SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   City Discussions (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   Berkeley bans natural gas in new buildings, the first U.S. city to do so (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240269)

dimondpark Sep 10, 2019 4:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor23 (Post 8682364)
not that anyone ever visited Berkeley for its food

Oh God the ENTIRE CULINARY WORLD has visited Berkeley for it's food as California cuisine was born there.

SFBruin Sep 10, 2019 5:04 AM

This seems odd.

mSeattle Sep 10, 2019 7:19 AM

I don't see how there would be a problem with this if California has major wind, geothermal, and solar energy infrastructure.

accord1999 Sep 10, 2019 8:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mSeattle (Post 8682677)
I don't see how there would be a problem with this if California has major wind, geothermal, and solar energy infrastructure.

Wind doesn't always blow, geothermal is only a fraction of California's electricity generation, and solar dies just as your oven and range are most likely to be used (among other things) hence the infamous "duck curve" which will be further exacerbated by the mandate on rooftop solar and more challenging when Diablo Canyon is retired.

https://i.imgur.com/opYWaL7.png

craigs Sep 10, 2019 8:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mSeattle (Post 8682677)
I don't see how there would be a problem with this if California has major wind, geothermal, and solar energy infrastructure.

PG&E's October 2018 release shows electric power generation is 33% renewable (solar, wind, geothermal, biomass and waste, small hydro), 27% nuclear, 20% natural gas, 18% large hydro, and 2% market purchases. They make a point of putting coal into the chart, and it's 0%.

floor23 Sep 10, 2019 9:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimondpark (Post 8682622)
Oh God the ENTIRE CULINARY WORLD has visited Berkeley for it's food as California cuisine was born there.

only someone from California would think that Berkeley is significant in the culinary world. Cali has great restaurants throughout the state, but Berkeley isn't anything special.

And if Berkeley was anything important in the culinary world then this wouldn't even be considered. Any place that would consider itself to have "world-class" culinary scene would never consider this. Try passing a law like this in Asia, France, or Southern Europe and heads would roll.

Its very obvious from reading this thread who cooks professionally or at home in a serious manner and who doesn't. Anybody that cooks knows that gas is 100 times better than induction. Turning on a gas stove gets you an instant, constant flame that you can adjust visually.The flames produced by a natural gas stove also cook food more quickly and evenly, because the flames spread themselves along the bottom and sides of the pan. There are a lot of dishes out there that can't be cooked without gas stove. Try making a curry or stir fry on an induction stove (you can't). Watch any food network show and you will never see any chef who takes himself seriously caught dead with an induction stove top.

My guess is restaurants will just use portable butane cookers that are common in Asia. I have a few commercial grade ones at 15,000 BTU and the work great (no gas line in my building).

montréaliste Sep 10, 2019 12:20 PM

Totally agree with floor and chef on this topic. You don't need to be a pro to realize how limiting electric cookers are, esp. in Asian cooking. Try frying rice without proper heat going up the sides of a wok. Good luck w that.

Inkdaub Sep 10, 2019 12:32 PM

Sounds like a good idea to me. I will just have to trust the restaurants of the world to figure it out. People often find changes to be awkward but this(The move away from fossil fuels) is one that is absolutely necessary. So we will have to adapt. This is likely one of the easier changes we will be faced with in the coming years.

dave8721 Sep 10, 2019 1:23 PM

We get along fine with no natural gas in any buildings in South Florida.

chris08876 Sep 10, 2019 4:26 PM

I'm proposing an experiment:

1) Observation: Folks in Berkeley seem to be triggered easily, at anything.

2) Hypothesis: The degree of triggering could result in death or severe injury in which the degree of triggered nature and subsequent death/injury probability for "X" subject is exponential depending on how large the trigger factor is.

I wonder what would happen if the following scenario occurred at Berkeley;

Parameters of the experiment:

Experimental Group: A pick up truck (F350 Ford), with black diesel exhaust, no muffler, no catalytic converters, rolling coal every 2 minutes... with pro MAGA bumper stickers, assault life stickers on the back, "the south will rise again" slogans on the truck, the truck is raised, playing outlaw country, fume pipe near the cab, the old banned Arkansas flag displayed on small flag poles extending from the sides of the cab on both ends, and a bumper sticker that states "coal is the future", pro-life, pro-marriage, "god will punish those that go against scripture" slogans, and finally... some hay in the cab that hasn't been tied correctly, and is thus, going all over the road.


Now with the truck, same truck, but replicated in the following cities: Berkeley, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, and NYC.


What I'm curious to learn from this experiment are the indicators of "time" , magnitude of injury, trigger factor, how many folks get triggered, and to what means of out-lashing do they resort too; verbal, violence, twitter/S.Media volume influx, and I want to measure in units of m³ the volume of tears, and how many barrels (assuming 50 gallons) the tears could fit from conducting the experiment over the span of 5 hours.

