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Calfan12 Aug 7, 2022 6:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9695860)
Aeroroutes posted Westjet's summer 2023 international operations. Looks like they are not flying any international routes out of YHZ next summer? Maybe they will load them later, but they loaded these routes so not sure what the deal is:

WestJet recently filed preliminary schedule for European service during Northern summer 2023 season, effective from 30APR23-01MAY23. As of 05AUG22, following routes are available for reservation.

Calgary – Dublin eff 07MAY23 2 weekly 787-9 (3 from 10JUN23)
Calgary – London Gatwick eff 30APR23 5 weekly 787-9
Calgary – London Heathrow eff 01MAY23 4 weekly 787-9 (7 weekly scheduled until 29APR23)
Calgary – Paris CDG eff 26MAR23 3 weekly 787-9 (4 from 14APR23, 5 from 13JUN23)
Calgary – Rome eff 06MAY23 1 weekly 787-9 (2 from 25MAY23, 3 from 07JUN23)
Toronto – Dublin eff 14MAY23 4 weekly 737 MAX 8 (7 weekly from 01JUN23)
Toronto – Edinburgh eff 01JUN23 3 weekly 737 MAX 8
Toronto – Glasgow eff 19MAY23 4 weekly 737 MAX 8
Vancouver – London Gatwick eff 30APR23 1 daily 787-9

Highlighted in previous post, the airline during the week of 26JUL22 removed Toronto – London Gatwick route in Northern summer 2023 season. Further changes to preliminary operation can be expected in the next few months.

I think it makes more sense for Calgary- London Gatwick LGW on WestJet to operate 3-4x weekly similar to like their doing this Summer 2022 instead of 5 weekly,as with 1x daily to London LHR on WS & Air Canada is enough capacity for UK next Summer from YYC.

But will see what changes they make as it gets closer to next Summer.

Calfan12 Aug 7, 2022 7:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9695610)
WS updated the winter schedule in the OAG yesterday. Mostly looked up the 787 routes.

YYC-LHR
YYC-CUN
YYC-PVR
YYC-OGG
YYC-HNL

YYZ-YYC
YYZ-CUN

Last winter, they ran a 787 on YVR-OGG, but that doesn’t appear to the case this winter?

Thanks for the update & not too surprising most WestJet 787 flights this upcoming winter is centred around Calgary YYC & along with some service for Toronto YYZ still too.

Calfan12 Aug 7, 2022 7:55 AM

Looks like Air Canada has received is 40th & final Boeing 737 Max8 plane delivery.

On August 6th, Air Canada took delivery of its 40th and final Boeing 737 MAX from an order originally placed in 2014. The original order was for 61 aircraft but the pandemic prompted the Canadian carrier to trim its commitment to the narrowbody. With this Boeing order complete, the airline will be looking ahead to complete its remaining A220 deliveries and its yet-to-begin A321XLR order.

https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-...737-max-8/amp/

hollywoodcory Aug 7, 2022 3:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9695939)
I think it makes more sense for Calgary- London Gatwick LGW on WestJet to operate 3-4x weekly similar to like their doing this Summer 2022 instead of 5 weekly,as with 1x daily to London LHR on WS & Air Canada is enough capacity for UK next Summer from YYC.

But will see what changes they make as it gets closer to next Summer.

WS currently runs YYC-LGW 5x weekly on Sun / Mon / Wed / Thu and Friday along with 4x weekly to LHR.

Which is exactly what’s currently scheduled in S23.

thewave46 Aug 7, 2022 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9695225)
WestJet has for years been relegated to the mess that is T3. Surprising they even tried to make a go of building a hub out in Toronto.

1. Um, where else would they go? Like, really?

2. Toronto T3 might not be that fantastic a connection hub, but there is so much origin-and-departure traffic there that connecting traffic has to be a minority. Westjet’s relative footprint east of Pearson is pretty minimal. Atlanta it is not.

3. Westjet has always tried to push traffic more west to Calgary within reason. They’re running K/W, London (ON), and St. John’s flights to YYC instead of via YYZ.

whatnext Aug 7, 2022 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 9694187)
I always felt like AZ was where western Canadian snowbirds went. My parents drove to AZ for the winter 8 or 9 years ago and that was what he found, most people in their trailer park were from the west. But that was RVing, so it makes sense for west to go west and east to go east.

Absolutely it is, as Florida is the tawdry flame for aged Quebecois..

casper Aug 7, 2022 6:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9696095)
1. Um, where else would they go? Like, really?

2. Toronto T3 might not be that fantastic a connection hub, but there is so much origin-and-departure traffic there that connecting traffic has to be a minority. Westjet’s relative footprint east of Pearson is pretty minimal. Atlanta it is not.

3. Westjet has always tried to push traffic more west to Calgary within reason. They’re running K/W, London (ON), and St. John’s flights to YYC instead of via YYZ.

