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PHX NATIVE 929 May 26, 2010 9:33 PM

Intellectually dishonest? False statements? Point them out in detail, I beg of you.

Of course, it's easier to go the libbie route of lie, insult, and run. You've clearly perfected that tactic.

PHX NATIVE 929 May 26, 2010 9:39 PM

So we're clear, it's fine for you to call others myopic and ignoramuses, but if the tables get turned even the slightest bit, your thin-skin can't handle it and out come the very grown-up "Bag of Douche" lines? OK, got it.

Nobody loves to dish it out but crawls under a rock when it's time to take it quite like a libbie. Nobody throws out the "ad hominem" accusation while being guilty of the same "offense" at the same time quite like a libbie.

I'll have rational debate with you all day long and take you to the cleaners. Unfortunately, you'll tuck and run when backed into a corner. But surely there will be a race card to throw out as a life preserver, right?

*sighs*

dtnphx May 26, 2010 9:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4854698)
So we're clear, it's fine for you to call others myopic and ignoramuses, but if the tables get turned even the slightest bit, your thin-skin can't handle it and out come the very grown-up "Bag of Douche" lines? OK, got it.

Nobody loves to dish it out but crawls under a rock when it's time to take it quite like a libbie.

*sighs*

Everytime you're on here 929 it's always some angry rant at the left. Your rationale is solely confined to your own brain. And you wonder why you get feedback when you expouse this crap. You're part of this Hate America crowd that hides behind the flag. Go sit down, tune in to Fox and masturbate your brains out.

PHX NATIVE 929 May 26, 2010 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtnphx (Post 4854708)
Everytime you're on here 929 it's always some angry rant at the left. Your rationale is solely confined to your own brain. And you wonder why you get feedback when you expouse this crap. You're part of this Hate America crowd that hides behind the flag. Go sit down, tune in to Fox and masturbate your brains out.


The Hate America crowd? Do tell.

Masturbate to Fox? Nope.

Enjoy pointing out repeated Left-Wing Idiocy (participated in by about 85% of the members of this site)? Sure.

I visit this site because Skyscrapers fascinate me and occasionally there's a nugget of interesting info found between the mindless posts of libbie dreamers.

But at least you hit me with that masturbation zinger....

PHX31 May 26, 2010 9:59 PM

It's nearly impossible to "prove" anything in these left vs right debates. It's like trying to tell someone what to think or to change an opinion. Never gonna happen. The only thing don and 929 can do is whip out their dicks to see who's is bigger... or arm wrestle.

Ad hominem attacks are the only logical road to go down in these "debates". Can't change an opinion and either side is going to backup their own statements with facts that are cherry picked, so you might as well talk shit about the other person.

In this case, Don gets crushed again! He really does have the thinnest skin on the forum.

mwadswor May 26, 2010 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 4854732)
In this case, Don gets crushed again! He really does have the thinnest skin on the forum.

No, they both lose. Don has thin skin and 929 gets to act like a complete ass. I'd like to see 929 have one conversation on this forum without using the word "libbies." It seems to be the go-to response for many on the right when they come across an argument that they're not going to win: just start shouting "socialism" or "libbies" until the reasonable people in the room go away :poke:

Let me rephrase, we all lose when 2 forumers take a thread off-topic because they're more interested in pissing on each other than having a grown up conversation.

HooverDam May 26, 2010 11:06 PM

Not to get off of this thrilling brawl (Don is right by the by), but here's something I've been thinking about...

In regards to planning it seems like every 10 years Phoenix as a city has these visioning sessions, in the late 80s (or was it early 90s?) there was the "Phoenix Futures Forum" or whatever. Nothing ever seems to come of these grand plans because the public enthusiasm eventually runs out of steam, things get too complex, people realize their own lives are more important or whatever. While its nice that the planning of the city is a somewhat Democratic process, I do wonder if perhaps that process by its very nature leads to diluted, uninteresting plans.

