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-   -   Sunbelt battle for #2? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240851)

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 5:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8734867)
I think a key characteristic of Sunbelt cities is that the growth is fueled in large part by accessibility of cheap, easy-to-develop land, of which the main California cities have little left (different if you count far East IE for LA I guess).

Going by this the sunbelt starts at the San Bernardino county line.

homebucket Oct 31, 2019 5:59 PM

Topanga State Park
https://westcentric.files.wordpress....pg?w=636&h=477
https://westcentric.wordpress.com/ta...ga-state-park/

Big Basin Redwoods State Park
https://www.daytrippen.com/wp-conten...k-day-trip.jpg
https://www.daytrippen.com/big-basin...amping-hiking/

Obadno Oct 31, 2019 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonman (Post 8735090)
This says more about annexation and the relationship between city and metro population growth than anything else.

Well as we all know NYC would only have 8 million people had it not Annexed a huge piece of Long Island and the Entirety of Staten Island

Oh yeah and the Bronx too.

Crawford Oct 31, 2019 6:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossabreezes (Post 8735006)
Sunbelt cities are generally looked at as attractive alternatives to move to from colder climates due to the warmer climates in Sunbelt cities, cheaper cost of living, ect. San Francisco is really not a magnet for this type of migrant.

What about San Diego? People absolutely move there for the weather, and it looks/feels like typical Sunbelt. Sprawl heaven. Also boomed due to postwar govt. military and research spending. But it has high costs and regulation, and slowing growth.

edale Oct 31, 2019 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8735074)
Below is the growth percentage between 1950 and 2010 for the primary cities of 30 of the top 31 metros as of 2010 (Riverside,CA excluded). The average growth rate of these cities combined is 207%. L.A. falls in the top half, so I think it looks very Sun Belt-y city. It looks closer to a Texas city than it does to anywhere in the NE or Midwest. OTOH, San Francisco is identical to New York. It and Seattle were the only western cities in the bottom half, but no western city was in the bottom 1/3rd.

St. Louis -63%
Detroit -61%
Pittsburgh -55%
Cincinnati -41%
Baltimore -37%
Minneapolis -27%
Philadelphia -26%
Chicago -26%
Washington -25%
Boston -23%
Kansas City 1%
New York 4%
San Francisco 4%
Atlanta 27%
Seattle 30%
Denver 44%
Portland 56%
Miami 60%
Los Angeles 92%
Tampa 169%
Dallas 176%
San Antonio 225%

Sacramento 239%
Houston 252%
San Diego 291%
Orlando 446%
Charlotte 446%
Austin 497%
Phoenix 1253%
Las Vegas 2271%

I bolded the cities that I think everyone can agree are Sunbelt-y. Looks like a pretty accurate way of identifying Sunbelt cities. I'm on the fence about whether or not to include LA. I definitely don't think SF is the Sunbelt. For one, the city boomed way earlier than the rest of the sunbelt cities, and it's a real urban, walkable city. I think in addition to the cheap, sprawling identifier for Sunbelt cities, another thing that they have in common is orientation towards cars. SF (city) definitely isn't cheap or sprawling or oriented around cars. LA isn't cheap, but it is sprawling and it is car oriented. Maybe San Jose and SF exurbs are Sunbelt (they are much sunnier than the city, which really isn't all that sunny of a place), while the city is not. And the SoCal version would be the IE is Sunbelt (maybe OC, too) but LA isn't?

homebucket Oct 31, 2019 6:15 PM

Angeles National Forest
https://www.roadrunner.travel/images...ading/7352.jpg
https://www.roadrunner.travel/magazi...-2018/page/20/

Big Basin
http://www.redwoodhikes.com/BigBasin/BigBasin2.jpg

http://www.redwoodhikes.com/BigBasin/BigBasin4.jpg'
http://www.redwoodhikes.com/BigBasin/BigBasin.html

bossabreezes Oct 31, 2019 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8735151)
What about San Diego? People absolutely move there for the weather, and it looks/feels like typical Sunbelt. Sprawl heaven. Also boomed due to postwar govt. military and research spending. But it has high costs and regulation, and slowing growth.

Orange County and south looks more traditional sunbelt, but it's not actually traditional sunbelt. This same idea could be applied to the South Florida metro region. Not ''Sunbelt'' like Dallas or Atlanta is.

homebucket Oct 31, 2019 6:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edale (Post 8735155)
I bolded the cities that I think everyone can agree are Sunbelt-y. Looks like a pretty accurate way of identifying Sunbelt cities. I'm on the fence about whether or not to include LA. I definitely don't think SF is the Sunbelt. For one, the city boomed way earlier than the rest of the sunbelt cities, and it's a real urban, walkable city. I think in addition to the cheap, sprawling identifier for Sunbelt cities, another thing that they have in common is orientation towards cars. SF (city) definitely isn't cheap or sprawling or oriented around cars. LA isn't cheap, but it is sprawling and it is car oriented. Maybe San Jose and SF exurbs are Sunbelt (they are much sunnier than the city, which really isn't all that sunny of a place), while the city is not. And the SoCal version would be the IE is Sunbelt (maybe OC, too) but LA isn't?

When I think sun belt I think sunny sprawl.

The southern and eastern suburbs of the Bay are definitely more Sun Belt-y. SF, Oakland, and Berkeley are not. OC and IE are very Sunbelt-y too.

JManc Oct 31, 2019 6:19 PM

I don't think anything in Coastal CA can be construed as sunbelt anymore. 1950, yes. Today, no. Way to expensive.

bossabreezes Oct 31, 2019 6:23 PM

^^Bingo

Obadno Oct 31, 2019 6:24 PM

In the west Climate is primarily a function of Elevation and proximity to the Ocean.