They should have been putting pressure on the airport authority to bring in same level of service to T3 as T1 gets.

T1 has its problem areas (e.g., where AC operates regional jets to the US), but nothing like T3.

T3 could have been updated and had similar experience to T1, however the airport authority did not do it and WestJet did not put sufficient pressure on them to make it work.

Denscity Aug 7, 2022 6:06 PM

Yup driving straight south staying in your time zone till its warm and sunny.

Calfan12 Aug 8, 2022 6:25 AM

Looks like WestJet is cutting Edmonton YEG- Yellowknife YZF route for this upcoming Fall/Winter season mostly starting after September 9 & but WS plans to operate few weekly YEG-YZF flights during Christmas Holidays on select days December 23, 26, 30 & January 2 2023).

Also Air Canada YEG - YZF remains (seasonal) too, as last flight is end of September 2022.

Although Canadian North still has daily flights on YEG- YZF this fall/winter on the Boeing 737 plane.

Dominion301 Aug 8, 2022 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9696487)
Looks like WestJet is cutting Edmonton YEG- Yellowknife YZF route for this upcoming Fall/Winter season mostly starting after September 9 & but WS plans to operate few weekly YEG-YZF flights during Christmas Holidays on select days December 23, 26, 30 & January 2 2023).

Also Air Canada YEG - YZF remains (seasonal) too, as last flight is end of September 2022.

Although Canadian North still has daily flights on YEG- YZF this fall/winter on the Boeing 737 plane.

I'm sure 5T are thrilled to hear this.

LO 044 Aug 8, 2022 6:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9696805)
I'm sure 5T are thrilled to hear this.

I wonder if Flair will / should jump on the YEG-YZF route. You would think the prices would fall to 25% of what 5T probably charges.

Alexcaban Aug 9, 2022 12:44 AM

Air Canada just loaded YUL-CPH for S23
Starts June 23rd, 5 weekly on the 788

AC826 YUL-CPH 17.55-06.45+1 788 xx34567

AC827 CPH-YUL 13.15-15.00 788 1xx4567

nname Aug 9, 2022 1:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9697267)
Air Canada just loaded YUL-CPH for S23
Starts June 23rd, 5 weekly on the 788

AC826 YUL-CPH 17.55-06.45+1 788 xx34567

AC827 CPH-YUL 13.15-15.00 788 1xx4567

So with this, YYZ-AMS moved from AC826/827 to AC 807/808. YYZ-MAN moved to AC 907/908.

I guess Europe flights will be using the 9xx from now on instead of 10xx. I'll see if they'll renumber the EDI and KEF flights.

Dominion301 Aug 9, 2022 3:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9696888)
I wonder if Flair will / should jump on the YEG-YZF route. You would think the prices would fall to 25% of what 5T probably charges.

Maybe a twice weekly summer seasonal, which be useless in winter. Prices already fell substantially on the route when the southerners invaded.

WS have loaded their winter schedule. Looking at YOW, all sun routes return to their winter 2019-20 schedule, including:
MBJ 2x weekly
RSW 2x weekly
MCO 3x weekly

YYC drops from 13x to 11x weekly (at least for the week in December I checked)
YWG drops from 6x to 3x weekly…do doubt thanks to WO now being there too.
YYZ drops from up to 12x daily to between 4x & 6x/day. Every day has a 737 or two with the rest DH4s.

YOW certainly fares better than YUL that are down to only 4x DH4 daily to YYZ and 5x weekly to YYC. So less than 1 mainline WS flight per day at YUL!

I imagine that this will roughly be the eastern triangle going forward but come summer 2023, 737s will replace the remaining DH4s.

The 789 is also still on YYZ-YVR this winter.

Denscity Aug 9, 2022 5:56 AM

YVR now up over 2 million passengers per month and 80% of pre pandemic levels.

thenoflyzone Aug 9, 2022 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9697267)
Air Canada just loaded YUL-CPH for S23
Starts June 23rd, 5 weekly on the 788

AC826 YUL-CPH 17.55-06.45+1 788 xx34567

AC827 CPH-YUL 13.15-15.00 788 1xx4567

:tup:

Just wondering, how are they getting the frame to operate this route? Seems to me they didn’t have too much slack on widebodies this summer.
Maybe a shorter European route is going the way of the Max 8, in order to free up this B788?

BenYOW Aug 9, 2022 1:01 PM

WestJet is entering the YYF-YVR market as of February 17, 2023. Service will be six days per week excluding Saturdays, with flights operated through WestJet Link (Pacific Coastal Airlines) on the 34-seat Saab 340.
  • YVR-YYF Dep 1245 Arr 1335
  • YYF-YVR Dep 1405 Arr 1455

Alexcaban Aug 9, 2022 3:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9697545)
:tup:

Just wondering, how are they getting the frame to operate this route? Seems to me they didn’t have too much slack on widebodies this summer.
Maybe a shorter European route is going the way of the Max 8, in order to free up this B788?

