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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

blueandgoldguy Nov 10, 2018 9:14 PM

good news for the CFL. TV ratings for the regular season increased this year by over 4%.

http://3downnation.com/2018/11/10/cf...olid-increase/

With the exception of Winnipeg, every team saw an increase in ratings. The most pleasant surprise is Montreal, despite their awful record. This is probably partially attributable to the Manziel-effect.

JHikka Nov 11, 2018 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8375295)
good news for the CFL. TV ratings for the regular season increased this year by over 4%.

Conversely, the league's average attendance continues to drop, this year by roughly 800 (~3%).

CFL regular season average attendance, by year:
2014: 25,285
2015: 24,713
2016: 24,690
2017: 24,644
2018: 23,856

Notably, Montreal went from 19,522 to 17,332, and Calgary moved from 27,381 to 26,340. Both are new decade-lows for the teams.

Although the CFL seems to have stopped its ratings bleed it still has an issue with diminishing crowds in most of its markets. I'm guessing two dates in Mexico next year will be used to offset Alouettes and Argonauts home dates.

elly63 Nov 11, 2018 7:42 PM

TFC attendance has gone down by a thousand/game and ratings are still too low to be published with actual numbers (despite reports of a small increase). This coming after a championship season.

Berklon Nov 11, 2018 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8375842)
Conversely, the league's average attendance continues to drop, this year by roughly 800 (~3%).

CFL regular season average attendance, by year:
2014: 25,285
2015: 24,713
2016: 24,690
2017: 24,644
2018: 23,856

Notably, Montreal went from 19,522 to 17,332, and Calgary moved from 27,381 to 26,340. Both are new decade-lows for the teams.

It's actually worse than that if you don't fall for the bullshit attendance numbers for Ticat games. They always manage to report no less than 23,000 in attendance even though they clearly have about 3,000-4,000 empty seats most games.

JHikka Nov 11, 2018 8:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8375858)
TFC attendance has gone down by a thousand/game and ratings are still too low to be published with actual numbers. This coming after a championship season.

Not going to bite on this one. I shouldn't have to highlight this too often but there's more going on than simple TV viewers and raw attendance. For the sake of this conversation it's valid to point out that the CFL franchises rely on gates and TV more than the MLS franchises do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon
It's actually worse than that if you don't fall for the bullshit attendance numbers for Ticat games.

Most sports teams fudge attendance numbers with different handout and distribution models.

Acajack Nov 11, 2018 8:29 PM

The Tiger-Cats' season and advance ticket sales, and corporate market penetration are actually pretty good. It's not impossible that a lot of those empty seats are no-shows for tickets that have already been sold. It's rare that you see big sections at the edges of the stadium that are empty at THF, and empty seats tend to be scattered all over the place.

Acajack Nov 11, 2018 8:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8375842)
Conversely, the league's average attendance continues to drop, this year by roughly 800 (~3%).

CFL regular season average attendance, by year:
2014: 25,285
2015: 24,713
2016: 24,690
2017: 24,644
2018: 23,856

Notably, Montreal went from 19,522 to 17,332, and Calgary moved from 27,381 to 26,340. Both are new decade-lows for the teams.

Although the CFL seems to have stopped its ratings bleed it still has an issue with diminishing crowds in most of its markets. I'm guessing two dates in Mexico next year will be used to offset Alouettes and Argonauts home dates.

I actually thought the CFL had turned a corner a few years ago but while things are somewhat better that might have been a bit premature.

There is a bit of a decline or at least stagnation in interest in pro sports (especially attending in person) among the traditional demographic, that has hit even the NFL for example.

Of course for the CFL this is probably only part of the story, plus this type of thing is more problematic for them given the state of the league.

Berklon Nov 11, 2018 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8375888)
The Tiger-Cats' season and advance ticket sales, and corporate market penetration are actually pretty good. It's not impossible that a lot of those empty seats are no-shows for tickets that have already been sold. It's rare that you see big sections at the edges of the stadium that are empty at THF, and empty seats tend to be scattered all over the place.