What I'm getting at here is, cities that are regarding for being masterfully planned, whether it be DC with L'Enfants plan, Chicago with Burnhams plan, or Haussmanns plans for Paris all seem to be the visions of a single genius or a few folks who really knew what they were doing.

For a few decades Phoenix had Frank Lloyd Wright one of histories premiere architects living just next door and he had a penchant for dreaming up city plans (though I find his Broadacre City idea to be lame) it would've been very interesting to see what a Wright plan for the Valley would've looked like. Even now I wonder if instead of visioning conferences we ought to find one person or firm/small group that can come up with a plan for the cities next 100 years thats more comprehensive and of course inspiring. Maybe that person would be Will Bruder or maybe someone else, but I'd love for some architect/planner or firm to come up with such a plan at least to stir conversation.

mwadswor May 26, 2010 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4854859)
What I'm getting at here is, cities that are regarding for being masterfully planned, whether it be DC with L'Enfants plan, Chicago with Burnhams plan, or Haussmanns plans for Paris all seem to be the visions of a single genius or a few folks who really knew what they were doing.

For a few decades Phoenix had Frank Lloyd Wright one of histories premiere architects living just next door and he had a penchant for dreaming up city plans (though I find his Broadacre City idea to be lame) it would've been very interesting to see what a Wright plan for the Valley would've looked like. Even now I wonder if instead of visioning conferences we ought to find one person or firm/small group that can come up with a plan for the cities next 100 years thats more comprehensive and of course inspiring. Maybe that person would be Will Bruder or maybe someone else, but I'd love for some architect/planner or firm to come up with such a plan at least to stir conversation.

I have no interest in paying a firm to come up with a plan that'll make a bit of a stir, sit on the books for a while, and ultimately go absolutely no where.

If, on the other hand, we can get some steam behind implementing and actually sticking to a master plan, I think you have exactly the right idea. Let one firm come up with the design, and don't get so bogged down with the democratic process on every single little design detail. Make it illegal for the city to approve variances for x years (or decades) within the master planned area, include realistic maximum and minimum building heights in the zoning, require developers to have all their funding lined up before they start demolition of existing structures or construction of new structures (no getting half way and then either massively downsizing the project or going bankrupt like cityscape or Centerpoint). Once that's done, hire several firms to come up with their own plans with no collaboration between them and hold a vote on which plan (none is not an option :) ) to move forward with, that way you retain some of the democratic process on what we actually do, but don't have to have so many voices in the minutiae of the design.

That's my solution at least :notacrook:

HooverDam May 26, 2010 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4854882)
I have no interest in paying a firm to come up with a plan that'll make a bit of a stir, sit on the books for a while, and ultimately go absolutely no where.

Oh yah I don't want to pay anyone to do it. :P In my silly fantasy world I wish someone like Bruder would come up with a plan on their own to try to start conversation. It would take a very civic minded person, probably in the twilight of their career who felt the need to leave a mark though to do something like that.

PHX31 May 27, 2010 4:47 AM

Please watch the video below and give me your opinions.

re: immigration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JDo36xPYgE

I agree with what he's saying 100%, especially in his words directed to Calderon. I'm not sure how someone can't agree, that's why I'm asking for your opinions.

PhxPavilion May 27, 2010 6:19 AM

^ Calderon is an asshole. This whole immigration issue is ridiculous, nothing but idiots on both sides knee jerking and spazzing out.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4854686)
Of course, it's easier to go the libbie route of lie, insult, and run. You've clearly perfected that tactic.

What is calling Michael Moore a mental midget if not insulting?

Hows that view from your horse of irony?

PHX NATIVE 929 May 27, 2010 6:44 AM

Wow. Excellent point... except I wasn't debating with Michael Moore, didn't lie about him, and didn't run from the comment. Other than that, your analysis is spot on....

Loads of intellectual giants on this board.