Isn't there a 789 being delivered by the end of the year? with 2 more next year.

Denscity Aug 9, 2022 5:26 PM

The first flight from Fiji Airways will be landing in Vancouver in the next hour. :tup:

thenoflyzone Aug 9, 2022 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9697736)
Isn't there a 789 being delivered by the end of the year? with 2 more next year.

You’re right. No deliveries this year, but they’re getting 2 next year, according to their latest fleet plans released last week. They’re launching YYZ-BRU next year as well. So it explains the 2 route launches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 9697896)
The first flight from Fiji Airways will be landing in Vancouver in the next hour. :tup:

Are these promo flights really worth it?

nname Aug 9, 2022 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9697545)
:tup:

Just wondering, how are they getting the frame to operate this route? Seems to me they didn’t have too much slack on widebodies this summer.
Maybe a shorter European route is going the way of the Max 8, in order to free up this B788?

They can just move the 788 from YUL-PVG to the route. Or you really think China is going to open up by next summer?

Current routes scheduled with the 788:
1. YVR-KIX/ZRH
2. YUL-PVG
3. YYZ-PVG
4. YUL-CAI/TLV
5. YYZ-EDI
6. YYZ-MAN
7. YYZ-LHR
8. YUL-LHR
9. YVR-LHR
10. YUL-CPH
11. YYZ-CPH
12. YYZ-BRU

Both PVG flights are questionable, EDI/MAN can easily done with 7M8, LHR flights can upgauge to 789, YYZ-BRU had always been in in scheduled but keep getting postponed. Not really sure if they'll actually start it next year.

manny_santos Aug 10, 2022 5:13 AM

My return flight to BC was from YXU-YYC-YVR - a much better experience than my recent flight to Pearson. As usual, London Airport was a breeze with no delay. My second flight from YYC-YVR was delayed departing Calgary by 35 minutes due to lack of ground crews, but when I landed at YVR, by the time I got off the plane and got to the baggage area, my suitcase was already at the carousel.

I must say, I’ve never had a bad experience with either London Airport or YVR.

zahav Aug 10, 2022 6:12 AM

Aeroroutes did a good summary of mainland Chinese service over the next few months (that's basically as far as they can judge it because it changes so much). Ridiculously low levels of service everywhere. Outside of Asia, Los Angeles, Sydney, and Vancouver are the top destinations in terms of frequency and airlines (which isn't saying much, but shows which markets are relatively highest demand still for China):

LAX
Beijing Capital–Los Angeles 1 weekly 777-300ER (Inbound via Tianjin) - Air China
Shenzhen–Los Angeles 1 weekly 777-300ER - Air China
Guangzhou–Los Angeles 2 weekly A380 - China Southern
Xiamen–Los Angeles 4 weekly 787-9 - Xiamen Airlines

YVR
Beijing Capital–Vancouver 1 weekly 777-300ER (Outbound via Shenyang, Inbound via Zhengzhou) - Air China
Shenzhen–Vancouver 1 weekly 787-9 - Hainan Airlines
Chengdu Shuangliu–Vancouver 1 weekly A350-900XWB (2 from 02SEP22) - Sichuan Airlines
Xiamen–Vancouver 1 weekly 787-9 (2 from 06OCT22) - Xiamen Airlines

SYD
Shanghai Pu Dong–Sydney 1 weekly 777-300ER - China Eastern
Guangzhou–Sydney 1 weekly A350-900XWB - China Southern
Fuzhou–Sydney 1 weekly 787-8/-9 (until 13SEP22) - Xiamen Airlines
Xiamen–Sydney 3 weekly 787-8/-9 - Xiamen Airlines

Notable major cities that have either no (or almost no) flights:
YYZ (2 weekly flights)
NYC (1 weekly flight)
PAR (1 weekly flight)
LON (no flights)
ORD (no flights)
SFO (no flights)
SEA (no flights)
WAS (no flights)

I know it's splitting hairs, but it's interesting how they've divied up the flights that do exist. And very weird city pairs and not on the airlines that you'd expect. YVR the only airport outside Asia to have four different airlines serving four different destinations. Who the heck knows how things will play out into winter and next year.

