Actually, this brings up a good point.

California was not part of the US until 1850. It was Mexico beforehand. California has Mexican history, of course, but absolutely nobody would consider California to be ''Mexico.''

History is static but culture undeniably changes. Which is what is happening in Virginia at this very moment.

What is "southern status"?

Why is the 19th century the only part of history that matters? Why wouldn't other (more recent) periods of history also matter?

I think that if in more recent history, Virginia behaves more like a Northern state (culturally & politically), for a prolonged period of time, it will make more sense to group it with the Northeast.

I'm not sure we're there yet. Obviously the borders of any cultural region will tend to be more transitional culturally compared to the heartlands of those cultural regions, and that's true with Virginia.

But while Richmond or Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach are less "Southern" culturally than the rural deep South, that's true of most big southern cities (Atlanta, New Orleans, Charlotte, Raleigh even Nashville).

I think a lot of people defining "Southern" by voting Republican or being "backward." The fact is region plays actually a very minor role in US election patterns - it is not Canada or Belgium. They're pretty much "demographic-driven."

Texas was part of the Confederacy. Oklahoma wasn’t a state but some of the tribes in Indian Territory sided with the Confederacy.

I agree with the first two paragraphs, but disagree with the third. The only reason Virginia is lumped in with North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia is because of the old, antiquated Confederacy connection people keep peddling.

From a "human connection" perspective, Virginia is culturally, economically, and socially tied to the North. Northern Virginia is an urban appendage of the North (no different culturally from Maryland, which everyone treats as obviously Northern). And like a chain Richmond is linked to Northern Virginia, and Hampton Roads is linked to Richmond.

That's the Virginia urban crescent. And with the growth of Virginia, that urban crescent is coalescing into a single urban region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...egaregions.png

Conversely, there are very few ties between Richmond and Raleigh (not even a rail connection, which wasn't even on the radar until recently). In fact, there's a gigantic mental wall between the two, because from Richmond to Raleigh (2.5 hours) there's a whole lot of nothing. I could see Virginia as part of the New South if its urban landscape were a part of the "Piedmont Atlantic" megaregion above. But Virginians don't orient South, but North.

^ stop posting that stupid fucking map

I've been all over Virginia. That state still oozes the South. It's cultural which should never ever go away and I suspect it won't beyond the NoVa area...which even that still retains much of its southern roots. Along with DC. I think we need to move past the stigma of the south = backwards/ confederacy.

"Demographic-driven" in what sense? Although whites tend to vote more Republican a lot of the whitest states are fairly liberal (Minnesota, Vermont), while Republican states like Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana and Florida are among the ones with the most non-whites.

Not that presidential election party preferences are the only things that should be looked at, Mississippi and Montana are both very "red" states but Montana is more about Libertarian small government conservatism while Mississippi is much more socially conservative.

Parts of Florida did actually fight for the Union against the Confederacy. The only part of South Florida that was populated at the time (Key West) stayed with loyal to the Union and was an important union base against the confederacy, basically allowing the union to blockade the South and prevent the South from doing much business in and out of the Gulf of Mexico.

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

110%. I hate when people make where they are from the most interesting thing about themselves.

Exactly!:tup:

I agree as well. To me, the South is a geographical region of the US. That's what's it was, is, and always will be. That geographical meaning encompasses the different cultures within that region. In that sense, places like Virginia, Florida, Texas, etc are Southern despite not having the "Southern" culture in a complete sense anymore.

Since the South is mainly defined geographically, it can literally develop any way it wants and add to its history, just like all the other regions of the country.

So did parts of Western North Carolina, which led to Confederates committing war crimes against Union loyalists at events such as the Shelton Laurel Massacre.

Since you brought it up, regional cultural identifiers are also disappearing in New York. The New York accent is fading just as fast as the southern accent.

Yup, I live in New York and the accent is not common in the under 40 crowd. The only place that still has an extremely marked accent in the region is Long Island, lots of young folks from there still have a strong LI accent.

If it's a reference to geography, then Virginia is clearly northern, as it's on the northern half of the East Coast. This argument has been made a dozen times already and no one has bothered to consult a map before making it?

I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.

That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.

It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.

I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

But Florida is Southern, even the southern portion which was watered down by Cubans and Yankees. Get a little bit outside the Miami metro and it reverts back to as it was

You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"

Apparently yes.

No. I never said any of those things and certainly wasn't trying to imply that especially since I'm a southerner myself. You're assuming that's what I meant. Now when I said southern status maybe I should have said culture instead. Anyway, many gave their opinions without making a big deal out of the topic and I've gotten the answer/answers I was looking for. Like I said before thanks to all who contributed and may you all have a great day.

Maybe you and Will's statement s weren't directed at me specifically but I was not trying to imply southerners were uneducated, backward or anything like that. My question was about the state culturally since it has attracted so many transplants from areas outside of the south.

In general I'd agree, however Virginia is a bit tougher to pin down as it's geographically part of the transitional mid-Atlantic region. In particular, because its population is skewed to the north, there's an argument to be made that it (increasingly) functions as an extension of the Bos-Wash corridor, which is firmly "Northern".

If the NOVA suburbs were to comprise a majority of the state's population, a case could very well be made that it's not really "Southern" anymore.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lation_map.png

Was West Virginia "less southern" than Virginia in 1988?

West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.

People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.

It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.

Thanks for your opinion and how you explained it.

Really? I've heard them say things like people in Shreveport are more like an extension of east Tx.

I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

They'd be much, much wealthier for sure (aka, their welfare state would be subsidized by Nova). Politically, they'd be no different than they are today. The Appalachian parts of Virginia, for example, behave no differently than their West Virginia brothers.

Except for Virginia(s) having 2 Senators instead of 4.

It also depends whether the definition of "Southern" changes. But in order for that to happen most of the South needs to be on board.

For example in the case of "Cajun" the definition has evolved to eliminate from the belonging requirement any knowledge of French or associated culture in order to be considered part of it. The definition of Southern or even Québécois could very well be similarly "dumbed down" (so to speak, sorry) at some point.

I'm not sure where in this discussion the Mason-Dixon Line began, but Delaware is not south of the Mason-Dixon Line; it's actually east of the Mason-Dixon Line.

There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?

Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.

Well, let's just distill things a bit here.

So, people are saying that there is a geographical and historical South, and a cultural South. If that's the case, then what, exactly, is this Southern culture -- and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include big cities, aggressive drivers, Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans, subzero winter temperatures, and all the rest?

Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.

Ditto Miami, bit that opens up a whole other can of worms about what's "southern" when you start throwing South Floridians into the mix.

My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.

The only time "bless your/his/her/their heart" is not an insult is when you're referring to a child, or someone with intellectual disabilities, and usually one who has injured themselves. Of course, if you're referring to a child who is ugly, annoying, or stupid, then it's as much of an insult as when you use it with anyone else.

It'd be the same, but the residents would have access to better in-state colleges.

Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.