ticats games and I want it to succeed. But the league is trending down.

Then again lots of sports are, like baseball. As is my favourite sport, Formula 1. F1 is still massive but it's definitely not what it used to be and all the stakeholders recognize that.

The Halifax people are probably hoping they can be the Riders of the east, be that popular loveable regional team. Fill that role of the local big league team.

esquire Jul 11, 2019 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 8630095)
Last week's CFL ratings, worrisome trend that outside of Bomber and Rider games ratings are getting really weak:

https://3downnation.com/2019/07/11/s...he-cfl-season/

I read the article and may I say that you are reaching very far to put the most dramatically negative spin possible on things. I mean, there's always room for improvement, but averaging over half a million viewers for last week's games is not exactly a three alarm fire scenario.

JHikka Jul 12, 2019 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8630200)
I read the article and may I say that you are reaching very far to put the most dramatically negative spin possible on things. I mean, there's always room for improvement, but averaging over half a million viewers for last week's games is not exactly a three alarm fire scenario.

CFL used to get a few games above 1M each regular season - now it's news when they hit 700K. The league hasn't had a regular season game over the 1M mark since 2015. The article is probably right to bring attention to a 6% decline so far this season after a 4% increase last season.

To shine more of a light on this: in 2018, of the 77 games we have data for, nine of them had audiences between 300K-400K on TSN. In 2019 we've already had five such games through Week 4. It seems to be that if the CFL starts its season before Canada Day both its gate and TV audiences take a hit. I'm interested to see if there will still be a push for June starts moving forward.

I know this year was the Raptors run and etc. etc. but what happens if the CFL starts in June and the Jets/Leafs/Canucks/Flames are on a run to the Cup Final? How do the Bombers fair on a Thursday night if the Jets are playing in the SCF on Wednesday and Friday? These are questions and risks the CFL will have to take, I imagine. This year's SCF ran until June 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas
Games are way too expensive for the average fan especially when all the games are on tv in HD now for free

Having a TV with TSN is not free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadude
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if viewership and attendance is down other than in SK and WPG, why would the ownership group and possibly the city and province lay out such a huge expenditure for a new team and stadium if those two important metrics are trending down?

A good question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadude
I mean, I know viewership and attendance can go down in the big leagues and there's no shortage of cities wanting to join, but those leagues are massive entities with huge TV contracts and spread out over the US and Canada. The CFL is apples to those oranges.

The difference between "the big leagues" and the CFL is that CFL teams still rely heavily on gate receipts. If one combines gates with the TSN payment to each team you're looking at a heavy chunk of a team's overall revenue in those two sources. Other leagues are able to branch out more with sponsors, corporate partnerships, etc. and the CFL simply doesn't have that ability on a wider level.

esquire Jul 12, 2019 2:52 PM

^ To your first point, I personally liked the idea of moving the CFL season up a little to avoid the winter weather that is common toward the end of the regular season and into the playoffs, but you might be right in that that the market doesn't seem to like the early start. Maybe there just isn't enough time to sell tickets and the game itself when you're trying to break through the noise generated by the NHL playoffs, and the NBA playoffs this year which were obviously a much bigger presence in Canada than ever before.

You are right in that if a Canadian NHL team goes to the finals, it would really overshadow the start of the CFL season. It just might be that the CFL has to go back to its traditional schedule.

Hackslack Jul 12, 2019 3:31 PM

How does TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact make the money? Do they get more/better sponsors? Their attendances in each respective city is better than the CFL counterpart, maybe aside from Montreal, but their tv audiences surely don’t. How does MLS as a league tv audiences compare to the CFL?

JHikka Jul 12, 2019 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8630693)
How does TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact make the money? Do they get more/better sponsors? Their attendances in each respective city is better than the CFL counterpart, maybe aside from Montreal, but their tv audiences surely don’t. How does MLS as a league tv audiences compare to the CFL?

TV is only a smart part of the pie for MLS franchises.

As a comparison, the three Canadian MLS teams make between $3M-$4M USD per season on their jersey sponsors alone. That's the equivalent to what each CFL team makes from their entire TV contract. This is on top of something like, for example, $5M USD per season per team for the Adidas league-wide jersey contract. MLS teams' revenue on sponsorships and corporate alone is pretty strong. They'll be pulling in another ~$1M/season per team on sleeve sponsors once those begin in the next year or so.