Full article here

hehehe Aug 10, 2022 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9698539)
Aeroroutes did a good summary of mainland Chinese service over the next few months (that's basically as far as they can judge it because it changes so much). Ridiculously low levels of service everywhere. Outside of Asia, Los Angeles, Sydney, and Vancouver are the top destinations in terms of frequency and airlines (which isn't saying much, but shows which markets are relatively highest demand still for China):

LAX
Beijing Capital–Los Angeles 1 weekly 777-300ER (Inbound via Tianjin) - Air China
Shenzhen–Los Angeles 1 weekly 777-300ER - Air China
Guangzhou–Los Angeles 2 weekly A380 - China Southern
Xiamen–Los Angeles 4 weekly 787-9 - Xiamen Airlines

YVR
Beijing Capital–Vancouver 1 weekly 777-300ER (Outbound via Shenyang, Inbound via Zhengzhou) - Air China
Shenzhen–Vancouver 1 weekly 787-9 - Hainan Airlines
Chengdu Shuangliu–Vancouver 1 weekly A350-900XWB (2 from 02SEP22) - Sichuan Airlines
Xiamen–Vancouver 1 weekly 787-9 (2 from 06OCT22) - Xiamen Airlines

SYD
Shanghai Pu Dong–Sydney 1 weekly 777-300ER - China Eastern
Guangzhou–Sydney 1 weekly A350-900XWB - China Southern
Fuzhou–Sydney 1 weekly 787-8/-9 (until 13SEP22) - Xiamen Airlines
Xiamen–Sydney 3 weekly 787-8/-9 - Xiamen Airlines

Notable major cities that have either no (or almost no) flights:
YYZ (2 weekly flights)
NYC (1 weekly flight)
PAR (1 weekly flight)
LON (no flights)
ORD (no flights)
SFO (no flights)
SEA (no flights)
WAS (no flights)

I know it's splitting hairs, but it's interesting how they've divied up the flights that do exist. And very weird city pairs and not on the airlines that you'd expect. YVR the only airport outside Asia to have four different airlines serving four different destinations. Who the heck knows how things will play out into winter and next year.

Full article here

Wow, that's incredibly low service. I wonder when China service eventually makes a comeback? S23 at the earliest?

thenoflyzone Aug 10, 2022 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9698602)
Wow, that's incredibly low service. I wonder when China service eventually makes a comeback? S23 at the earliest?

Highly unlikely. Late 2023, at the earliest, most likely in 2024 or beyond.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...years-under-xi

thenoflyzone Aug 10, 2022 2:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9698306)

Both PVG flights are questionable, EDI/MAN can easily done with 7M8, LHR flights can upgauge to 789, YYZ-BRU had always been in in scheduled but keep getting postponed. Not really sure if they'll actually start it next year.

Highly unlikely YUL/YYZ-PVG resumes next summer.

As for YYZ-BRU, considering Canada-Europe traffic is near it's 2019 level, it's very likely the route starts next summer. I'm even eager to see if SN follows through with their intention of starting YUL-BRU next summer. That was the plan, after all. AC takes over YYZ-BRU, and SN moves over to YUL, to compliment AC's service.

https://press.brusselsairlines.com/b...0International

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9698539)
Ridiculously low levels of service everywhere. Outside of Asia, Los Angeles, Sydney, and Vancouver are the top destinations in terms of frequency and airlines

They're also the 3 airports that are suffering the most, as 4x to 6x weekly service to each is a drop in the bucket, compared to all the Chinese flights they had pre-pandemic.

Like I said above, highly likely the zero-COVID policy stays in place until late next year, or even 2024. All the better, if you ask me. My local airport has been benefitting from a ton of additional flights to Africa/Europe/Asia/South America because AC can't send it's planes to PEK, PVG or HKG like they want to. Routes like YUL-DEL/CAI/MXP, and soon, CPH, have all started since 2020, and some of those were unthinkable in 2019.

China can stay locked down until the 2030s as far as I'm concerned.

Some interesting AC/YUL stats below, with the addition of CPH next June.

https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-...al-copenhagen/

Quote:

June is many months away and much can change, especially with the Far East. However, as of August 10th, Air Canada plans 25 long-haul routes to Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and South America from Montréal in the first week of next June. That's up from 20 in the same week in 2019. Its network has grown by a quarter.

More importantly, departing flights (i.e., flights leaving Montréal) have risen from 97 to 142, up by a huge 46.4%, also reflecting frequency increases on multiple existing routes. OAG shows that departing seats for sale have grown from 28,910 that week to 42,889, up by 48.3%. They've increased by a similar amount over 2022 figures.

According to OAG, Air Canada plans a total of 1,212 weekly departures from Montréal that week. This means Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and South America will have 11.7% of flights. That's a higher proportion than from its main Toronto hub (9.7%) and its West Coast hub at Vancouver (7.4%).
I just hope AC gets its shit in order for S23. It's been a shit show at YUL the past months.

Dominion301 Aug 10, 2022 9:32 PM

YYZ Q2 2022 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...811754843.html

14.6 million pax in the first half of 2022. That's in-line as I recall with about 2007 traffic levels just before YYZ skyrocketed from under 30 million to over 50 million pax a year.

thenoflyzone Aug 11, 2022 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9699345)
YYZ Q2 2022 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...811754843.html

14.6 million pax in the first half of 2022. That's in-line as I recall with about 2007 traffic levels just before YYZ skyrocketed from under 30 million to over 50 million pax a year.

Q1 was still way off the mark. Traffic picked up in Q2 (9.3 out of the 14.6 million pax to date were handled in Q2). Q3 2022 will be fairly close to Q3 2019.

