No worries if we can just convince the Govt of Canada to do what they did in Quebec and fund not just a restoration but outright reconstruction of what might have been there centuries ago. Throw out the Cogswell lands plan and start with this! It would be like Historic Properties on steroids, and should only cost a few billions. :rolleyes:

I argue that Cogswell was a mistake. It is a past mistake but one that has been repeated over and over in Halifax on a smaller scale. The Doyle Block was another similar mistake that happened a couple of years ago. I am arguing that the city should start valuing its past more, implement better policies to bring heritage protection in line with similar cities, and stop making these mistakes and losing irreplaceable buildings. I am not arguing that we need to undo all past mistakes by reconstructing anything that was torn down.

Some of the funding was federal money in Quebec but a lot of it is also provincial and municipal, plus a lot of it comes down to regulation rather than funding.

We could turn this around and say: what would Quebec City have been like if they followed the Halifax route and threw out standards of heritage preservation and enhancement? Do we think that Quebec City would have become a lot more economically vibrant?

Areas like Rue St-Jean in Quebec City have buildings similar to Granville Street in Halifax. The main difference is they didn't tear down as many buildings, and the ones that are left are in better shape.

The article you cited states that it was federal and provincial money, which in Quebec means almost all federal money given how much the feds fund that province.

Yes, I just came back from a 'building museum', and it was just dead - nobody there at all...

https://i.imgur.com/HtGTawg.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/UT4gSoH.jpg?1

:haha:

It is similar in our case to Historic Properties and that part of the waterfront, which gets jammed with tourists a few months out of the year. With enough federal money something similar could be done here. But even there as can be seen from the amount of business turnover that has always occurred, it is not the greatest spot for year-round businesses. Meanwhile what we have on Argyle, a mix of new and renovated old buildings, does well year-round.

It's an interesting argument you are presenting, given that you've asserted in the past that the Argyle Street area is a failure and recent improvements would result in massive traffic headaches (which has proven to be false).

Regardless, if you are saying that the reason that Argyle Street is successful and vibrant (which it is, especially since the streetscaping project that was funded by the city) is because of the newer buildings, I think there is no logic to your argument. In fact, since you are only presenting opinions, I will do the same in that I think that Argyle Street would be equally or more successful if the old buildings had been preserved or restored to their former glory while maintaining the same business mix that exists currently.

In terms of your response to my post, I have the impression that many locals enjoy the vibrancy of Old Montreal, as I spoke to many people enjoying the area who were locals. And everybody seemed to appreciate, and be drawn to the old architecture combined with fantastic restaurants, cafés, bars, etc. It could be argued that those same businesses in newer buildings would be successful, and I agree, but being surrounded by the history and elegance of the old buildings is a drawing point that brings people in, and enhances their experience.

It's not all about federal money, which seems to be a popular misconception among detractors. The municipal government in places like these can step in and create rules, guidelines, and assistance to make it all work, but first they need to have a 'eureka' moment and realize the value of their heritage properties, especially in a city (such as Halifax) that has such a deep and interesting history. As an example of this, here is an older document from Montreal, providing support to property owners for restoring and maintaining their heritage properties:

http://patrimoine.ville.montreal.qc....glais_1-26.pdf

Halifax has improved in this respect, in recognizing the historical importance of Barrington Street and providing financial assistance for improving the streetside appearance of their buildings, but they have fallen down in many other areas.

It amazes me that you continue to repeat this statement, when in the past it hasn't resulted in a successful argument. Perhaps if you repeat it enough times it will become ingrained enough that people will start to believe it?

Halifax isn't New York City, and therefore it doesn't have a Penn Station (neither does New York anymore - which has been recognized as a mistake). That doesn't mean that we should ignore our history and not try to preserve what we have left.

I'm really glad that you continue to state your opinions because it is an indication that the old Halifax train of thought still exists, especially through the children of parents who lived through the depression and the world wars, and saw Halifax at its worst in terms of being a depressed area. In cases like what we saw in the early to mid 20th century in Halifax, practicality kicks in at its extreme, and 'old worthless run-down' stuff logically gets replaced with new stuff, even if it's of lower quality, because it is functional and cheap.

That attitude is understandable, but those days have passed. There is no longer a reason to be unable to appreciate how special and historically significant that Halifax is. It's interesting to me that people who aren't from here, or don't live here, seem to appreciate the historical significance and the charm of Halifax more than people who grew up here. You don't have to look any further than this very forum to see this.