Disclaimer: Some drivers understand that this might be a one-way mission.


I think this experiment could further help us understand anthropological, and the human psychology even further in 2019.

pj3000 Sep 10, 2019 4:39 PM

Someone has to take the lead in pushing technological innovation.

If it happens to be a poster-child bastion of liberal hippy thought like Berkeley (which also happens to be a major center of technological innovation), so be it.

homebucket Sep 10, 2019 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8682309)
Under Berkeley's law, building owners would still be able to apply for exemptions: https://www.npr.org/2019/08/05/74505...t-climate-push

This. It's starting with homes and small apartments. After energy efficiency analyses, it may include commercial spaces, but restaurant owners will be able to apply for exemptions.

But of course, everyone here overlooks this and just has to inject their personal political views into this discussion.

chris08876 Sep 10, 2019 4:41 PM

^^^^

I just wonder what the cost will be to both residents and businesses to make the transition.

I apologize for the troll post, I know... I just had to get it off my mind... sometimes a good idea comes to mind due to creativity.

I mean, possibly rolling it out over "X" years would of been appropriate.

California has always pushed the frontier of change, but I feel at the expense (cost) to the residents or general business environment.

Transition is key I feel. Like imagine if you have a business that relies on natural gas, and now... you have all of this expense at once. Even with exceptions, all it does is create bureaucracy, more paperwork, and makes it even harder to do business.

pj3000 Sep 10, 2019 4:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 8682911)
^^^^

I just wonder what the cost will be to both residents and businesses to make the transition.

I apologize for the troll post, I know... I just had to get it off my mind... sometimes a good idea comes to mind due to creativity.

I mean, possibly rolling it out over "X" years would of been appropriate.

California has always pushed the frontier of change, but I feel at the expense (cost) to the residents or general business environment.

Transition is key I feel. Like imagine if you have a business that relies on natural gas, and now... you have all of this expense at once. Even with exceptions, all it does is create bureaucracy, more paperwork, and makes it even harder to do business.

It's not a transition. It's for NEW construction.

There will be no transition. It doesn't need to be "rolled out". It is inherently being rolled out by focusing on new construction. Goddamn, fucking read for 2 minutes.

chris08876 Sep 10, 2019 4:48 PM

I did read it. And I think the time frame for new construction is too short of a notice. In a state that has a housing crisis, this is just further adding to the giant stack of bs that developers have to go through.

pj3000 Sep 10, 2019 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 8682931)
I did read it. And I think the time frame for new construction is too short of a notice. In a state that has a housing crisis, this is just further adding to the giant stack of bs that developers have to go through.

It's a lot easier and cheaper to build all-electric. This is not some added burden on "developers" as you're trying to make it out to be.

sopas ej Sep 10, 2019 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor23 (Post 8682364)

not that anyone ever visited Berkeley for its food.

???

I guess you've never heard of Chez Panisse, Alice Waters, and the birth of California cuisine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chez_Panisse

Berkeley has some good ethnic restaurants too. My partner and I have even made it a point a few times when we visit San Francisco to go into Berkeley and eat at a very good Himalayan/Nepalese restaurant.

homebucket Sep 10, 2019 5:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8682958)
???

I guess you've never heard of Chez Panisse, Alice Waters, and the birth of California cuisine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chez_Panisse

Berkeley has some good ethnic restaurants too. My partner and I have even made it a point a few times when we visit San Francisco to go into Berkeley and eat at very good Himalayan/Nepalese restaurant.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was talking about Berkeley in the context of bigger CA cities like SF and LA. But yeah, Berkeley has an excellent food scene for a city of its size, and a storied history and influence, as you alluded to.

sopas ej Sep 10, 2019 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef (Post 8682619)
The problem is the nature of the heat. When you turn a gas burner up or down you get an immediate change in the temperature of the burner. With a standard electric range the heating element gradually heats up and cools down. This means it is easier to have precise control of the temperature of your pans with gas. When you are working a saute station having your pans at the temperature you want them is important in cooking things correctly. I've worked on electric ranges before. The challenge is that you have to anticipate the speed at which they heat up or cool down, it is much more difficult and throws off the timing of cooking. Also they will still cook your pan even after you have turned them off. This means that you have to remove your pan from the range and find a place to put it while you are doing other things. That little bit of time is a big deal when you are cooking 8 or 12 pans at once. It is easier to be able to turn off the gas and leave it there. Cooking on an electric range in a restaurant is possible but it is about twice as difficult as working a gas range and requires completely relearning how to cook saute.

Out of curiosity, how did people do this in centuries past, when people cooked over open fires or used wood-burning stoves?

dimondpark Sep 10, 2019 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor23 (Post 8682703)
only someone from California would think that Berkeley is significant in the culinary world.

Only people not really familiar with the culinary world and the evolution of fine dining in the US would say such nonsense. Please stop talking.


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.