Full year 2022 numbers, because of those slower 3, 4 months, will still be well below 2019, but full year 2023 numbers should resemble, if not surpass, 2019.

It should be the same at YYZ, YUL and YYC. YVR is slightly behind in that regard, due to China still closed off, but is still coming back strong in other segments such as US, domestic and Europe.

All in all, it will have been a 3 year dip for the majors, and back to normal in 2023. Not too bad, all things considered.

thenoflyzone Aug 11, 2022 2:03 AM

With that list on simpleflying, just realized YUL is also the only airport in Canada where a single airline offers non stop flights to 5 continents. Not many airports across the globe can claim that. It's a pretty exclusive list.

YYZ, of course, has 5 continents, but Africa is served by ET and MS, not AC.


Quote:

Here's a breakdown of what Air Canada plans to operate in the week beginning June 1st. It is, of course, subject to change. Routes include Milan, which restarted earlier this year after a 20-year absence.

1. London Heathrow: 2x daily (1x B787-8, 1x B787-9)
2. Paris CDG: 2x daily (1x B777-300ER, 1x B787-9)
3. Athens: 1x daily (B787-9)
4. Barcelona: 1x daily (A330-300
5. Brussels: 1x daily (B787-9)
6. Rome: 1x daily (B777-300ER)
7. Frankfurt: 1x daily (B787-9)
8. Milan: 1x daily (A330-300)
9. Tokyo Narita: 1x daily (B787-9)
10. Shanghai Pudong: 1x daily (B787-8)
11. Casablanca: 6x weekly (A330-300)
12. Copenhagen: 5x weekly (B787-8)
13. Geneva: 5x weekly (A330-300)
14. Lisbon: 5x weekly (A330-300)
15. Lyon: 5x weekly (A330-300)
16. Algiers: 4x weekly (A330-300)
17. Cairo: 4x weekly (B787-8)
18. Delhi: 4x weekly (B787-9)
19. Dublin: 4x weekly (A330-300)
20. Bogotá: 3x weekly (A330-300)
21. Keflavik: 3x weekly (B737 MAX 8)
22. Nice: 3x weekly (A330-300)
23. São Paulo: 3x weekly (B787-9)
24. Tel Aviv: 3x weekly (B787-8)
25. Venice: 2x weekly (A330-300)
The list includes destinations served in summer. Notably absent is LIM, which AC plans to resume this winter, on a seasonal basis, and is therefore not on the list. BOG and GRU are year round and so are included.

zahav Aug 12, 2022 6:02 AM

That's interesting about AC flying to 5 continents from YUL, never realized that before either. If AC ever starts any routes to South America, we'd join you before YYZ (unless AC starts to Africa before). AC is certainly asserting itself at YUL, would be curious how this is affecting TS, as they really dominated Europe before.

As for China, I honestly wouldn't even guess when a major recovery would happen, it's that unsure. It could be end of 2023 or later, they have just made so little progress in where they are now vs. 2 years ago, it's hard to see them opening properly anytime soon. As much as YUL has gained, YVR has benefited from China being closed off by gaining so many other destinations in Asia (either by AC or other carriers). Of course we lost the most due to China, but it's not like we've lost that much in terms of carriers, just traffic and frequency from China. Could definitely have been way worse.

Dominion301 Aug 12, 2022 9:21 PM

YOW's July pax traffic

Sector / Jul-21 / Jul-22 / % Change
Dom: 116,171 / 293,192 / +152.4% - this surpasses July 2010, but that's not hard with July 2010 having had 81,828 non-domestic pax.
TB: 0 / 13,328 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 116,171 / 306,520 / +163.9%

Sector / YTD 2021 / YTD 2022 / % Change
Dom: 278,434 / 1,373,110 / +393.2%
TB: 0 / 76,532 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 42,722 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 278,434 / 1,492,364 / +436.0%

Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / Jun-21 / Jul-21 / % Change
Dom: 283,120 / 293,192 / +3.6%
TB: 14,639 / 13,328 / -9.0%
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 297,759 / 306,520 / +2.9%
Avg/Day: 9,925 / 9,888 / -0.4% - so the fewer flights in July vs June resulted in a slightly lower average daily pax count, but much higher load factors. I bet June was in the mid 70s, while I bet July was in the high 80s.
2019 daily average: 13,990
Traffic recovered to 70.7% of 2019's daily average or -0.2% vs June's 70.9%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2020
Dom: 2,238,626 / +116.9%
TB: 87,774 / -46.2%
Int'l: 58,319 / -65.4%
TTL: 2,384,719 / +74.9%

thenoflyzone Aug 12, 2022 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9701377)
Traffic recovered to 70.7% of 2019's daily average or -0.2% vs June's 70.9%

Slowly getting there. Not too bad, all things considered.

