I'd like for you to expand on that if you could. Toronto is American in the same sense that Canada is generally culturally American writ-large. If anything it's more 'world city' [sic] than American.

:)

That isn't the total reason for the Argos demise but certainly is part of the reason

I think that was more a counter to your purposeful trolling of the CFL thread. Until recently, I've never denied TFC's popularity in stadium, but they certainly have limited appeal outside the stadium. Why then was the MLS/TFC thread merged with the National team thread where I was posting news and the NT thread had activity. The MLS/TFC thread was dead, no one was posting there.

Yes, there were people saying that, I'll give you credit for not being crazy enough to do so however.

That's not quite true. I have no problem with FCM or the Caps or even TFC for that matter, even less now that they're finally starting to grow some Canadian talent. My issue was with many of their zealot "fans" who actively campaigned against the Argos only when they moved to BMO. I would never have a problem with you defending TFC but I did have a problem with you trolling the CFL thread (to which others agreed) and using your mod powers to delete and edit posts that went against your agenda. I ceased having an issue with you when you stopped doing that and I didn't have to screenshot everything I posted.

So you mostly haven't agreed with his past postings?

Moreso his posts in the political threads i disagree with a fair bit

I agree with you there. The enemy of my enemy...how does that go? :)

Most other teams in Toronto have been able to survive and either grow. In fact, i'd argue that all teams are either as popular or more popular now than they've ever been - except for the Argos.

The thing about big cities is that if something isn't good, whether it's a restaurant or a store or a sports team, it doesn't last very long. Cities don't sit around on things they don't like. There are a million other things to do. The Argos don't have the space in Toronto anymore because the market changed and grew. More teams entered the space and sucked up the marketshare that the Argos used to hold. That applies to the Jays, Raptors, and now TFC.

The Toronto Rock are a good lead to follow for the Argos, I guess, in that they've relocated and found a home in Hamilton. I imagine the same will happen with the Argos if MLSE give up on the project.

The CFL thread was recently literally playing a guessing game of what the Argos home attendance would be and frequently entertain the idea of the team relocating. You can call my posts 'trolling' if you'd like but it seems like this sort of discussion permeates throughout the CFL community regardless of whether or not I visit. At least now more CFL fans are willing to accept that widespread changes need to be brought in to right the course of the league.

How would you quantify this?

This forum is not an accurate representation of real life, or the influence of sports teams in real life.

Lots of people will say crazy things. Projecting those things onto reality is up to you.

I see.

Oh, Toronto is definitely "world city" in outlook though Torontonians often conflate "global" with "American". Well, everyone does that to some degree given the planetary ubiquity of US culture, but no one does it quite to the degree Torontonians do.

While this goes against a certain commonly-held view there, I also don't find Toronto has a "world city" vibe that significantly surpasses that of any number of other cities, including NYC, London and Paris of course, or even arguably Vancouver or (gasp! :eek:) Montreal here in Canada.

I'd wager that a city of millions effectively on the border with the US with many connections to US cities would inherently be connected with the US in the same way that most of Canada's popultion is tied to the US. Anglophone New Brunswick is more American than Toronto, and i'd say these days that rural Alberta/Prairies is more American than Toronto.

We'll agree to disagree.

I believe your sphincter is now making pronouncements for you. No offense intended.

The toronto rock option makes the most sense for the Argos move to Hamilton or London and get better stadium dates and a market base that is more cfl friendly and easier for the team to grab a larger chunk of the market rather than the crowded toronto market that appears permanently lost

And yet the Argos are the only Toronto team playing in an all Canadian league (save CPL) where York is doing even worse. I always read how Toronto has "outgrown" the CFL. I see it as Toronto being like a teenager who is embarrassed to be seen with his parents, now really who is the ahole there, the kid or the parents?

Why is it that this sounds like a condescending white Liberal telling black people how they should live. Like them, I think CFL fans aren't so naive and/or stupid to not know what is going on around them.