Yea, they may be sold and just not used - but at some point there'll have to be a decision made on whether to continue buying tickets if they're going to go unused. Plus it takes away from the atmosphere which can turn off people from attending future games.

Hackslack Nov 12, 2018 3:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8375882)
Not going to bite on this one. I shouldn't have to highlight this too often but there's more going on than simple TV viewers and raw attendance. For the sake of this conversation it's valid to point out that the CFL franchises rely on gates and TV more than the MLS franchises do.


Most sports teams fudge attendance numbers with different handout and distribution models.

What source of revenue pays for TFC’ huge payroll? I mean 1 player on TFC makes more than an entire CFL game, yet TV ratings aren’t good, I believe seeing as I hadn’t seen 1 post showing TFC ratings, which tells me they must be disappointing. They do get good hate revenue, as they did win the cup last season, but correct me if I am wrong, TFC didn’t have a single sellout this year. What is their average ticket price?

I believe they are valued at something like $200 million, but my question is, how?

JHikka Nov 12, 2018 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8376168)
What source of revenue pays for TFC’ huge payroll? I mean 1 player on TFC makes more than an entire CFL game, yet TV ratings aren’t good, I believe seeing as I hadn’t seen 1 post showing TFC ratings, which tells me they must be disappointing.

MLS' TV contracts are worth a combined $90M USD/year. That works out to roughly $5M CAD/year for TFC if split evenly amongst franchises. TFC makes more than a CFL team per year on its TV contract with about a quarter of the viewers if they're shared equally. This doesn't take into account initiatives MLS has regarding streaming, mobile activation, and those sorts of things. I should note that TFC's inclusion/exclusion on American TV deals may be hazy given that Canada has a different rights agreement in place with TSN/TVA, and those rights fees aren't publicly disclosed.

Shirt sponsor (with upcoming sleeve sponsor) can be a decent amount, along with general league-wide sponsors (jersey outfitter, Adidas, pays MLS $117M a year).

As with other soccer leagues worldwide, TFC can make a profit (or loss) on player purchases and sales as well.

MLSE is also sinking costs into the team in order to be competitive on the field. They're far above the league average payroll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8376168)
They do get good hate revenue, as they did win the cup last season, but correct me if I am wrong, TFC didn’t have a single sellout this year. What is their average ticket price?

According to the Montreal Gazette, it's $45 CAD.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/s...nual-shortfall

As far as I can tell TFC reports actual tickets sold instead of tickets distributed as attendance for matches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8376168)
I believe they are valued at something like $200 million, but my question is, how?

Franchise values are almost always speculative. They're based on a number of different factors including total revenues, total cash flow, and future projections of those figures therein. Owners are paying upwards of $150M for expansion MLS franchises, so that naturally increases the inherent value of currently-existing franchises.

elly63 Nov 12, 2018 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8376168)
I believe they are valued at something like $200 million, but my question is, how?

There is no how, they're not. They're valued at whatever someone is willing to pay for them. And after MLSE, I can't imagine anyone paying those type of dollars for TFC. The TV ratings are beyond bad and have ranged from 38k a few years ago to 95k during their championship season. Just have to wonder if after this season the millennials will be moving on as reality starts to set in and the honeymoon ends.

mistercorporate Nov 12, 2018 7:41 AM

Are you serious? Noone's moving on, the 1,000 drop in average attendance was in terms of regular season games. TFC played several Concacaf Champions League games in Toronto (and made it all the way to the finals, a franchise first), overall tickets sold and overall attendance is a franchise record this year.

blueandgoldguy Nov 12, 2018 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8375842)
Conversely, the league's average attendance continues to drop, this year by roughly 800 (~3%).

CFL regular season average attendance, by year:
2014: 25,285
2015: 24,713
2016: 24,690
2017: 24,644
2018: 23,856

Notably, Montreal went from 19,522 to 17,332, and Calgary moved from 27,381 to 26,340. Both are new decade-lows for the teams.

Although the CFL seems to have stopped its ratings bleed it still has an issue with diminishing crowds in most of its markets. I'm guessing two dates in Mexico next year will be used to offset Alouettes and Argonauts home dates.