PHX NATIVE 929 May 27, 2010 6:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 4855370)
Please watch the video below and give me your opinions.

re: immigration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JDo36xPYgE

I agree with what he's saying 100%, especially in his words directed to Calderon. I'm not sure how someone can't agree, that's why I'm asking for your opinions.


McClintock nails it. Five minutes of common sense and decency. Beautiful.

Leo the Dog May 27, 2010 3:10 PM

Aren't politics great?!

I never really liked FLW. When I was in school, I had a professor absolutely clown on FLW. He found it odd that he is so embraced here, when many of his structures elsewhere were "falling apart". He basically went on to say while they may look different they're not structurally sound.

I always thought that Phoenix needs(ed) a Frederick Law Olmstead. He's best known for Central Park, but a lesser known and probably more ambitious project undertaken was Boston's Emerald Necklace. I think Phoenix has so much potential with our hundreds of miles of canals and Salt River lands. We just need a master planner to transform those banks into usable pedestrian zones, not just a path with scrub brush.

Don B. May 27, 2010 9:39 PM

^ All of that is great, but if there's no money to make it happen, it won't.

I was confident that Phoenix was going to emerge from this horrific recession by this year. Now, I'm not so sure, especially when stuff like this is continuing to happen:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-canceled.html

A minority suppliers group that would have brought 7,000 convention attendees to Phoenix this fall has moved the meeting to Florida because of Arizona's new immigration law.

The National Minority Suppliers Development Council, Inc. released a statement, which Phoenix officials received today.

The council is the latest of several out-of-town groups that have canceled Valley meetings because of the law. Metropolitan Phoenix risks losing as much as $90 million in hotel and convention business over the next five years because of the controversy, according to one Phoenix estimate.

--don

dtnphx May 27, 2010 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4855481)
Wow. Excellent point... except I wasn't debating with Michael Moore, didn't lie about him, and didn't run from the comment. Other than that, your analysis is spot on....

Loads of intellectual giants on this board.

For someone who professes their love for skyscrapers as you did it's odd that going back just two pages of your entries shows 30 out of 40 with your paranoid, snarky political diatribes. The remaining 10 were mostly on the Suns tread. Oh, and "libbies?" :koko:

SunDevil May 28, 2010 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don B. (Post 4856368)
^ All of that is great, but if there's no money to make it happen, it won't.

I was confident that Phoenix was going to emerge from this horrific recession by this year. Now, I'm not so sure, especially when stuff like this is continuing to happen:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-canceled.html

A minority suppliers group that would have brought 7,000 convention attendees to Phoenix this fall has moved the meeting to Florida because of Arizona's new immigration law.

The National Minority Suppliers Development Council, Inc. released a statement, which Phoenix officials received today.

The council is the latest of several out-of-town groups that have canceled Valley meetings because of the law. Metropolitan Phoenix risks losing as much as $90 million in hotel and convention business over the next five years because of the controversy, according to one Phoenix estimate.

--don

While $90 million is a whole hell of a lot of money for you and me, it's not that much for the city of Phoenix, especially when spread over 5 years. Also, one can't forget that we Americans have notoriously short attention spans and a year or two after all the SB1070 stuff is settled (whenever that will be) people that are boycotting now will have forgotten about it.

PHX NATIVE 929 May 28, 2010 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtnphx (Post 4856477)
For someone who professes their love for skyscrapers as you did it's odd that going back just two pages of your entries shows 30 out of 40 with your paranoid, snarky political diatribes. The remaining 10 were mostly on the Suns tread. Oh, and "libbies?" :koko:

Did you seriously just go back and read my last 40 postings? Obsess much? Yeah, that's not weird at all....

Since you're so interested in the breakdown of my postings, however, allow me to explain something to you. In case you haven't noticed, SB 1070 has been kinda/sorta a big deal around the Valley lately and I engaged in a fairly respectful debate on the issue on one of these threads a week or so ago. In the most recent case, I was defending right-wingers against Don's latest rant. I'm also a long-time Suns season ticket holder so that strikes my interest as well. Maybe you weren't aware there's a pretty big Suns/Lakers series in progress.