It seems that a lot of locals have always thought that we were a lesser city because we don't have the 'big city' stuff that Toronto (or similar) has, and that we won't feel we are a 'real city' until we have that. Again, it is understandable considering the narrative that they grew up with, but it can have a really negative effect on our city moving into the future.

I still contend that Halifax needs to strive to be the best Halifax that it can be, and that means embracing our heritage and culture while embracing the 'new' and the future in a way that improves our city while not losing what makes it special. :2cents:

I believe the more accurate statement is that the various attempts made to "enhance" Argyle St were largely a waste of money and I stand by that. It was vibrant before the blacktop was painted like an argyle sock or replaced by paving stones, and it is just as vibrant now. HRM's war on the private vehicle has meant it is now useless for that purpose although the true believers continue to post shots of delivery or service trucks intruding upon what they perceive as their own private plaza. Where they expect to get their burgers and nachos from without such deliveries remains a mystery. The long-term will tell if the businesses there survive once the weather turns cold and stormy, and people are not wandering around as much.

What old buildings? Please identify some memorable stone or masonry buildings with architectural detail that would stop visitors in their tracks which have been removed from Argyle St.. The answer is that there were none. Halifax is not a city that ever had very many of those. Aside from the old stone church where TD Canada Trust now resides I can think of none. It was always a very workmanlike city with wooden buildings of minimal character for the most part. You are making a false analogy comparing it to Old Montreal.

Certainly what has occurred in Quebec is indeed all about federal money. They receive an endless river of it.

I am not sure I want my municipal property taxes being routed to preserve old run-down buildings of dubious architectural value just because they are old (if there ever were any).

To me, those Old Montreal pictures suggest that Halifax did and does have similar buildings. The buildings around Historic Properties and Granville Mall are of a similar age and level of quality. If anything the Granville Mall ones might actually be nicer.

I'm not sure there is anything like Halifax's old stone wharves anywhere else in Canada. There are a few American cities that still have them.

Which have been preserved, though most of them had difficulty finding a viable use as commercial operations due to the design of Granville Mall itself. Many of the Historic Properties buildings are unfortunately 1970s re-interpetations of what might have been there but do not manage the charade very well.

That's not an "accurate statement". It is only your opinion.

You focus too much on the extremes of social media (maybe you should spend less time on social media and actually go to the places you complain about?). Any time I visit the area I see lots of people walking (or wheeling, for those in chairs) about enjoying the pedestrian-friendly streets, not complaining or taking photos of delivery trucks. Most people understand the realities of life - like businesses need to have delivery access - but it doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to enjoy the area just the same.

There are already businesses that have survived there long-term, and there have been restaurants that have turned over a lot (common in the restaurant industry, if you pay attention). I don't see how anybody could reason that having a nicer street could affect businesses that are entertainment or service-based in a negative fashion.



The answer is that there were several masonry buildings on Argyle Street, and more ornate/elegant ones in the lower streets (like Granville and Hollis), which housed the centre of business and government.

Halifax was well-off financially early on until the shift of business to upper and lower Canada sometime in the 1800s, but it has always been a centre of military, shipping, other marine-based industries (for obvious reasons), and its history is very rich and interesting. Different from New York, Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, etc. etc. in that things were done on a smaller scale and in a way that's more or less unique to Halifax, but we shouldn't want to be or try to be those cities. I already covered this previously.

Montreal is used as an example because I recently visited there and was impressed by how much care has been given to preserve their structures and to create a vital space that people want to visit - not to say that we are the same as Montreal (though someone123 has pointed out that there were actually many similarities). The concept of respecting their heritage and protecting its structures is very much alive there, and is part of the culture - it would be a great example for us to follow, if we could get our heads out of our asses for 5 minutes.

But, you want examples of stone and/or masonry buildings on Argyle Street that have been torn down, so here's a few. Maybe not as ornate as other cities (or other areas of Halifax), but definitely typical of Halifax. If you expand your search for images outside of Argyle Street, there is no trouble to find some buildings that fit your qualifications that have been torn down.

