Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 9062187)

I don't even think many die-hard football fans in Manchester really care to tune into a random Chelsea or Arsenal games as a comparison.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9063330)

NBA finals ratings down 50% with Lakers and Lebron in them, Stanley Cup ratings lowest since 2007, NFL ratings down between 11% to 38% a game depending on matchup this year. The combination of no fans in stands giving games far less energy on tv,tv market flooded with all sports playing the same time and a presidential election and massive amounts of social justice/woke messaging turning off many conservative fans has made the sports market very different than what it once was.

Originally Posted by esquire

It's funny that people are less interested in TV sports given that there are generally fewer entertainment options now than usual.

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9063373)

You should note that these are for US figures and thus don't really apply all that much to this thread. As i've pointed out previously these declining figures are more or less due to competing sports and not because of whatever theory you've decided to trot out. NFL Week 3 figures were equal to 2019.

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9063373)

You should note that these are for US figures and thus don't really apply all that much to this thread. As i've pointed out previously these declining figures are more or less due to competing sports and not because of whatever theory you've decided to trot out

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9063674)

You've come up with some whoppers in the past to justify your agenda but this one is venturing into Flat Earth Society and Climate Change Denial territory.

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9063674)

You've come up with some whoppers in the past to justify your agenda but this one is venturing into Flat Earth Society and Climate Change Denial territory.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9063727)

Apparently Blue Jays playoff fever failed to result in even a small sneeze as Blue Jay playoff ratings did not even register in Canada.

https://torontosportsmedia.com/2020/...ation-pt-deux/

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9063686)

I was going to say so myself too he seems to think Conservative sport fans don't exist or something and that ratings declines are related to any issue under the sun except for the liberal social justice messaging turning off millions of fans oh no that would never happen? He must be too cloistered with his Toronto minions to ever think outside the Toronto bubble when it comes to things as there are people and opinions outside the GTA that he never wants to hear or see and just puts the blinders on.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9063686)

I was going to say so myself too he seems to think Conservative sport fans don't exist or something and that ratings declines are related to any issue under the sun except for the liberal social justice messaging turning off millions of fans oh no that would never happen? He must be too cloistered with his Toronto minions to ever think outside the Toronto bubble when it comes to things as there are people and opinions outside the GTA that he never wants to hear or see and just puts the blinders on.

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9063998)

And when they do have to go head-to-head against these other sports in a highly competitive market? Canadian viewers are given Dallas and Tampa Bay. No wonder ratings are down. :haha:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9064018)

I take your point re: the crowded TV sports marketplace this past summer and into the fall, but on that note above, you would think that by now Canadian hockey fans would have come to terms with SCFs involving two American teams as this has been the case in 21 of the last 25 years. I mean, there is a generation on the cusp of maturing without any recollection of seeing a Canadian team in the finals, let alone winning the cup.

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 9064065)

What are we even talking about here? The NFL just posted its best week 3 ratings in 6 years.

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 9064065)

What a surprise it's coming at the end of summer as people are winding down their extended quarantine getaways and new restrictions appear to be on the horizon. Anti-social justice warriors must have just put away their outrage for the fall.

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 9064065)

On one hand we have the biggest league in the world playing at its usual uninterrupted time, and on the other we have 3 leagues massively disrupted and now competing for the first time simultaneously with each other and the NFL juggernaut. What does Occam's razor tell us about the likely cause here?

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9064527)

This thread isn't about US numbers. Period.

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 9064552)

it's an issue of humanity.

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9064547)

It is when YOU want it to be.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9064592)

As to the social justice issue melding into sports I think it turns off many fans because it is young millionaire athletes in their 20's with very little education and life experience lecturing others on very important issues that have many layers of complexity to them. I think people especially in 2020 were looking to sports as an escape from the news not more of it and last I checked these athletes were paid millions of dollars to entertain fans with their athletic ability not lecture them on politics. I much rather hear and take much more seriously the point of view of black pastors, police officers and black business owners than that of millionaire athletes who just randomly walked off the job protesting and what did that accomplish? Black doctors, police officers, business people, trades people walking off the job protesting now that is something worth listening to but oh wait they still went to work and did their job.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9064592)