You can be in thick pine forest from desert within in an hour drive from Vegas, ABQ, Phoenix, Tucson, LA, Reno San Diego, Salt lake etc.

Parts of these cities MSA/CSA's couldn't be more different climatically. Within the Los Angeles area you can have temps inland nearing 100 degrees with 60 and cloudy on the coast and lows in the mountains in the 40's and 50's

I wouldnt rely on climate necessarily as a good gauge

More the post-ww2 suburban sprawl is what characterizes these places more than anything

sopas ej Oct 31, 2019 6:26 PM

That's fine, picking landscapes many miles away from San Francisco. I can do the same with LA and the mountain towns/ski resorts:

Idyllwild
https://ap.rdcpix.com/807080024/0988...0_h770_q80.jpg

Lake Arrowhead
https://www.pinerose.com/wp-content/...ad-Village.jpg

Big Bear Lake
https://www.tripsavvy.com/thmb/JbvNF...004ff36dbf.jpg

And then Morgan Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.1447...2!8i6656?hl=en

Santa Clara:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3803...2!8i6656?hl=en

Cupertino:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3256...4!8i8192?hl=en

It all looks like California to me.

ChrisLA Oct 31, 2019 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edale (Post 8735155)
Maybe San Jose and SF exurbs are Sunbelt (they are much sunnier than the city, which really isn't all that sunny of a place), while the city is not. And the SoCal version would be the IE is Sunbelt (maybe OC, too) but LA isn't?

Are you aware that San Francisco is one of the more sunniest cities in USA. That is a gross misconception.

Number of sunny days are not much different than Los Angeles/Long Beach coastal areas.

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8735190)
That's fine, picking landscapes many miles away from San Francisco. I can do the same with LA and the mountain towns/ski resorts:

Idyllwild
https://ap.rdcpix.com/807080024/0988...0_h770_q80.jpg

Lake Arrowhead
https://www.pinerose.com/wp-content/...ad-Village.jpg

Big Bear Lake
https://www.tripsavvy.com/thmb/JbvNF...004ff36dbf.jpg

And then Morgan Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.1447...2!8i6656?hl=en

Santa Clara:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3803...2!8i6656?hl=en

Cupertino:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3256...4!8i8192?hl=en

It all looks like California to me.



https://i.postimg.cc/FKkpVwV7/bb-simba7.jpg

Big Bear Lake is our little secret. Let them keep thinking it's a barren desert out here. The bay might be a little greener and it has the low elevation, coastal redwood forests going for it. But LA is surrounded by high country all around. You can drive right on up to higher ground and get lifted :yes:

Obadno Oct 31, 2019 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner (Post 8735261)
https://i.postimg.cc/FKkpVwV7/bb-simba7.jpg

Big Bear Lake is our little secret. Let them keep thinking it's a barren desert out here. The bay might be a little greener and it has the low elevation, coastal redwood forests going for it. But LA is surrounded by high country all around. You can drive right on up to higher ground and get lifted :yes:

"Secret" That place is packed as hell!

JManc Oct 31, 2019 7:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisLA (Post 8735257)
Are you aware that San Francisco is one of the more sunniest cities in USA. That is a gross misconception.

Number of sunny days are not much different than Los Angeles/Long Beach coastal areas.

I think it's because of the fog but doesn't that burn off pretty quickly?

badrunner Oct 31, 2019 7:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8735265)
"Secret" That place is packed as hell!

I'm a local so I can go anytime and on weekdays, it feels like I have the whole place to myself ;)

bossabreezes Oct 31, 2019 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 8735272)
I think it's because of the fog but doesn't that burn off pretty quickly?

Depends, in the summer no. In the spring, yes, but it's also constant, so there's always this mystical fog falling in over the hills into the city. The eastern side of SF peninsula gets sun, but also fog at the same time. Quite a magical combo.

That's also why SF has the coldest summer high temperatures of any major city in the US. Average highs in summer months don't crack 70 degrees in any month.

Obadno Oct 31, 2019 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossabreezes (Post 8735316)
Depends, in the summer no. In the spring, yes, but it's also constant, so there's always this mystical fog falling in over the hills into the city. The eastern side of SF peninsula gets sun, but also fog at the same time. Quite a magical combo.

That's also why SF has the coldest summer high temperatures of any major city in the US. Average highs in summer months don't crack 70 degrees in any month.

Its true, I know its a famous saying but I have been in San Francisco freezing my ass off watching 4th of july fireworks.

jd3189 Oct 31, 2019 7:49 PM

A lot of you guys are some full on purists with specific requirements that are extremely limiting.

“Real, urban cities” or whatever the hell your standard might be also exists in the Sunbelt.

Cities that aren’t doing so well economically are part of the Sunbelt.

Cities that sprawl are a part of the Sunbelt

Cities that don’t sprawl as much anymore are also part of the Sunbelt.

The Sunbelt, to me, are the southernmost regions of the country that people have been attracted to for the past 150 years or so (being even more pronounced in the past 50 years) because of various reasons connected to the weather of the region.


It’s more “sunny” in the Sunbelt than anywhere else in the country above it. That led to people and businesses that favor that type of weather year-around to come down here, especially when the air conditioner made it possible to endure that weather rather than having to endure the cold.


Almost every state in the Sunbelt has grown, more or less, for that reason alone compared to the Northern parts of the country. The NE and Midwest have culture, urban amenities, etc. The South and the Southwest (which are pretty much the Sunbelt) has a little bit of those things too, not to the same extent, but they do have them if people care to look for it. The main difference is the climate, which previously contributed to the Sunbelt not developing to the same extent as the rest of the country in the beginning.


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