They also take part in the international transfer of players, which means they're able to buy and sell players at loss or profit. Whitecaps sold Davies for $22M last season, as one example, and just spent $2M+ on Ali Adnan. This is why MLS teams are keen to build training and youth facilities - the more youth they develop the deeper their team will be, and the more they develop the more they can potentially sell. The ROI on a youth soccer academy is pretty high if they're able to actually develop talent.

cjones2451 Jul 12, 2019 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8630693)
How does TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact make the money? Do they get more/better sponsors? Their attendances in each respective city is better than the CFL counterpart, maybe aside from Montreal, but their tv audiences surely don’t. How does MLS as a league tv audiences compare to the CFL?

I think other than TFC maybe breaks even or makes a bit, the other 2 lose money. There is more money from MLS wide sponsorship deals with kit sponsorship etc. and money from expansion, but from everything I read VWFC and the Impact lose money and TFC is closer to profits with higher revenue but bigger expenses for salary

blueandgoldguy Jul 12, 2019 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjones2451 (Post 8630712)
I think other than TFC maybe breaks even or makes a bit, the other 2 lose money. There is more money from MLS wide sponsorship deals with kit sponsorship etc. and money from expansion, but from everything I read VWFC and the Impact lose money and TFC is closer to profits with higher revenue but bigger expenses for salary

TFC loses tonnes of money. Approximately $10 million last year. And tens of millions the previous years before that.

Montreal lost $11 million last year and if the owner doesn't receive subsidies from the city to improve his facility, which is one of the worst in MLS, the team is likely living on borrowed time. Their losses are likely to be worse for 2019 as attendance is down nearly 3,000 per game this year...all this after the owner complained about lack of corporate and season ticket sales which he had hoped to improve this year.

Vancouver loses several million per year. Their gate revenue is likely to drop significantly this year as attendance is already down approx. 1000 per game from last year and will become worse as the season progresses; the team is terrible. Selling off Davies mitigates those annual losses but likely only for next 4-5 years. The issue with the Whitecaps is BC Place for which their revenue streams are extremely limited. They are at or near the bottom of the league for revenues. With all the recent additions of new MLS stadiums now and in the near future, the gap between rich and poor has become significantly bigger.

Fueled by rapid fire expansion, team values have exploded, even with modest increases in US tv ratings (Canadian tv ratings are generally terrible with all 3 teams consistently averaging below 100,000). Expansion fees have also allowed teams to post modest losses or profits.

Rapid expansion will not abet with 3 new teams set to join in the next 2 years, the likelihood of another 2 the following 2 years and upwards of 32 teams in 5 years. All to establish a footprint in the US with the hopes of receiving a huge tv contract. As I said before, the ratings gains are modest so don't expect that to happen and when the expansion money dries up, team valuations are likely to stabilize and possibly even decline.

Back to Vancouver and Montreal, in the event they are not able to resolve their issues in the medium term, I could see one or both eventually move to a mid-sized American city. Many are in the planning stages for swanky 18 - 20,000 seat stadiums for which the teams would have complete revenue control. This might be an attractive alternative for the Canadian owners should push come to shove.

Acajack Jul 12, 2019 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8630640)
CFL used to get a few games above 1M each regular season - now it's news when they hit 700K. The league hasn't had a regular season game over the 1M mark since 2015. The article is probably right to bring attention to a 6% decline so far this season after a 4% increase last season.

To shine more of a light on this: in 2018, of the 77 games we have data for, nine of them had audiences between 300K-400K on TSN. In 2019 we've already had five such games through Week 4. It seems to be that if the CFL starts its season before Canada Day both its gate and TV audiences take a hit. I'm interested to see if there will still be a push for June starts moving forward.

I know this year was the Raptors run and etc. etc. but what happens if the CFL starts in June and the Jets/Leafs/Canucks/Flames are on a run to the Cup Final? How do the Bombers fair on a Thursday night if the Jets are playing in the SCF on Wednesday and Friday? These are questions and risks the CFL will have to take, I imagine. This year's SCF ran until June 12.


Having a TV with TSN is not free.


A good question.


The difference between "the big leagues" and the CFL is that CFL teams still rely heavily on gate receipts. If one combines gates with the TSN payment to each team you're looking at a heavy chunk of a team's overall revenue in those two sources. Other leagues are able to branch out more with sponsors, corporate partnerships, etc. and the CFL simply doesn't have that ability on a wider level.

Add 150-250,000 (RDS) to the posted TSN number for any game involving Montreal.