==============================================

YUL posted June and Q2 results as well.

https://www.admtl.com/sites/default/...ique_VA_VF.pdf

Q2 2022 saw 4.0 million passengers, which was 79.7% of traffic compared to Q2 2019.

June saw 1,589,600 passengers, which is 86.4% of June 2019 numbers.

YTD traffic reached 6,234,000 passengers in the first half of the year, which is just ahead of YYC's 6.05 million for the same period.

zahav Aug 13, 2022 12:18 PM

I wonder why they didn't post the full update on the Stats page yet. YVR did the same, they announced total volumes before posting the actual stats. Just for PR I guess, postive news about airlines is contagious, it will help the rebound to hear good stories about airports and not the doom and gloom of Covid years and the other airport issues this year. YUL's international (non-US) traffic is definitely impressive, to the point that I think they are siphoning off Pearson's growth. Operating two hubs so close together in a small-ish population country can always be a bit iffy, but YYZ and YUL are so different and had different strengths historically. But the AC growth at YUL has been on routes that were very YYZ (just to name a few: Delhi, Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Cairo, South America, Tel Aviv, even European routes like Copenhagen). These were part of Montreal in the Mirabel days, but hadn't been for quite a while. It seems to me that although Toronto is the global hub, AC has actually been giving YUL more love. Other than Brussels in the spring, they are kind of stagnant on YYZ, which is surprising. I thought they'd be amping YYZ up before YUL, to be honest.

YVR is even getting more love than YYZ it seems like. Although China's still in the dumps and India is a no-fly zone (things that are no reflection on YVR itself, just global circumstance), AC introduced BKK, boosted Australia and New Zealand, and have been strengthening transborder and switching to more mainline. And arguably WS has axed more Toronto routes than almost any other station (a big chunk of their Encore service, their LGW service, Charlottetown..). They still have massive operations there, no doubt, but they are really a sun destination carrier now. They have so much competition from Flair and other domestic-focused airlines, their domestic routes aren't as big as they used to be. Obviously Toronto is by far the biggest domestic market in Canada, so they are always going to have a big presence, but it seems like they are in retraction mode there. AC is not in retraction mode, but they don't seem to be giving new routes to YYZ the way they are to YUL. Someone made a funny comment a few weeks ago when Top Gun was #1 at the box office and Kate Bush was in the top with Running Up That Hill, it was like 1985-86 all over again. And Montreal attracting all the international love was also very mid 80s lol!

This was not meant to be a pile-on against YYZ, not at all, nothing personal, please no angry replies from YYZers. Just never really thought about it until I looked at what was happening in YYZ vs YUL and was very surprised how different their trajectories seem. What this tells me is AC has so many routes from YYZ already, so with what equipment they have available, they see more success in new routes from YUL and YVR. I think AC has gotten into almost all the big main routes from YYZ already, so the routes left may not be as viable in the current climate. Whereas YUL was so underserved, there's more fresh fruit.

It's a totally different story than in the West, because WS is so clearly dominant in YYC, so AC isn't really concerned about splitting between them and YVR. YYC keeps LHR and FRA on AC, and some sun destinations, but that's it. So if they expand in the West, YVR is almost certain to benefit. Whereas in the East, AC has to make real educated judgement calls about what new routes are announced and from where to Europe, Africa, Middle East. Both YYZ and YUL are seen as valuable contenders, and seems lately YUL is winning.

thenoflyzone Aug 14, 2022 7:22 PM

^ several reasons as to why that is.

1. Not much room left at YYZ T1. Pre-pandemic, there was talk of reactivating the infield terminal due to this reason I believe.
2. As you said, YUL was underserved, especially internationally. That's not the case anymore.
3. AC wants to maximize 6th freedom traffic from the US to Europe. It's a priority for AC, and is therefore leveraging both of its east coast hubs in order to do it. This is why you are seeing a lot of routes to Europe and Asia flown from both YYZ and YUL. YVR also got some love in this regard, with the addition of ZRH/DUB and FRA on AC metal. No doubt they wanted the flights to capture some of the US west coast to Europe demand.

thewave46 Aug 14, 2022 7:41 PM

YYZ now benefits from upgauging aircraft moreso than new destinations for Air Canada. By increasing the number of destinations at their other hubs, fewer passengers are funnelled via YYZ. Or alternately, overflow can be moved away from YYZ, letting it focus on origin-and-departure passengers.

Maybe more secondary Europe happens from YYZ when the XLR comes on the scene. Extra narrowbodies are easier to accommodate than big metal.

zahav Aug 14, 2022 7:48 PM

Yes think you are both right. I am always surprised that Canadian airports can capture so much US to Europe traffic. There a lot of US airports with service to Europe, it's not like it's just available from one or two. AC must really be able to provide a price discount to be able to capture this

nname Aug 14, 2022 7:55 PM

AC doesn't seems to run more than 1x daily for long-haul routes except maybe LHR, CDG, etc. If there is demand to run more than a daily service, they'll try to split the routes between 2 hubs and route the traffic between one of the two hubs (maybe more to YUL, as YYZ likely have more O&D demand).