Time for a new answer, that spin is getting old. :)

I wish you did but I have my doubts, old habits die hard, you were doin' ok for a while. :)

People are under no obligation to go to CFL games out of some kind of either national pride or nostalgia. The product needs to be appealing in order to be successful. This becomes more true the larger a city becomes.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

When in doubt just accuse them of spin!

And i'm the one that's condescending.

I was just going to say something like this.

The only teams that are "growing" in Toronto are teams that are playing in leagues dominated by US clubs.

Everything that is uniquely Canadian: CFL, CHL, CPL, U Sport, Vanier Cup, Memorial Cup, Brier, etc. struggles terribly in Toronto.

Even in sports where there is really no equivalent US competition seen as "better", like the Brier or the Memorial Cup, Toronto doesn't show up.

It is what it is.

People always say this (you hear it about Quebec sometimes even - quite ridiculously) but it's basically just ascribing political leanings one doesn't like to the entire US, and then establishing a linkage with the part of Canada one feels most closely espouses them.

By this measure even parts of rural New South Wales or Southern France would be "more American" than Toronto.

Stadium dates aren't an issue for the Argos, they had their dates before TFC this year IIRC.

Here's an interesting question that just came to me and I've never seen discussed. Could MLSE own the Argos and operate them from another location, ie Halifax, Kitchener etc. Pros and cons?

Where's Aunt Esther when you need her. Haah Glory, Hallelujah!

Quebec hasn't hosted a Brier in 34 years. Must be because they're too American! :P

They could but would likely be a terrible owner based on how cheaply they run the Argos cheaper than a minor league baseball team. Personally I rather see the Argos move to tim hortons field keep the Toronto name and have it similar to the NY jets NY giants at metlife in New Jersey and have someone like Bob Young and now Jim Lawson and the stelco group run the team

Cfl hall of fame is in Hamilton there's train connections between the hammer and Toronto and the CFL can keep a Toronto presence while in a cfl friendly market more to themselves and not having to fold a team.

I don't like the idea of being nearer Hamilton diluting the market, and about the only Pro I can see for MLSE ownership would be the bills would be paid, but that's also a pretty important consideration. Then we get into the whole idea of leaving the Toronto market and all the national advertising/marketing considerations as well.

It's obvious you would go there.

Unlike Toronto and Ontario, Quebec doesn't lay claim to Captain Canada status. It's almost a point of pride to be indifferent to such things.

Toronto OTOH actively claims this Canadian leader role.

It wasn't obvious that I was joking?

Yes.

Most posts on here I don't take (very) seriously.

Hamilton has a cfl newish stadium that can provide corporate suite revenues and concessions. Also Hamilton is just 45 mins from Toronto and West jet uses Hamilton as their eastern hub. This way no new stadium needs to be built also.

Why would Hamilton Sports Group agree to play host to an MLSE team, particularly at the risk of their own properties in the Tiger Cats and Forge?

Places like London, Kitchener, or Barrie are more appealing options in the event that the Argos are jettisoned from Toronto.

I don't think MLSE will keep the Argos long term as i think Tannenbaum really wants to get in on the xfl. I forsee in the next year or two they will likely give the keys to the club back to the CFL to find a new owner. Those other cities you list are decent markets but lack of a stadium is a big issue that needs to be resolved

Yup

That would be the ultimate in American wannabeeism, getting involved in a third rate league. Christmas Tree may have liked the idea but I can't see the board going for that one. How many US football leagues since the AFL have survived and prospered. What's that Marigold? None?

I agree but based off his opinions recently and the lack of resources he's put in the Argos xfl sounds like the most mlse type of league they would want to join. What indicators has he given that he wants to grow the Argos same for bill Manning all I have seen is them giving up on the Argos

And they should be publicly called out for that.

Probably for the best they give the team back and get dedicated owners to run the team properly which is why young/lawson group i would prefer as they are a proven cfl ownersship success story

At this point I am more for the stability of paying the bills. I remember the quote from Jeff Hunt where he described how enough time had passed where the young people had no preconceived notions over an Ottawa football team (good or bad) and would be easier to market to, this has proven true. So I would rather have to rebuild the brand than settling for someone with less than deep pockets. The Hamilton group can't own two teams (yes I know about Braley) but we all know the cans of worms that opened.