Acajack Jul 12, 2019 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8630693)
How does TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact make the money? Do they get more/better sponsors? Their attendances in each respective city is better than the CFL counterpart, maybe aside from Montreal, but their tv audiences surely don’t. How does MLS as a league tv audiences compare to the CFL?

Impact games averaged 175000 last year on TVA Sports only. They are usually slightly lower than Alouettes games on RDS. About 50-100,000 lower. But audiences are growing and they are catching up.

JHikka Jul 12, 2019 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
TFC loses tonnes of money. Approximately $10 million last year. And tens of millions the previous years before that.

They also operate with one of the highest payrolls in MLS at $22M/season. Compare that to Montreal's $12M or Vancouver's $9M. They also just spent $13M on Pozuelo. I think they'll be ok. :hmmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Montreal lost $11 million last year and if the owner doesn't receive subsidies from the city to improve his facility, which is one of the worst in MLS, the team is likely living on borrowed time. Their losses are likely to be worse for 2019 as attendance is down nearly 3,000 per game this year...all this after the owner complained about lack of corporate and season ticket sales which he had hoped to improve this year.

Vancouver loses several million per year. Their gate revenue is likely to drop significantly this year as attendance is already down approx. 1000 per game from last year and will become worse as the season progresses; the team is terrible. Selling off Davies mitigates those annual losses but likely only for next 4-5 years. The issue with the Whitecaps is BC Place for which their revenue streams are extremely limited. They are at or near the bottom of the league for revenues. With all the recent additions of new MLS stadiums now and in the near future, the gap between rich and poor has become significantly bigger.

The difference between MLS and CFL finances is that MLS teams are plugged into the single entity model via Soccer United Marketing - as long as SUM continues to operate and provide direct business back into soccer and MLS then the teams individually can continue losing money. Think of it like a big boat that all MLS franchise exist on. Team values are speculative, of course, but if groups are willing to spend $200M+ to join the club then the Canadian MLS teams can continue losing a couple million/year on speculation alone. Again, we can also get into issues regarding teams intentionally losing money for the sake of taxes, spending money on infrastructure, and the murky modeling of MLS' finances on the best of days.

I've had previous posts on this topic outlining things like MLS team assets, training facility development, and etc. The Canadian MLS teams are more-or-less fine for the immediate future, regardless of how much Saputo moans about taxes or land deals. ;)

The main difference is that the Canadian MLS teams are more financially stable than the CFL counterparts that they share markets with on the sole basis that their sponsorship and corporate backing is stronger. That's before we get into things like gate receipts, attendances, and, gasp, TV viewing figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Rapid expansion will not abet with 3 new teams set to join in the next 2 years, the likelihood of another 2 the following 2 years and upwards of 32 teams in 5 years. All to establish a footprint in the US with the hopes of receiving a huge tv contract. As I said before, the ratings gains are modest so don't expect that to happen and when the expansion money dries up, team valuations are likely to stabilize and possibly even decline.

A new TV deal will almost certainly be a big step up over the current $720M deal. The current deal ends in 2022 with the World Cup taking place in North America in 2026, so one building off the other will be easy enough. Given the growth in the NBA and MLB contracts it's easy to assume MLS will see a similar increase in their deal. They're encouraging their teams to sign short-term local TV deals so they can package national and local rights together in 2022 (what this means for the Canadian teams, however, remains to be seen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Back to Vancouver and Montreal, in the event they are not able to resolve their issues in the medium term, I could see one or both eventually move to a mid-sized American city. Many are in the planning stages for swanky 18 - 20,000 seat stadiums for which the teams would have complete revenue control. This might be an attractive alternative for the Canadian owners should push come to shove.

There's no reason why Canadian MLS teams should relocate when owners groups in the US are willing to pay for expansion teams. It's also looking likely at this point that MLS will blow past 32 teams and simply continue expanding until 36 or so. After Miami, Nashville, and Austin there's Sacramento, St. Louis, Las Vegas, and Charlotte. Adding in the perpetual Detroit rumours gets the league to 32 fairly easily. I really don't think any of the Canadian MLS teams are at risk of relocation, especially after the amount of effort we saw put into Columbus to keep the Crew in that city.

EpicPonyTime Jul 13, 2019 7:13 PM

Only 24K in Winnipeg for their game last night, a surprisingly small crowd for the league's (current) best team.