This is the case of CPH. Instead of running 10x weekly from YYZ, it was split between YYZ and YUL with 5x weekly each. I guess the same can be said about GRU, DEL, ICN.

So regard to this, this is what I think:
- Instead of 10-11x weekly YVR-SYD, AC would've run the extra flights from YYZ, except it doesn't have the plane capable of flying the route
- The next European destination from YVR is likely to be something already have daily service from YYZ (and YUL)
- When demand rebounds, YVR-NRT will not grow beyond 1x daily flight. AC will try to restart the route from YYC instead.

thewave46 Aug 14, 2022 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9702384)
Yes think you are both right. I am always surprised that Canadian airports can capture so much US to Europe traffic. There a lot of US airports with service to Europe, it's not like it's just available from one or two. AC must really be able to provide a price discount to be able to capture this

Leveraging the CAD v. USD spread helps.

The Northeastern US has seen a lot of de-hubbing over the decades, so many secondary cities that used to have direct service lost it. That leaves remaining US East Coast hubs (NYC, Boston, Philadelphia) that can be miserable to transit (Newark and JFK in New York come to mind as particularly bad examples) on the most direct path to Europe.

Coldrsx Aug 14, 2022 9:01 PM

UPX ---> YYZ to YYC today at 630am.

YYZ was BUSY for anyone checking luggage and without NEXUS, but with just carry-on and NEXUS it was less than 15mins from getting off the UPX AND passing through security.

Dominion301 Aug 14, 2022 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9701457)
Slowly getting there. Not too bad, all things considered.

==============================================

YUL posted June and Q2 results as well.

https://www.admtl.com/sites/default/...ique_VA_VF.pdf

Q2 2022 saw 4.0 million passengers, which was 79.7% of traffic compared to Q2 2019.

June saw 1,589,600 passengers, which is 86.4% of June 2019 numbers.

YTD traffic reached 6,234,000 passengers in the first half of the year, which is just ahead of YYC's 6.05 million for the same period.

Recovering, but still far lagging other airports (case in point almost 16 points behind YUL), simply because of the hyper-concentration at YYZ and YUL...especially with YOW's ability to generate 0 international pax this summer and looking the same for next. It is still beyond perplexing how YHZ and YQB have more transatlantic capacity vs pre-pandemic and YOW has none. Even YXY got FRA back this summer.

Dominion301 Aug 14, 2022 11:04 PM

ANA are moving YVR-TYO back to NRT: https://www.flightglobal.com/network...147166.article

davidivivid Aug 14, 2022 11:55 PM

YQB's june yoy numbers are out (still irritatingly not publishing the number of passengers though):

January 246.6%
February 618.8%
March 1,254.9%
April 1,305.9%
May 1,265.5%
June 948.6%

https://www.aeroportdequebec.com/en/...layout-content

thenoflyzone Aug 15, 2022 2:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9702503)
ANA are moving YVR-TYO back to NRT: https://www.flightglobal.com/network...147166.article

That article is from last January.

ANA has been flying to YVR from NRT since March, and plans to continue this coming winter season as well.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220810-nhnw22yvr

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidivivid (Post 9702524)
YQB's june yoy numbers are out (still irritatingly not publishing the number of passengers though):

January 246.6%
February 618.8%
March 1,254.9%
April 1,305.9%
May 1,265.5%
June 948.6%

https://www.aeroportdequebec.com/en/...layout-content


Pretty useless information. Not even worth posting.

thenoflyzone Aug 15, 2022 2:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9702499)
Recovering, but still far lagging other airports (case in point almost 16 points behind YUL), simply because of the hyper-concentration at YYZ and YUL...especially with YOW's ability to generate 0 international pax this summer and looking the same for next. It is still beyond perplexing how YHZ and YQB have more transatlantic capacity vs pre-pandemic and YOW has none. Even YXY got FRA back this summer.

I agree that it's very concerning, especially if you're from Ottawa, but YHZ, YQB and YXY have inbound tourism from Europe. YOW has less of that. So that's 1 aspect. It surely explains why DE, AF and 4Y serve those three, but not YOW.

Also, YOW is dependent on AC/LH for long haul service, and AC's priority is on building back its hubs at the moment. No one else will add transatlantic from YOW, unfortunately. TS and WS aren't really interested. So that narrows the field a bit. AC's hubs should be up and running at full steam come next summer, so maybe AC might resume YOW-LHR/FRA come summer 2024.

As for YHZ, there is a strong possibility that WS doesn't resume any of its european destinations from there next summer.

YYCguys Aug 15, 2022 1:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9702607)
As for YHZ, there is a strong possibility that WS doesn't resume any of its european destinations from there next summer.