The Mexico thing is ridiculous and I doubt it will find traction.

I actually think attendance will continue to decline next year as well. I can see Montreal dipping below 15,000 per game regardless of Manziel. Last I heard, their season ticket base was 10,000 last year. I can see that dropping be a few thousand at minimum for 2019. It certainly doesn't bold well when the franchise announced they would bring back inept managers like Kavis Reed and Joe Mack. I guess no one else wants to work for Andrew Wettenhall.

blueandgoldguy Nov 12, 2018 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8375869)
It's actually worse than that if you don't fall for the bullshit attendance numbers for Ticat games. They always manage to report no less than 23,000 in attendance even though they clearly have about 3,000-4,000 empty seats most games.

The seats are sold so it does not matter. Of course, no-shows could be a cause for concern in the future as the likely owner of those ticket (corporate) may give pause to purchasing the following season if they go unused.

blueandgoldguy Nov 12, 2018 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8375882)
Not going to bite on this one. I shouldn't have to highlight this too often but there's more going on than simple TV viewers and raw attendance. For the sake of this conversation it's valid to point out that the CFL franchises rely on gates and TV more than the MLS franchises do.


Most sports teams fudge attendance numbers with different handout and distribution models.

Actually MLS Teams rely on gates far more then CFL teams. The TV contracts are very small and the team salaries are quite a bit higher than CFL teams. There are at least a few articles out there discussing this with some questioning whether MLS is nothing more than a Ponzi Scheme. Teams are relying on ever larger expansion fees to limit losses and break even.

As of right now, Montreal is losing 10 - 11 million per year thanks to one of the worst stadiums in the league, with limited high-end seating options while Vancouver is one of the lowest revenue teams in the league due to their existing relationship with BC Place. Decent alternative revenue sources would stem the tide but up to this point, MLS is very limited in that regard.

blueandgoldguy Nov 12, 2018 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 8376306)
Are you serious? Noone's moving on, the 1,000 drop in average attendance was in terms of regular season games. TFC played several Concacaf Champions League games in Toronto (and made it all the way to the finals, a franchise first), overall tickets sold and overall attendance is a franchise record this year.

Bottom line is their regular season attendance declined from last year. Guess they won't be expanding the permanent capacity to 40,000 any time soon per your predictions.;)

mistercorporate Nov 12, 2018 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8376856)
Bottom line is their regular season attendance declined from last year. Guess they won't be expanding the permanent capacity to 40,000 any time soon per your predictions.;)

They will, and in time for the 2026 World Cup. They're already on record that they will oh ye of so little vision. All my sports predictions have come to fruition regardless of the haranguing I was getting from the people in this thread, and they will continue to prove accurate. Just watch me.

EpicPonyTime Nov 12, 2018 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 8376882)
They will, and in time for the 2026 World Cup. They're already on record that they will oh ye of so little vision. All my sports predictions have come to fruition regardless of the haranguing I was getting from the people in this thread, and they will continue to prove accurate. Just watch me.

Didn't you used to predict the 2028 Olympic Games would be in Toronto in your signature?

mistercorporate Nov 12, 2018 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8376893)
Didn't you used to predict the 2028 Olympic Games would be in Toronto in your signature?

That wasn't a prediction, that was a desire, and a concept I promoted. Predicting Olympic cities is a crapshoot and has more to do with internal politics which I'm not privy to.

blueandgoldguy Nov 13, 2018 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 8376882)
They will, and in time for the 2026 World Cup. They're already on record that they will oh ye of so little vision. All my sports predictions have come to fruition regardless of the haranguing I was getting from the people in this thread, and they will continue to prove accurate. Just watch me.

oh, yeah?!:haha:

Like the Summer Olympics being held in Toronto in 2024 and then 2028? I remember you had that in your signature. Or how about all that momentum being built for an NFL Stadium and team in Toronto? What happened there? Crickets...

I doubt permanent seating for the World Cup will be 40,000 but keep dreaming the dream I guess.


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