As to the social justice issue melding into sports I think it turns off many fans because it is young millionaire athletes in their 20's with very little education and life experience lecturing others on very important issues that have many layers of complexity to them. I think people especially in 2020 were looking to sports as an escape from the news not more of it and last I checked these athletes were paid millions of dollars to entertain fans with their athletic ability not lecture them on politics. I much rather hear and take much more seriously the point of view of black pastors, police officers and black business owners than that of millionaire athletes who just randomly walked off the job protesting and what did that accomplish? Black doctors, police officers, business people, trades people walking off the job protesting now that is something worth listening to but oh wait they still went to work and did their job.

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9064610)

You know I really didn't want to get into this topic because the sides are so polarized and neither will cede any ground or appreciate another's point. I often don't agree with you but your post was truly inspiring and insightful. POY candidate in my opinion. The real victims are the ones not being talked about.

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 9064626)

Couldn't you say the same thing when athletes lecture about donating to charities, or wanting us to honor veterans, etc? I mean, they're young millionaires athletes with little education and life experience - what do they know about cancer and other diseases or about serving their country in the military?

You don't think these black athletes have first-hand knowledge about racism? You don't think they were ever exposed to it in their lifetime? Getting pulled over by cops for nothing more than being black? Just because they make good money doesn't mean they haven't experienced what others are protesting against.

And athletes and entertainers get the most amount of exposure. That's why they're used to sell products in commercials and get people to donate to charities (which no one seems to have a problem with). Like it or not, a doctor or trades person isn't going to get nearly the same amount of exposure for any cause.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9064629)

I agree with your first point the other 2 points are valid but I think should be done off the court and similar to how Ali and Jim Brown handled it in the 60's where they did interviews and press conferences but they did not have it meld with their profession while boxing or playing football.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9064592)

As to the social justice issue melding into sports I think it turns off many fans because it is young millionaire athletes in their 20's with very little education and life experience lecturing others

Originally Posted by thurmas

still have not seen any Canadian NBA playoff ratings since the Raptors lost out to the celtics

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9064653)

I stopped reading here.


If you're not going to read other posts in this thread with these figures then i'm not sure how to even proceed with bothering to reply to your posts in the first place. Raptors playoffs were up 10% this year on average versus 2019.

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9064659)

?huh I did not say Raptors I said what are the NBA playoff ratings in Canada since they got knocked off by the Celtics in round 2. There has to be some numbers measuring the NBA ECF and NBA finals ratings in Canada?

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9064752)

Based on purely anecdotal experiences, i.e. what I see and hear around me, I'm inclined to agree with Acajack's take. I don't think any kind of social justice-related backlash is likely affecting the ratings much, if at all, in Canada. But I could definitely see it having an impact in the US where the culture war lines are much more clearly drawn.

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9064759)

Plus, the vast majority of Canadians also agree with the stand taken by American pro athletes.

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9065797)

Really?

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9065797)

Really?

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 9065808)

Actually no. the VAST majority of Canadians agree with Trump. The saviour of American western imperialism.

Originally Posted by J.OT13 (Post 9096777)

OSEG could bail on Lansdowne Park partnership without city help

Give Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group access to reserve funds and renegotiate partnership, say city staff

Joanne Chianello · CBC News · Posted: Nov 04, 2020 10:28 PM ET

The business group that runs Lansdowne Park's commercial sector and owns the sports teams that play there may not survive without some immediate help from the city, according to a report released late Wednesday.

The COVID-19 pandemic has wreaked havoc on the various revenue streams of the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG). Restaurants struggle to host diners, and "for lease" signs hang at stores in the commercial area it runs. Gathering limits mean the teams it owns — the Redblacks, Ottawa 67's, Ottawa BlackJacks and the Ottawa Aces — can't sell tickets to fans. No concerts or other events can be held at TD Stadium until next year.

"OSEG is not in a position to weather the impact of the pandemic under the current conditions" of its public-private partnership with the city, according to a report submitted to council by city manager Steve Kanellakos.

According to the report, OSEG expects to collect 75 per cent of its rental income in fiscal 2021 and that "rents will take five years to get back to pre-COVID-19 levels." And with no ticketed events allowed in the foreseeable future, OSEG is forecasting a 60 per cent plunge in revenues for next year.