What ideas do people have for the Argos that MLSE has supposedly not been doing? They've already marketing the team around town, had themes nights, are spending and getting players within the salary cap, etc.

I get complaining about big bad MLSE/Toronto because the team has no traction but never really see any suggestions for what MLSE should actually do that they aren't already doing.

I believe they only have 2 people staffed on their ticket office. The example they should follow is Doman in BC get a big music act opening night of the season to generate a buzz have a block party pre game. Other nights should be themed like edmonton had a stand with Ukraine night drew 30000 for a preseason game. Sell the unused upper deck seats for 5 bucks if you have to just to make it not look so bad on tv and generate some consession stand revenue. There are many things they are not doing that other cfl teams are doing. Even montreal has gotten corporate sponsorship up from 800k to 2 million and gotten season tickets up to around 6000 they are making progres

Their owner came out and basically pooped all over the CFL. He's more upset his XFL idea didn't go through with the league so now I'm sure he's less inclined to want to make an effort by making money with the team.

Others have said, not just on here, that MLSE doesn't do a good job.

1. Literally no fans think MLSE has done a good job owning the Argos.

2. The Argos aren't relocating out of downtown Toronto.

Which is why I asked what people would suggest MLSE do instead of what they've tried.

They may not have much of a choice, frankly.

I think it's worth noting that Tanenbaum, who dropped his role with the CFL recently, was also part of MLSE's efforts to get the World Cup to come to BMO.

Also worth noting that Calgary voted with Toronto wrt CFL working more with the XFL.

What should they be doing differently?

MLSE's ticketing department covers multiple teams.

So people buy cheap tickets to one game for a music act and leave at halftime. The Argos already kind-of do this by cramming in as many home games as possible during the Exhibition in August, where Argos and TFC tickets gain access to Exhibition because the stadium cannot be accessed without going through the grounds.

In ticket selling in most industries there's usually a standard by which your tickets are valued at. Your product is valued at whatever your tickets are selling for, and consumers usually assign that value to your product. If movie tickets are always $10 then consumers expect that.

The problem with setting your tickets at $5, or another value incredibly low, is that consumers will come to expect that at all times, and will be unhappy with any increase in value. It puts the team in a tough position when it comes time to either maximize revenues or raise prices. Tickets need to be set a value and then held there until demand really, really exceeds value and supply. Edmonton giving away tickets for free to 12 and under is fine today but consumers will come to expect this in the future and will put the team in a tight bind if demand ever increases or revenues need to be raised.

tl;dr if you set your product at a low value you'll get consumers at that value who won't budge on that value.

MLSE isn't desperate for corporate partners.

https://3downnation.com/2022/07/20/w...rtened-season/

Winnipeg Blue Bombers post $2.1 million operating profit for 2021 despite shortened season

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers have announced an overall operating profit of $2.1 million for 2021.

The team generated $32.8 million in revenue over a 14-game regular season in 2021, including $2.4 million in revenue from hosting the 2021 Western Final. This was 90 percent of what the club generated in 2019 over the course of an 18-game regular season.

“We are pleased with our overall financial results for 2021,” said president & CEO Wade Miller in a statement. “It is a testament to the continued support of our season ticket members, corporate partners, and fans. The COVID-19 pandemic and the related restrictions that were implemented in 2020 had a detrimental impact on the club. With the support of our community, the club was able to weather this storm, get back on the field to defend our Grey Cup championship and become back-to-back Grey Cup champions for our incredible fans.”

Winnipeg’s total operation expenses were $30.7 million in 2021, including $886,000 in expenses related to COVID-19. The team was able to host games at full capacity in 2021 with a proof of vaccination requirement in effect for those in attendance.

