Block 23
Here is a new thread for everything occuring on Block 23. :)
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Thanks Obadno! Great enlarged pic! I haven’t seen it that way. More impressive!!!
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Has it ever been determined if these are the final renderings or is it possible that they will go higher with the residential? With all the activity and demand downtown, you'd think at least 20 stories wouldn't be out of the question.
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I found a massing diagram of a taller office section and I would guess thats the best we can hope for. http://dtphx.org/wp-content/uploads/...nt-webcrop.png As you can see from the diagram, the building is only about 15 stories but it has high ceilings. In the original (and from what we know probable) massing the building is only 4 floors but its as tall as the 9 story office building across the street because of its 15 foot ceilings. In this massing above its more like 15 stories with the equivalent height of a ~25 story office building for the same reason. Im hoping, with the continued downtown demand and shrinking office vacancy, Red takes the risk of developing a larger office building. Considering they finished citiscape in 2009 during the depression, they might see the stronger economic forecast and take a risk on this. |
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Anyone remember when CityScape was new, and they built a temporary sales office? It was located where the dirt has been removed in the second picture that fawd took.
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Bit of a delay because they found an old foundation on the site and are preserving it for photographs prior to proceeding.
https://i.imgur.com/NEJZIwI.jpg |
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Also, will depending on how deep they dig be telling of how tall the office portion of the project will be? |
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It's going to be nice to see that nasty parking lot disappear forever. I gotta say that this project has really grown on me. At first, I wasn't happy with the height but it's going to have an awesome street presence if built like what we see in the renderings with the buildings spanning across the whole lot like that. Much nicer than cityscape.
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The larger massing was shown to the City to show that the office portion is being built to sustain future height.
This is essentially a 20-story residential tower with a block-wide podium; even that tower is unattractive given how wide it is. The worst part is the ground floor plan, though. 90% of 1st St and Jefferson will be dead walls from the Fry's, where shallow retail bays could have been placed to integrate it and make it, well, urban. The space along Jefferson and 2nd st for residential amenities is also out of place with Colliers and TSA next door. |
Tonight Fox 10 News at 9 is doing a story tonight on the artifacts found so far during the archeology dig so far.
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Fry’s in Downtown Phoenix breaking ground in April
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With a new very moody rendering: http://azbigmedia.com/wp-content/upl...apartments.jpg |
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For anyone who wanted an update on the archaeological dig occuring at Block 23:
http://www.azfamily.com/story/350381...autostart=true Interesting stuff... |
So this is interesting: http://azbex.com/minor-amendment-rev...-for-block-23/
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Maybe they have realized the apartment market is over-saturated and don't know if they necessarily want to build them.
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I don't mean this to sound insulting to anyone it's more just a "hey did you know?" type of comment. People building these apartment buildings have no interest in owning them long term and running them, they're just developers looking to cash out and sell to a REIT. If they think the product will be hard to sell in a year or two years, they aren't going to build it and I think we are getting to that point right now within this high end market. There's money to be made in the lower end products that everyone is overlooking but the land cost and construction cost at this location is too high to make any low end product pencil. |
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Also, the supply of apartments in general is rapidly increasing, but the supply of high-rise apartments is still very limited. You only have CityScape and 44 Monroe. Sure maybe The Stewart will pan out, maybe One Central Park East will pan out, but supply of high-rise apartments is not near saturation levels and still command a premium, as evidenced by the sale of city scape apartments. |
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http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/...hoenix-9219082
"The Fry’s footprint on the ground floor will be about 200,000 square feet, and the office space is being built above it, which means the developer will include 50,000 more feet of office space than first planned." Didn't think they'd be altering the development to reduce the apartment phase. "But the City’s investment could pay off big time, according to financial impact numbers calculated by its department of economic and community development. Those calculations indicate that Block 23 will likely generate $76.5 million in sales tax revenue during the course of its 50-year agreement with the City." This is why the people that bitch about GPLET's piss me off. They don't comprehend the bigger picture and think that everything is 'unfair' |
While New Times is hardly the source I go to for news, this is both believable and exciting. Can't wait for this to start going vertical.
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Sales taxes and property taxes are not apples to apples comparisons in the following respects:
I'm not a big supporter of the Goldwater Institute, nor do I have a strong opinion on any of these specific GPLET issues. I just want people to understand how these tax incentives work and make arguments for or against based on sound logic and analyses. |
Very good points, Nick.
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Good news, groundbreaking next week with all components on track !