The CFL as a whole just seems to be struggling this year in particular, and it's really hard to understand why. It's hard to believe that several thousand fans in these cities just decided not to bother anymore over the summer.

elly63 Jul 14, 2019 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8631642)
Only 24K in Winnipeg for their game last night, a surprisingly small crowd for the league's (current) best team.

The CFL as a whole just seems to be struggling this year in particular, and it's really hard to understand why. It's hard to believe that several thousand fans in these cities just decided not to bother anymore over the summer.

I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, some people choose to see negative and some choose to see positive. In my mind, seeing negative doesn't help matters. Most sports are down in one way or another in terms of viewership etc. It's a changing landscape, as I said before there are some that get something out of watching others play video games. To each his own.

It seemed everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon to bury the Als, but despite the obstacles they are proving the doubters/haterz wrong.

Some people just need to surround themselves in hype or what is popular in the mainstream. The basketball thread was mainly dead until the Raptor playoff run started. Posts about our national team or Canadians in the NBA didn't get much play but when the Raps got hot the bandwagon got bigger and bigger.

EpicPonyTime Jul 15, 2019 1:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8631951)
I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, some people choose to see negative and some choose to see positive. In my mind, seeing negative doesn't help matters. Most sports are down in one way or another in terms of viewership etc. It's a changing landscape, as I said before there are some that get something out of watching others play video games. To each his own.

It seemed everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon to bury the Als, but despite the obstacles they are proving the doubters/haterz wrong.

Some people just need to surround themselves in hype or what is popular in the mainstream. The basketball thread was mainly dead until the Raptor playoff run started. Posts about our national team or Canadians in the NBA didn't get much play but when the Raps got hot the bandwagon got bigger and bigger.

I mean, I'm all for seeing the positive in the league's current outlook, but what exactly is positive about a 4-0 team in Winnipeg drawing only 24K to a weekend game? Attendance is slipping in every market (even Sask didn't sell out its home opener) and TV ratings have been trending downward. So far there's only been one game with 30K+ attending. It's hard to be optimistic about where the league is heading, and that's coming from a major CFL supporter.

JHikka Jul 15, 2019 8:07 PM

The rumoured expansion fee for a CPL team now sits at $9M according to an interview with the President of the Quebec Soccer Federation.

https://twitter.com/tristandamours/s...21476980985856

Also, an NBLC team has bit the dust:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8632825)
https://www.thetelegram.com/sports/b...4QvLSE.twitter

Cape Breton Highlanders suspend NBLC operations

SYDNEY, N.S. — Tyrone Levingston says it’ll take an additional $250,000 to $300,000 a year in capital investment to resume Cape Breton Highlanders’ basketball operations in Sydney.
The professional team that has played in the National Basketball League of Canada since the 2016-17 season suspended operations indefinitely Friday.

Levingston, 36, a native of Detroit, has been the team’s president and general manager since the beginning. He moved to Cape Breton two years before the first tip-off at Centre 200 in December 2016 to secure the financing to make it a viable franchise.

The team always operated on a “shoestring” budget, Levingston admitted in an interview Friday. He said the Highlanders have a total annual budget of $225,000 a year when more established and financially secure teams have budgets of $500,000 or more.


Hackslack Jul 15, 2019 8:31 PM

Pretty amazing that a CPL franchise fee is pretty much on par with a CFL expansion franchise fee, according to CFLdb.ca

What is the economic reason CPL franchise fees are on par with the CFL. TV contracts? Gate revenue? Kit sponsors? Facility assets?

https://cfldb.ca/faq/league/

JHikka Jul 15, 2019 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8632978)
What is the economic reason CPL franchise fees are on par with the CFL. TV contracts? Gate revenue? Kit sponsors? Facility assets?

Owning a CPL franchise would get the potential owners into a share of Canada Soccer Business.

https://www.canadasoccer.com/canadia...anada--p161479

CSB effectively represents all Canadian soccer marketing and corporate activities. Owning a CPL team gets an owner a share of the pie that they make on revenues and partnerships. Between CSB's agreements with MediaPro and their corporate partnerships via CPL it's probably fair that their expansion fees are nearing $9M.

thenoflyzone Jul 16, 2019 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)

Montreal lost $11 million last year and if the owner doesn't receive subsidies from the city to improve his facility, which is one of the worst in MLS, the team is likely living on borrowed time.

What's wrong with Saputo stadium?

Been to several games there, and I see nothing wrong with the stadium. It's a nice soccer specific facility.

Been to a game at BMO field as well, and there is nothing different between the two, as far as fan experience goes.

NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

(I'm considering BMO Field as soccer specific, even though technically it no longer is)

JHikka Jul 16, 2019 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8633154)
NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

Eh, Yankee Stadium is a great facility; it's just not designed for soccer. BC Place is a great facility; it's just not right-sized for MLS. :shrug:

Saputo is definitely near the bottom end of MLS facilities all things considered, down there with Columbus and Dallas and Chicago. They're just very basic soccer stadiums. There's nothing wrong with that per se it's just that the standard in MLS has been improving and Saputo hasn't taken that next step yet.

king10 Jul 16, 2019 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8633154)
What's wrong with Saputo stadium?

Been to several games there, and I see nothing wrong with the stadium. It's a nice soccer specific facility.

Been to a game at BMO field as well, and there is nothing different between the two, as far as fan experience goes.

NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

(I'm considering BMO Field as soccer specific, even though technically it no longer is)

Saputo and BMO are quite different. Saputo is metal bleachers with semi permanent concession stands underneath. BMO is majority concrete with climate controlled luxury areas and permanent concessions.

Saputo construction cost was about $50M whereas BMO was $75M with a $120M reno which added a roof and much more indoor luxury space. You can tell the difference.

Rico Rommheim Jul 16, 2019 4:05 PM

Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ". It could really use an upgrade.

However, few fans I've spoken to seem to care or notice. And it's true that the stadium offers a good fan experience both above and under the bleachers. You have a direct connection to the metro and get a great view of the Olympic stadium tower. But yeah, it's low budget.

thenoflyzone Jul 16, 2019 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)
Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ".

98% of construction projects in Quebec are "broche a foin". What else is new.

The Olympic stadium needs (and will get) an upgrade. Saputo stadium is fine the way it is, at least for the short-medium term. Sure it's low budget, but I think Saputo did a good job meeting the MLS requirements with the stadium when they joined the league, all the while not wasting too much money. I'll take a low budget stadium with decent soccer players, vs a high end stadium with crappy players anyday....

Joey Saputo put his priorities in the right places I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)

However, few fans I've spoken to seem to care or notice.

Exactly my point.

Cheap tickets, good location, decent amount of roof covered seats, cheap and good food/drinks (ex. compared to Bell Centre), family friendly, a nice grass field exclusive to soccer (unlike BMO field or BC place), tight seating around said grass field, optimizing line of sight and closeness to the action, etc, etc.

A fan doesn't need much else. Metal bleachers or no. Besides, those metal bleachers make some great noise when 20,000+ fans stomp on them.

I fail to see the reasoning behind why the team would move because of the stadium. The fans seem happy with it. Pumping in $100 million+ for some upgrades that aren't really needed will jack up ticket prices, and that will only aggravate the attendance figures.

JHikka Jul 16, 2019 6:48 PM

Per MLB, Sportsnet had 2.6M viewers for the Home Run Derby.

ScreamingViking Jul 17, 2019 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king10 (Post 8633546)
Saputo and BMO are quite different. Saputo is metal bleachers with semi permanent concession stands underneath. BMO is majority concrete with climate controlled luxury areas and permanent concessions.

Saputo construction cost was about $50M whereas BMO was $75M with a $120M reno which added a roof and much more indoor luxury space. You can tell the difference.

BMO still has a "cheap" feel to me. Not to be a Ticats fan homer, but while THF was built based on value-for-money it feels far more enduring to me.

Roof on three sides is a big plus for BMO Field, but the seating is pretty flimsy and tight (I've sat in the upper sections of both the west and east grandstands, but maybe it differs lower down?)

The concession offerings are stellar though. Location is great. Regional and local transit connections are great. Despite having to shoehorn a CFL field in there it's a wonderful place to watch a CFL game. :tup:

elly63 Jul 17, 2019 1:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8632543)
I mean, I'm all for seeing the positive in the league's current outlook, but what exactly is positive about a 4-0 team in Winnipeg drawing only 24K to a weekend game? Attendance is slipping in every market (even Sask didn't sell out its home opener) and TV ratings have been trending downward. So far there's only been one game with 30K+ attending. It's hard to be optimistic about where the league is heading, and that's coming from a major CFL supporter.

And what were you hoping to accomplish with your post, do you think it was going to help attendance. I honestly don't mean to shit on ya but there is a fight for entertainment dollars and you want to portray something you love in a good light to help attract others, not push them away.