For your satisfaction, perhaps I should chime in on the height of tower cranes more often? And if I replace "libbie" with "liberal", will that suffice for you, little fella?

Now beat it. Stalkers creep me out.

Leo the Dog May 28, 2010 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don B. (Post 4856368)
I was confident that Phoenix was going to emerge from this horrific recession by this year.

--don

Don the optimist?

I'd say we have a couple more years to go before a true recovery sets in because nothing that caused the recession was ever addressed. I'd say that we are almost in worse shape now than we were in 2005.

One day the US is going to have to address its debt problem just as Europe is today. The European debt is threatening to collapse their currency...that can't be good for the global economy.

Leo the Dog May 28, 2010 3:30 PM

CA, leaning to the right?
 
Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/37376170/

Quote:

Are Blowouts Coming in California? With Regime Change in November?
Published: Thursday, 27 May 2010 | 9:56 AM ET
By: Larry Kudlow
CNBC Anchor

Recent GOP primary polls in the Golden State point to huge victories for Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina.

Whitman is leading by 25 to 27 points in two polls (SurveyUSA and PPP) over Steve Poizner in the governor’s race, while Fiorina has opened up a 20 to 23 point lead against Tom Campbell in the Senate contest, with Chuck Devore trailing well behind.

Primary day is June 8.

Whitman has stayed on message, with job creation (12.6% unemployment) and solving the near-bankrupt state’s $20 billion budget deficit her top priorities. She intends to abolish the state’s capital-gains tax while knocking out $15 billion in welfare and other transfer payments that have spiraled out of control. Government union salaries will be frozen, while pension eligibility for retirement will be raised and vesting periods will be increased. She also will aggressively use the state’s powerful line-item veto. And she has taken the no-new-tax pledge as an aggressive promise.

Steve Poizner made a run at Whitman with his support of the Arizona immigration law. After a brief flurry that temporarily narrowed the polls, surveys out yesterday suggest that Republican primary voters prefer Whitman’s fiscal plan and business expertise to shake up Sacramento’s cesspool politics. Noteworthy are the attack ads on Whitman by SEIU, which sees an end to its outrageous and extravagant financial and political power if Whitman wins.

Carly Fiorina has run on a tea-party platform of rolling back federal spending and reducing tax rates. Limited government is her response to Barack Obama’s Washington and Barbara Boxer’s extreme-left-wing San Francisco values. Fiorina never flinched in opposing Obamacare. She also is pro-life.

Come November, Fiorina will join the new tea-party nucleus in the GOP Senate caucus, while Whitman will change Sacramento after she defeats Jerry Brown, the quintessential yesterday’s man.
As a fan of American politics, this fall, things could get interesting.

phxbyrd May 28, 2010 4:11 PM

The minority suppliers convention is proof of nothing. They are a usual suspects group and it's a political decision. When a-political groups that aren't hispanic, or minority or immigration or liberal or labor oriented start canceling then it will prove something but that hasn't happened yet. I also wonder about that 7,000 attendees figure. It's not typical for a show that big to be moved on short notice and into the high season in Florida. Where would they have an opening in the fall? Would a major conservative show be able to up and move to Phoenix in Feburary if the decision we made in October, most likely not.

dtnphx May 28, 2010 5:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4856631)
For your satisfaction, perhaps I should chime in on the height of tower cranes more often?

Yes, maybe you should, Nancy.

Leo the Dog May 28, 2010 5:21 PM

Finally some positive news
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don B. (Post 4856368)
^ All of that is great, but if there's no money to make it happen, it won't.

I was confident that Phoenix was going to emerge from this horrific recession by this year. Now, I'm not so sure, especially when stuff like this is continuing to happen:

--don

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ions-rise.html

Quote:

Ariz. records gain in state tax collections

May. 27, 2010 05:10 PM
Associated Press

Arizona's budget has been in the crisis mode for about two years now but legislative budget analysts are reporting some good news.