Source of below photos

These were all on Argyle Street:
http://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com/...9t1gjvr7b6.jpg

http://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com/...jul%201964.jpg

http://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com/...61h9i17et2.jpg

http://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com/..._5005865_1.jpg

Just because it's not made of stone, a building can still have an interesting/significant history. The wooden structure next to the Saint Paul's rectory building (that was torn down in the 1980s) in the photo above, is currently home to the Auction House - a brief history at the link below:
http://www.auctionhousehalifax.com/our-story/

The same goes for the building which currently houses the Five Fishermen:
https://www.fivefishermen.com/history/

For that matter, your disdain for wooden structures is without base. One of Nova Scotia's strong points has been its wooded structures, largely feeding off the heydays of wooden shipbuilding, which was quite large in this province back in the day. It is the major reason that Lunenburg is a UNESCO world heritage site:
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/741

But... I realize this will be wasted on you because Lunenburg doesn't have the equivalent of Penn Station...

Speculation

There's way more to it than that, but someone123 and other posters have already presented enough material that you have glossed over sot there's no point in going much deeper than this.

Take a walk down Sparks Street in Ottawa and try to understand that the concept of a pedestrian mall like Granville can work. It is much longer than Granville, and is incorporating residential and office to the mix. When I was there, I found it to be a very nice place to walk and enjoy, along with many others who were likewise taking advantage of the space.

What has worked against Granville is that the north end is cut off by Cogswell, so pedestrian traffic doesn't follow that route so much, and that the streetside presence has been taken away, with only a few shops/restaurants accessible to the public still remain. Goodlife has taken away much of the west side of the street, and access to Scotia Square has been cut off. On the east side of the street, NSCAD had taken over most of the street so there was not much to draw the public in.

Maybe after Cogswell is removed there will be a chance for it to revitalize.

Which wouldn't have been necessary had the city not cleaned out the area in the 1960s due to poor foresight and lack of understanding as to the importance of our heritage.

I think the Granville area in Halifax suffers mostly because of Cogswell and because it was turned into a 9-5 office district in the 1970's.

We are starting to see more mixed use development in that area and the local resident population is returning. At the same time, areas like Barrington and Argyle have become more vibrant. When Cogswell is redeveloped and people start to live in that area I think the Historic Properties area will become livelier.

While we're on the topic, the Power Cottage is a prime example of the evils of neglect. Had the building been maintained properly over the years, the pricetag to bring it back would not have been nearly as much. Halifax was only paying to fix their own previous mistakes of mismanagement. At least they had the sense to save it and not just tear it down like many others in the past.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...tion-1.4542238

Barrington Place was stripped of its storefront retail (Now a health club fronting the street). This should never have happened. It used to be so much more vibrant with Peddlars Pub...

One presumes their business fell (as has that of many other boozatoriums, in fairness) and the spot was no longer profitable.

I agree, but I think having a health club there was a poor choice for foot traffic.

Well, in the pub's heyday the corner space was occupied by Pier One Imports, which was almost always empty and I'm sure did little for foot traffic either.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1832/...f4d1a98f_b.jpg20180805_072029_HDR by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1852/...ca8126b3_b.jpg20180823_072126 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1889/...dc38ca6f_b.jpgFlynn Flats 2018-8-24 by DwN~toWN Halifax, on Flickr

The crane went up 7 months ago....and now topped out already! This one is 10 stories at the highest level.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dowr0vqV4AAj8XZ.jpg
Source

Brick is going in on the upper floors, and the front doors and windows are going in on the Bishop St. townhouses. I never fail to be impressed by Dexel's quality of design and the efficiency of their project management.

Also, the title of this thread should be updated to Flynn Flats.

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram...57896246_n.jpg
Source

Have no fear, the red wall is not a repeat of the Dillon; it is almost fully covered up now with a ceramic tile-type product.

Glass and doors are mostly in on the ground floors.

And for you crane watchers: I got a notice in my mailbox that Hollis is going to be closed this coming weekend to facilitate the removal of the crane.

http://i.imgur.com/rUQcbbv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4ng3KhF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8UbWbe9.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4812/...1c70fae1_b.jpg20190111_124147 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7842/...895467e7_b.jpg20190116_153911_HDR by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7839/...d06ce01e_b.jpg20190129_154939_HDR by Jonovision23, on Flickr

I'm super happy with this tile cladding product they're using.

I was at first as well, but as more and more of it goes up the less I am liking it. It doesn't quite pull off being sandstone as they had hoped and the manufactured and repeated designs on the panels are very evident if you look for more than a few seconds.