Saw a post at another site where an American poster said, "it's a fun game", should we try and get back to that instead of the incessant chicken little stuff. There was an SI article that had the league killed off in the late 1980s and over 30 years later it's still kicking and stronger than then.

There's enough people here who want to kill the CFL (which I can't figure out why), if you're a fan, please don't help them.

EpicPonyTime Jul 17, 2019 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8634154)
And what were you hoping to accomplish with your post, do you think it was going to help attendance. I honestly don't mean to shit on ya but there is a fight for entertainment dollars and you want to portray something you love in a good light to help attract others, not push them away.

Saw a post at another site where an American poster said, "it's a fun game", should we try and get back to that instead of the incessant chicken little stuff. There was an SI article that had the league killed off in the late 1980s and over 30 years later it's still kicking and stronger than then.

There's enough people here who want to kill the CFL (which I can't figure out why), if you're a fan, please don't help them.

Bruv, don't deflect from my question.

The fight for entertainment dollars argument rings true in Toronto but I'm going to press you to explain what the Bombers and Riders are competing with that would make their attendance drop. The Bombers have Valour FC and not much else.

Hackslack Jul 17, 2019 1:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8634313)
Bruv, don't deflect from my question.

The fight for entertainment dollars argument rings true in Toronto but I'm going to press you to explain what the Bombers and Riders are competing with that would make their attendance drop. The Bombers have Valour FC and not much else.

2 months worth of nice weather per year, especially after a long cold winter on the prairies.

TorontoDrew Jul 17, 2019 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)
Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ". It could really use an upgrade.


Is Saputo that crappy cheese company? It's always on sale and is such horrible quality.

esquire Jul 17, 2019 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8634434)
2 months worth of nice weather per year, especially after a long cold winter on the prairies.

Where is this jibberjabber about a Bomber attendance drop coming from? Attendance through the first 2 home games has been roughly on par with what we've seen since 2014, which is in the mid 20 thousands, say 24 to 27 thousand a game range (crowds were higher in 2013, which was IGF's first season).

Hackslack Jul 17, 2019 3:42 PM

It’s coming from the typical “CFL is no longer relevant” argument we see and hear every season. Which is obviously not the case.

esquire Jul 17, 2019 4:16 PM

^ Obviously not.

And as for the Riders, if there has been a drop in attendance I'm sure it has to do with the fact that they have a bad team charging high prices in a small city. What Regina manages to pull in for Rider games week in and week out is pretty damn impressive all things considered. The Riders are outdrawing the Blue Jays in terms of average attendance despite the fact that Regina has fewer people than a typical Toronto neighbourhood.

Rico Rommheim Jul 17, 2019 4:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8634524)
Is Saputo that crappy cheese company? It's always on sale and is such horrible quality.

Yeah. Saputo is the largest dairy producer in Canada. The Saputo family are amongst the richest in the country.

I can't vouch for the quality of its products, I hate dairy.

Hackslack Jul 17, 2019 5:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634582)
^ Obviously not.

And as for the Riders, if there has been a drop in attendance I'm sure it has to do with the fact that they have a bad team charging high prices in a small city. What Regina manages to pull in for Rider games week in and week out is pretty damn impressive all things considered. The Riders are outdrawing the Blue Jays in terms of average attendance despite the fact that Regina has fewer people than a typical Toronto neighbourhood.

Don’t the riders have 3rd highest merchandise sales of any sports team in the country, behind only the Leafs and Canadiens... I thought I heard that a few years back. Likely has changed since the success of the Jay and Raptors though

JHikka Jul 17, 2019 5:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634582)
The Riders are outdrawing the Blue Jays in terms of average attendance despite the fact that Regina has fewer people than a typical Toronto neighbourhood.

45 home games versus two home games. Good sample sizes. :haha:

It doesn't really make much sense to compare the average of two such wildly different teams and markets, but if you wanted to the Jays are nearly outdrawing the CFL as a whole during one of their worst years on record (21K versus a low 22K CFL average). In a normal year the Jays outdraw the entire CFL in both average and total attendance in the same number of total games. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
Where is this jibberjabber about a Bomber attendance drop coming from?

I think it's less a drop and more from the fact that the Bombers are only filling 70% of their stadium when they're having one of their best seasons in decades. It's pretty obvious at this point that IGF was built too large for the historic crowds that the Bombers typically get but there's still a lot of empty seats given how good the team has been so far. Teams like Valour and the Goldeyes aren't conceivably eating into their crowd that much.