The Blue Bombers entered into a new agreement with Manitoba’s provincial government and Triple B Stadium Inc. including the establishment of a capital fund. The government initially contributed $10.2 million and the team will contribute annually to the fund. The contribution for 2021 was $576,000.

The team was also entitled to a recovery of the 2019 annual excess cash payment of $2.2 million from Triple B, which was used for stadium operations expenses incurred during the pandemic. The club also accessed government programs to assist with the impact of COVID-19 on the club’s operations and received government assistance totalling $3.2 million from the various programs available to organizations that experienced significant revenue declines.

The club recorded an impairment loss on the loan receivable from Valour FC Inc. of $1.3 million as the Canadian Premier League team’s estimated future cash flows are uncertain.

“The Winnipeg Football Club has a strong history of profitability. Our stakeholders continue to play an important role in the success of our club, both on and off the field,” said Miller.

As long as new owners are willing to pay MLSE rent - and make no mistake, the CFL will pay for it if they aren't - they will continue to play at BMO. They aren't leaving downtown. It's necessary for the league to have a presence there.

I don't think so anymore advertisers realize argo games draw miniscule fans and Argos games don't produce big TV ratings as tgey are usually some of the smallest. Argos relocation to London or Kitchener would produce better attendance and probably better tv ratings too.

Which new owners? Would love to know who would want to own the team once the CFL is rid is MLSE's supposed mismanagement.

If MLSE is giving up on the team what makes you think they would want to retain them as a tenant? Neither Lamport nor Varsity are really feasible for CFL teams unless the league wants to drop its gameday quality and amenities substantially in order to stay in the market.

^^

MLSE's inability to raise the Argo's profile in the GTA just proves to me that MLSE's success is totally due to hanging onto the coattails of fat US TV contracts and not on any marketing ability within the company.

See:

So?

I'm asking you what you think MLSE should be doing that they're not already doing. All I hear are people using the same complaints without providing any sort of solution.

Maybe cfl tries merging with xfl in 2 years time not sure if it would improve attendance or not it did generate a lot of buzz when the idea was floated during covid. Cfl would need 5 teams on board with it.

I'm not from the GTA so I have no idea why the region has abandoned an affordable form of entertainment that showcases both Canadian and US talent with a long history behind it. I'm also pointing out that an organization that bills itself as the premier sports marketing entity in Canada seems to be incapable of raising the profile of a team that has no association with a sports juggernaut based in the United States.

Maybe Canadians just aren't into purely domestic leagues anymore and need US participation to make it seem legit. :???: Which is a sad commentary on our national self-esteem.

Perhaps the issue isn't so much MLSE not doing its job but that the CFL or gridiron cannot be marketed and/or successful in Toronto in the way that CFL fans are expecting.

Saying that Toronto is too 'American' or that Canadians prefer a league with US teams is simply a coping mechanism for the steady decline of the CFL at this point. Leagues like the CHL continue to exist (and yes I know there are US teams) despite the supposed unwillingness of Canadians to be supportive of purely domestic ventures. I think it's weird to throw the American angle in as a reason when so many CFL players are American to begin with and something the CFL relies on for talent.

I think its Toronto wants star players and because cfl salary constraints is unable to sign stars like it could in years gone by is a big reason for the decline in Toronto. Back in the 70s they could sign some of the best players out of US colleges and draw 45 to 50 thousand fans a game. Even in the early 90s Rocket Ismail they were averaging 36,000 a game and Ricky Williams in 2006 30,000 fans a game. If the CFL could sign even 1 star player per team would likely generate a lot more interest.

Yes the CFL has really dropped the ball on selling itself to Canada. But the growing chorus of Canadians who hate the CFL because it doesn't give million dollar contracts or that a US college team could easily beat a CFL team just prove they know nothing about the game and talent level.

I'm also pointing out that CPL, CEBL and even CHL teams are having difficulty in filling their barns as well. Finally that our "National Sports Networks" are more than willing to buy access to mainly US sports products instead of putting a mediocre amount of effort (like showing highlights) in promoting Canadian entities.