I will still wait to see the final product when all the other components are added but I think this material is not well suited to replicate stone or textured patterns over a large area.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4854/...973ce038_b.jpg20190206_140443 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4803/...7e6c8c47_b.jpg20190206_162237_HDR by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7860/...dbb35ecd_b.jpg20190217_154659 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

Yeah, I was just by there this afternoon, and it kind of looks like a floor-tile pattern, mis-assembled, at a massive scale. Plain grey or white stone would have been much better. I'm pretty happy with the building otherwise, so maybe this won't end up being such a big deal.

There needs to be an effort now to try to hold on to any old buildings that are left on that street.

Yep. This is a really architecturally dense and rich area, with buildings spanning almost three centuries. It is part of a planed heritage-conservation district, which has been in the works for years and years yet still seems to be years and years from implementation.

It's usually pretty easy to tell which ones are well cared for and which are at risk. For example, those wooden rowhouses on Morris Street are always kept in good shape, but I wouldn't be surprised if the owner tries to sell or tear down the 3 storey apartment building across from Flynn Flats. It's too bad; a good restoration job could turn that into a very attractive building that would complement the neighbourhood well. The same was true of the buildings torn down for Flynn Flats.

Hopefully it will be implemented while there are still some heritage buildings left!

On that topic, have there been any updates on these two Barrington St. buildings that are at risk of demolition?
https://goo.gl/maps/QmMCVPhaUGu

https://goo.gl/maps/RJDpaZZhNT82

Actually, the 3 buildings torn down for Flynn Flats didn't look that bad, other than the standard 'modernizing' that had been done to them over the years. They really could have shone with a Hal Forbes-style refurbishing, but it's a little too late for than now... on both counts unfortunately.

https://goo.gl/maps/2wJ34rFp7z52

I know the city and owner were trying to reach a decision that would preserve them in full. The developer applied for demolition three years ago as of last October, so he can legally demolish them now--but that period ends as of this October, after which he'd have to apply for a new permit, and wait another three years. I haven't heard anything about it, and four months after demolition was permissible both buildings are still occupied, so I guess that's a good sign, thought not definitive.

As for the building across from Flynn Flats, yeah, that would be an atrocious loss. It's pitiful that the conversation district for here has been in a holding pattern for so long.

The Barrington development is interesting. It's possible to imagine a version of that development that would be a big net win. 1343 Barrington has little publicly visible heritage value and there's a large underused lot in behind. If this stretch had been a bit better preserved it might have been a candidate for complete preservation but as it is it could use some sympathetic new development.

Dexel projects tend to be decent too so there's no reason to assume they'll build something awful.

I remember going to a public meeting on this, which Louie Lawen attended. He seemed genuine about wanting to preserve the two heritage buildings, but only if he could get some additional height behind them that he said was necessary to make the project economical.

He also talked about preserving and even restoring the middle building to something like its original state. That would be amazing, but I'm pretty doubtful it would happen. I'll be happy just to see the two still intact ones restored and preserved, with something new in-between and behind. And if the city can't arrange a compromise, honestly, I say give him what he wants. Until we get better legislation on heritage, property owners/developers hold all the cards. The city can play hardball, but they're guaranteed to lose.

Thanks for that. It sounds encouraging that they are thinking about preserving them. Fingers crossed!

Maybe they showed this in the meeting but here's what it used to look like:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmLHp3yUYAAcb4e.jpg:large
Source

Wow! What a change/loss! I don't recall seeing that pic before.

It doesn't seem like a realistic expectation that this facade would be recreated, though it would be fantastic if it were the plan.

Just looking at it again... what a bizarre conversion. To see the old building behind a featureless rectangular facade really makes me wonder what they were thinking!

https://goo.gl/maps/M8tuRaVhRLA2

That is an astonishing loss. I always wondered what the deal was with the old brick and roof behind such a generic front. I really hope these buildings stay as they're a big part of the neighbourhood character.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7875/...225590a2_b.jpg20190313_154021 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7811/...3b8eba05_b.jpg20190313_154107 by Jonovision23, on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7815/...409bc4b2_b.jpg20190313_153620_HDR by Jonovision23, on Flickr

Hmph... this one is actually turning out better than I thought it would, at least in photos. Been too busy to swing by and have a look in person, though.

It seems to me that Louie Lawen builds tasteful building exteriors every time!

https://live.staticflickr.com/7868/4...6a4fd2f6_b.jpg20190407_125055 by Jonovision23, on Flickr