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http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...-downtown.html |
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A positive note about GPLET is that it might help something get built. if nothing gets built, the property owners are going to pay more tax as budgets increase. I think of the property at mcdowell and central that sat vacant for over 25 years not providing property or sales taxes. I think don't like the GPLET because of the length of the GPLET. 10 years would be more reasonable. As downtown becomes more popular maybe the GPLETs can go away. Not so simple as good or bad. |
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Here's a good analysis: Quote:
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Anyway, stating that "the land didn't produce tax revenue before" is a weak argument that, even if true, would encourage antisocial behavior by rewarding bad actors (vacant land bankers) by giving them a government handout (property tax breaks) to develop the land. Quote:
In the alternative, a better policy might be to raise property taxes on vacant land. This will provide the same incentive to develop without having to give a handout to those landowners and developers. It will also give a break to nearby residents in that they won't have to shoulder the additional costs of city services that arise from a GPLET. Some jurisdictions have tried this (i.e. Houston), and as far as I can tell, it has worked to encourage development and discourage land bankers. |
Wait. What has changed in terms of the office space? 50,000 square feet is easily fit into the 3 originally planned floors.
A massive 200K big box is just not appropriate for downtown. Look at the CVS windows at CityScape and imagine those running 3/4 the length of 1st Street... how... urban. Every grocer in big cities hides these walls with shallow retail. I also don't get why RED hates Jefferson. A 3rd consecutive block of loading docks and garage ramps planned. Without the residential tower, this is a total miss. I actually think the renderings look great; but, that's if I pretend 1st Street, 2nd Street, and Washington have much more active ground floors than they do, and with the hope that one day, a hotel tower will rise on 1st St/Washington. |
I stand corrected then. This still does not make sense to me though. If you are RED, and you don't have enough confidence to building housing above downtown's first grocery store, then how would you have confidence that the store would survive? Especially with such little housing in the area? In addition, as mentioned, they sold cityScape Apartments for a record deal.
If you don't take advantages of one of the few places residents can be added in the immediate area to support your Fry's store, it's a bad investment to build the project. Fry's will cancel their lease within two years and nobody will lease a space like that downtown. Yes, I'm sure they built in heavy penalties for terminating the lease early but it won't be enough to make the project profitable. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Idiots. I no longer support this project. Would rather see something on the scale of what's proposed in Tempe in the Roosevelt area. BTW - I'm quite sure that Tempe project will not happen. Whole Foods is struggling mightily and is for sale. |
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Since when was this project lacking the apartments the article from last week said it's a go and it's increasitng the size of the office space
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No one can make Fry's honor their entire lease term, they may have signed a very long term lease but if they stop paying the rent and move out (or get locked out) then RED will have to attempt to pursue them for lost rents and it will go to a judge. Having 300 apartments on top of it doesn't make or break Fry's but it definitely makes it easier... I deal with leases every day of my life, I promise you having a lease signed with Fry's provides ZERO security the store will be there any certain amount of time. And the poster above me is correct, that space will be very, very difficult to lease again. |
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• 50,000 square feet of commercial space, to include a grocery store • About 300 high-rise residential units (RED puts that number at 330 now) • 150,000 square feet of office space for technology- and innovation-focused tenants • 1,000 parking spaces located above and below ground But on April 5, the Phoenix City Council approved changes requested by the developer to allow for “greater market flexibility.” Now, development plans call for at least two of the following uses: office, commercial, or residential — instead of all three. And possible use for a hotel is specifically excluded. The new specifics look like this: • At least 50,000 square feet of grocery store space. • At least 150,000 square feet of office space • Approximately 1,000 above and below ground parking spaces. The most obvious change is removing the requirement that the project include residential units. But plans to include the grocery store remain. “The project details in the city ordinance are a minimum requirement for the development,” Moloznik says. “The project will include a 55,000-square-foot grocery store and 200,000 square feet of office restaurant, retail.”" - http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/...hoenix-9219082 I still do not necessarily think this means the apartments are canned, it just means RED is smart enough to be aware the apartments may be a bad idea and want to put themselves in the best position should they choose not to build them. |
Anyone who gets news from the Phoenix News Times needs to get their heads checked. Seriously.
Here are the FACTS in the Section 201.1 amendment: 1) Project is still described as a 'Mixed-use high-rise development project' 2) The Project still has a projected total gross square footage of approximately 500,000 square feet, NOT including parking. 3) Minimum square footage for grocery: 50,000 4) Minimum square footage for office: 150,000 Let's all put on our thinking caps here: 50,000 + 150,000 = 200,000 Which leaves 300,000 square feet. |
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Also, lets try not to be a little nicer to each other. :tup: Your tone was not missed. |
This new article from DPJ today references the 330 apartments. I guess we'll just have to wait and see in the next day or so. It breaks ground on the 13th and I'm sure more updates will be provided by local media coverage.
http://downtownphoenixjournal.com/20...-break-ground/ Quote:
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Guys.......... the Block 23 development 100% still includes the residential tower. Literally talked with Moloznik (VP of RED) this morning. DT Phoenix can definitely still support more residential units - we're not even close. |
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