It's also the first year they didn't carry a 25K average through their first two home games at IGF, although they just fractionally missed it. 2016 was around the same mark as what the team has so far this season.

Blue Bombers total crowd through two home games at IGF:
2013: 64,757
2014: 52,425
2015: 52,884
2016: 50,440
2017: 55,250
2018: 52,025
2019: 49,523

We'll see how they fare this week but honestly Winnipeg are one of the least concerns for CFL crowds right now. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8634674)
Don’t the riders have 3rd highest merchandise sales of any sports team in the country, behind only the Leafs and Canadiens... I thought I heard that a few years back. Likely has changed since the success of the Jay and Raptors though

From eight years ago:

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...ughriders.aspx

Last year the Riders had $7M in merchandise sales.

esquire Jul 17, 2019 6:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8634679)
45 home games versus two home games. Good sample sizes. :haha:

It doesn't really make much sense to compare the average of two such wildly different teams and markets, but if you wanted to the Jays are nearly outdrawing the CFL as a whole during one of their worst years on record (21K versus a low 22K CFL average). In a normal year the Jays outdraw the entire CFL in both average and total attendance in the same number of total games. :P

I kind of figured you'd have something to say about that.

The point of my comment is that Regina does impressively well to support the Riders by any measure. They cannot be faulted for not selling out games considering that on a per capita basis they absolutely whip the ass of pretty well any pro team you can think of. If people can't or won't buy pricy tickets to watch a bad team this season, I'm not going to blame them, certainly not any more than I'd blame people in Toronto from staying away from their teams which are apparently all having lacklustre seasons this summer.

As for the Bombers, the numbers you posted demonstrate that they are squarely within the attendance range that they have been in over the past 6 years.

:P

JHikka Jul 17, 2019 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634745)
The point of my comment is that Regina does impressively well to support the Riders by any measure. They cannot be faulted for not selling out games considering that on a per capita basis they absolutely whip the ass of pretty well any pro team you can think of.

Is it just Regina, though? I feel like we're always reminded that the entire province supports the Riders and that people commute for hours to watch them play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634745)
If people can't or won't buy pricy tickets to watch a bad team this season, I'm not going to blame them, certainly not any more than I'd blame people in Toronto from staying away from their teams which are apparently all having lacklustre seasons this summer.

I mean, the Wolfpack are doing pretty well again this summer. :P

I agree in theory but the issue becomes when it starts to fall into a general trend with other teams from the same league. If they're all more or less trending down, or reaching more for their floors than usual, then it's more than just weather or ticket prices affecting general gate figures.

This isn't just some fascination on this forum, either. The official CFL forums have a number of recent threads with it users discussing the attendance figures for this season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634745)
As for the Bombers, the numbers you posted demonstrate that they are squarely within the attendance range that they have been in over the past 6 years.

:P

They are more or less for the time being, but do you think their crowds should be larger given that they're unbeaten and pushing for a franchise-setting start to a season? Genuinely curious for your thoughts on this because we all know the Bombers have been bad for what feels like forever.

esquire Jul 17, 2019 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8634751)
Is it just Regina, though? I feel like we're always reminded that the entire province supports the Riders and that people commute for hours to watch them play.

They get support from across the province but from what I have heard the vast majority of their season ticket base is in or near Regina. I mean, I'm sure there are people from every corner of the province at a game and I'm sure there are more than a few hardcore fans doing lengthy commutes for every game, but generally the people from Yorkton or Prince Albert or wherever are attending games sporadically, once a year, that kind of thing.

Quote:

They are more of less for the time being, but do you think their crowds should be larger given that they're unbeaten and pushing for a franchise-setting start to a season? Genuinely curious for your thoughts on this because we all know the Bombers have been bad for what feels like forever.
I guess that's the funny thing about stadium sizing and the effect it has on perception. Somehow unless every game is sold out some people are going to insist that a team is underachieving.

If the team keeps doing well, I would expect crowds to rise. But I wouldn't expect a run on the box office based on how the team has been doing in the first few weeks. The fact that the Bombers are drawing more or less as they have for the past few years is not surprising... it's about what I'd expect.