That is such a shame, because nobody east of Saskatchewan would likely backtrack to YYC to pick up a European flight. WS is literally handing any Europe bound passengers from most of Canada over to AC or TS! If WS could at least hang on the YHZ Europe ops, they might get at least some interested passengers willing to connect there.

esquire Aug 15, 2022 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys (Post 9702815)
That is such a shame, because nobody east of Saskatchewan would likely backtrack to YYC to pick up a European flight. WS is literally handing any Europe bound passengers from most of Canada over to AC or TS! If WS could at least hang on the YHZ Europe ops, they might get at least some interested passengers willing to connect there.

Leisure travellers would if the price is right... if the connection is decent, backtracking to YYC doesn't really add much travel time.

I can appreciate that business travellers flying on the company dime would probably be a bit more picky, though.

I have seen from social media feeds several Winnipeg friends and acquaintances have gone to Europe via YHZ this summer. It seems to be a popular option which lets people avoid the unpredictability of YYZ. I would have certainly leaned towards YHZ as a first option if I had gone to Europe this summer, followed by YYC/YUL and then finally YYZ.

SFUVancouver Aug 15, 2022 2:33 PM

Had a fun time at Pearson on the weekend. Waited 1 hour, 40 minutes for our baggage. The flight was only 2 hours. What a joke of an airport of late.

We also took Flair for the first time. What a joke of an airline, too. We couldn’t check in online because of unspecified system issues but they provided an error code and magnanimous promise to waive the $25 airport check-in desk fee. Then we got an email about 12 hours before the flight saying “your flight has changed” but it didn’t provide any details, just a suggestion to check our reservation at Flair’s website. We tired to do so, but only got a concerning “no reservation found” result to our reservation code/last name search. We then had to use Flair's chat feature and began slogging through the pre-made FAQ prompts to get a person. Pro-tip, if you successfully initiate admittance to the live-person queue by saying "agent", it will confirm that you will speak to someone and gives you an estimated wait time (<15 minutes, so not terrible). Here's the tip, once you are in the queue, the chat will suggest additional self-serve FAQ topics to explore while you wait. If you choose one, it apparently cancels your place in the queue and puts you back to square one to re-request an agent (and new wait time estimate). When we did connect to someone live, there was a delay of up to 5 minutes between typing something and receiving their response. Ultimately, they couldn’t answer any questions about our flight or the itinerary changes but said they would have their system send us an automatically generated updated itinerary, which told us the flight was only delayed by 20 minutes. When I asked why this info wasn’t sent with the original email, which is simply the bare minimum for any itinerary change-related airline communication, and why we were unable to even access our reservation online, they simply ended the chat after a final 5 minute delay.

Arriving at the airport (Winnipeg) ~2.5 hours before the revised departure time, we found a long line for the Flair check-in/bag drop agents, which airport staff were actively managing to avoid clogging the terminal entrance after it snaked out of the holding queue. Based on snippets of overheard conversation it seems like a fair proportion of folks were unable to check in. It also appeared as if Flair hadn't provided any additional check in agents to handle the issue as only half of the check in points were staffed. Furthermore, there was no option to use the airport multi-airline self-serve check in kiosks for Flair to obtain a boarding pass and/or bag drop tags, so everyone who was unable to have checked in and/or just needed a bag drop tag had to wait together. When we eventually got nearly to the head of the line, a staff person was asking everyone if they had checked in (almost universally answered “no”) and they said that the $25 fee would only be waived if people had taken screenshots of their error message. Fortunately, we had. But the lady behind us had not and the agent said “no screen shot, no fee waiver”. I pulled up our screenshot and told the passenger the error code, but the agent sort of glared at me and reiterated that individual passengers had to provide their own screenshots and then moved farther down to the line.

Once on board, I found that my seat was dirty: a big finger-smear of something frosting-like was caked on the rear of the seat in front of me, the overhead reading light and air vent were similarly crusty, and in the seat pocket there was a bit of discarded trash. Otherwise, the in-flight product was a straight-forward LCC.

Finally, at Pearson, when our flight’s luggage took an extraordinary amount of time to arrive, and only in dribbles of one or two bags at a time, a Flair person staffing the nearby lost luggage desk had no explanation, nor any apparent access to a manager or airport liaison to investigate the delay. Our first bag took about 45 minutes to arrive, the second arrived at 1 hour 40 minutes after our flight landed. Things were beginning to get heated between the remaining passengers and the Flair person when we left.

Coldrsx Aug 15, 2022 2:44 PM

Out of curiosity, why was Flair a joke?

SFUVancouver Aug 15, 2022 3:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx (Post 9702883)
Out of curiosity, why was Flair a joke?

Updated my post, above, with an explanation. Flair's own automatic post-flight email solicited customer reviews on Google Reviews and Trip Advisor. You sure? Okay.

hollywoodcory Aug 15, 2022 3:40 PM

WS over the weekend upped YVR-PVR to a 789 for this winter. 1x daily.


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