OSEG's cash flow is low, and it needs to renegotiate a $104-million loan in the next two years.

"The worsened financial projections due to the pandemic will make that difficult, putting them at a very real risk of having default be their best business decision," according to the report.

To help OSEG survive, city staff recommend the following:
Give OSEG access to $4.7 million of reserve funds to help it operate in 2021 and refinance its loan, to be paid back over life of its partnership with the city.
Extend the life of the city and OSEG's partnership by 10 years to 2054, presumably to give OSEG more time to recoup some costs.
Forgo the city's half of the cash flow from retail operations it would have collected at the end of the partnership period.

"Urgent action is needed to provide OSEG with more flexibility immediately," states the report.

Opening door to public money

In addition to approving the recommendations, staff want to work with OSEG on options to bring more people to Lansdowne in a post-pandemic era.

Taxpayers have already spent $210 million on Lansdowne, including $135 million to renovate the stadium and another $75 million for the city-run urban park, which includes the Horticulture Building and the Aberdeen Pavilion.

It's unclear if these new negotiations would open the door to more public money being spent at Lansdowne.

The report suggests that OSEG and the city should assess aging infrastructure at Lansdowne, such as the stadium's north stands, and wants to look at increasing the density of the site, "including affordable housing."

A working group would be comprised of OSEG members, the city's senior managers and a number of councillors including Capital ward Coun. Shawn Menard, who represents the area where Lansdowne is located.

The group would report back on the options for Lansdowne by the spring of 2021, and would include public engagement.

City has no expertise running retail, sports teams

It's not a surprise that the city is recommending the bail out.

If OSEG defaults, the city would be left holding the bag for all of Lansdowne's commercial, sports and entertainment business — for which it has no expertise. The city would also be responsible for outstanding loans.

Over the long term, an OSEG default would result in losses of as much as $407 million to the city, according to the report.

However, according to the city's chief financial officer, extending the partnership by 10 years could help the municipality avoid costs between $4 million to $21 million because OSEG would continue to be responsible for operating and maintaining the commercial and entertainment sections of Lansdowne, instead of the city.

City to get no return from 'waterfall'

The city entered into a complex 30-year financial partnership deal with OSEG in 2014, known as the "waterfall." The partnership calls for the city to retain ownership of the property, while the business group operates the retail and entertainment district until 2044, at which time the entire site would revert back to the city.

Meantime, OSEG would be responsible for all extra costs of operating the site, including the stadium and arena.

Under the plan, OSEG was supposed to inject $55 million into Lansdowne over the life of the partnership, but it would also get a return on that investment. And in the latter years of the partnership, the city was also supposed to make money from the deal.

It hasn't worked out that way.

Even before COVID-19, OSEG was having money problems. Over the last several years, it has had to shell out for additional unforeseen costs, and hasn't attracted as many visitors to the site as it had hoped. OSEG had never broken even.

In April 2019, residents heard that the "waterfall" would generate $60 million less than expected over its 30-year life, and the city would never receive its expected $62 million of accrued interest. OSEG would also likely not recoup its $102 million of capital investments.

Addressing the immediate effects of COVID-19 restrictions, as well as the expected prolonged recovery phase, OSEG will end up injecting $192 million into Lansdowne — almost four times as much as it had planned under the original deal.

The OSEG partners include Minto chairman Roger Greenberg, Trinity Development founder John Ruddy, developer William Shenkman, and John Pugh who — among other things — founded e-commerce firm The Object People.

The city's finance and economic development committee will discuss the recommendations at its meeting on Nov. 12.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ium%3Dsharebar

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9097027)

Is OSEG the first significant pro sports group to seek public assistance? The teams around here have been pretty well silent since the pandemic began.

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9097027)

Also, what's happening with the north stands at TD Place?

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9098493)

There's no concrete plans at the moment. Both the arena and the North Stand need significant work in the near-term to remain functional.

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9098555)

Are there any problems that are obvious, or is it more behind the scenes structural-type stuff? Considering the structure's age, I wonder if it may simply be reaching the end of its lifespan?