Hackslack Jul 17, 2019 6:57 PM

The “entire province” consists of just over 1 million people. The 2 largest centres, Regina and Saskatoon are close to 3 hrs apart from each other. Regina, the smaller of the two, has a population less than 200K (2015).... any way it is framed, it is damn impressive actually the support they do get even with a mediocre team.

esquire Jul 17, 2019 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8634779)
The “entire province” consists of just over 1 million people. The 2 largest centres, Regina and Saskatoon are close to 3 hrs apart from each other. Regina, the smaller of the two, has a population less than 200K (2015).... any way it is framed, it is damn impressive actually the support they do get even with a mediocre team.

Yup. People often like to draw an analogy between Green Bay and the Riders, but consider that the largest city within a two hour drive of GB is Milwaukee, population 1.6 million. Wisconsin itself has nearly 6 million people.

The largest city within a two hour drive of Regina is Moose Jaw.

I am not a Riders fan by any measure but the level of support for the Riders in that province is damn impressive and is probably unmatched in North American professional sports. That's why the idea that the team is in trouble because of a lacklustre start to the season is a little hard to swallow.

elly63 Jul 17, 2019 7:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8634313)
Bruv, don't deflect from my question.

The fight for entertainment dollars argument rings true in Toronto but I'm going to press you to explain what the Bombers and Riders are competing with that would make their attendance drop. The Bombers have Valour FC and not much else.

I'm talking about the negativity affecting the league as a whole, the haterz do enough (see above), they don't need help.

thurmas Jul 17, 2019 8:24 PM

If the CFL can have teams that do well in the regular season consistently in BC, Toronto and Montreal ratings and attendance should improve. CFL games though in most markets are overpriced compared to 10 years ago when attendance and tv ratings were much healthier league wide. the move to have the seasons tart earlier in june seems to have backfired as most people in Canada were still talking basketball, hockey or want to go to the lake. CFL should start on Canada day.

GernB Jul 18, 2019 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 8634875)
If the CFL can have teams that do well in the regular season consistently in BC, Toronto and Montreal ratings and attendance should improve. CFL games though in most markets are overpriced compared to 10 years ago when attendance and tv ratings were much healthier league wide. the move to have the seasons tart earlier in june seems to have backfired as most people in Canada were still talking basketball, hockey or want to go to the lake. CFL should start on Canada day.

Yes. Ambrosie listened to a very vocal minority who were whining about having to sit in the cold. Moving the season forward has blown up in his face; hopefully he'll snap out of his reverie and move the season back.

esquire Jul 18, 2019 6:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GernB (Post 8635748)
Yes. Ambrosie listened to a very vocal minority who were whining about having to sit in the cold. Moving the season forward has blown up in his face; hopefully he'll snap out of his reverie and move the season back.

It was worth a shot IMO. I'll give him credit for trying it out. Of course, the season can only start so late because there are more bye weeks to allow for recovery than there used to be.

thurmas Jul 18, 2019 6:56 PM

tv numbers again very weak for last week's games for CFL.

https://3downnation.com/2019/07/18/d...umber-in-2019/

Berklon Jul 18, 2019 7:01 PM

Didn't they just start the regular season only 1 day earlier this year compared to last year... and about 10 days earlier than the previous years? Really doesn't sound like a big deal to me. If it's a problem, wouldn't it only be a problem for the first game or two only?

WhipperSnapper Jul 18, 2019 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8634745)
I kind of figured you'd have something to say about that.

The point of my comment is that Regina does impressively well to support the Riders by any measure. They cannot be faulted for not selling out games considering that on a per capita basis they absolutely whip the ass of pretty well any pro team you can think of. If people can't or won't buy pricy tickets to watch a bad team this season, I'm not going to blame them, certainly not any more than I'd blame people in Toronto from staying away from their teams which are apparently all having lacklustre seasons this summer.

As for the Bombers, the numbers you posted demonstrate that they are squarely within the attendance range that they have been in over the past 6 years.

:P

It also cheapens the Riders accomplishments to measure them to the Jays and/or Toronto. They aren't remotely comparable.

Hackslack Jul 18, 2019 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 8635852)
tv numbers again very weak for last week's games for CFL.

https://3downnation.com/2019/07/18/d...umber-in-2019/

Up from last years week 5 though. Still close to half a million tuned in on average for each of the games, which I wouldn’t consider weak.

Djeffery Jul 19, 2019 1:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8635855)
Didn't they just start the regular season only 1 day earlier this year compared to last year... and about 10 days earlier than the previous years? Really doesn't sound like a big deal to me. If it's a problem, wouldn't it only be a problem for the first game or two only?

It certainly isn't causing the Grey Cup game to be any earlier. This will be the 11th straight year it's been the last Sunday of November


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