The Joint Legislative Budget Committee staff reported Thursday that April saw the first year-over-year gain in monthly tax collections since September 2007, with a 4.1 percent increase above the April 2009 level.

The analysts call that "evidence of the stabilization of the economy" along with April's increase in sales tax collections over a year earlier. That ends 26 months of year-over-year reduced sales tax collections.

The analysts also say the projection for a $150 million budget shortfall at the June 30 end of the current fiscal year could be smaller than anticipated and even possibly eliminated.
Good news, maybe AZ is starting to turn the corner with higher tax revenue coming in for the first time in years.

Don B. May 28, 2010 7:09 PM

^ Or it could be a "dead-cat bounce." The answer is no one really knows for sure.

If this trend continues for several more months, then perhaps we have, in fact, turned the corner. But I'm not ready to bust out the party balloons just yet.

I can report that our revenue in the lawyer referral service is up significantly the last two months (our nadir was in February), so I take that as a positive sign. May is looking really good as well.

--don

PhxPavilion May 29, 2010 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4855481)
Wow. Excellent point... except I wasn't debating with Michael Moore, didn't lie about him, and didn't run from the comment. Other than that, your analysis is spot on....

Loads of intellectual giants on this board.

You weren't debating with Moore but you were insulting him, you are lying (uninformed opinions are not fact) and you are being a great big douche. Since you love to throw around libbies as some sort of attempt at an insult while insinuating we're all dumb that must make you a repuke right? I'll add a charlatan to that as well.

PHX NATIVE 929 May 29, 2010 4:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxPavilion (Post 4858374)
You weren't debating with Moore but you were insulting him, you are lying (uninformed opinions are not fact) and you are being a great big douche. Since you love to throw around libbies as some sort of attempt at an insult while insinuating we're all dumb that must make you a repuke right? I'll add a charlatan to that as well.

Opinions are lies? Keep reaching, libbie.

I don't need to insinuate that you're dumb. Your posts speak for themselves.

Buckeye Native 001 May 29, 2010 6:19 PM

You all do realize that debating PHX NATIVE 929 is the only reason he keeps coming back here, right?

Here's a wonderful idea: Fucking ignore him, and maybe he'll go away.

Vicelord John May 29, 2010 6:50 PM

Why do people who argue politics always call out each others beliefs?

LIBBY! RIGHT WINGER!!

Saying those things doesn't really prove a point. It's like calling a black person a nigger, it just states the obvious and provides nothing constructive to the argument nor does it state what your point actually is.

The next time someone argues politics with me and calls me a libby as an attempt to prove their point, I'm not going to respond. lol

PhxPavilion May 29, 2010 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 (Post 4858530)
Opinions are lies? Keep reaching, libbie.

I don't need to insinuate that you're dumb. Your posts speak for themselves.

LOL, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Leo the Dog Jun 7, 2010 12:09 PM

Anyone else see this?
 
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=C2

Quote:

Not so fast, Pisa! UAE lays claim to world's furthest leaning tower
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 6, 2010 8:45 a.m. EDT

The Capital Gate building has been deliberately engineered to slant.
Capital Gate building leans nearly five times farther than Leaning Tower of Pisa
It is deliberately engineered to lean
UAE also home to world's tallest skyscraper Chalk another record to the United Arab Emirates' collection.
The Capital Gate building in the desert kingdom's capital, Abu Dhabi, has been certified by Guinness World Records as the "World's Furthest Leaning Man-made Tower."
How far does it lean? Nearly five times farther than the Leaning Tower of Pisa in Italy.
The 35-story Abu Dhabi building has an 18-degree slope, compared with four degrees for the freestanding bell tower.
But unlike the tower in Pisa, the Capital Gate building has been deliberately engineered to slant.
The floor plates are stacked vertically up to the 12th floor, after which they are staggered over each other by between 300 mm to 1,400 mm -- giving the tower its lean, the owners said.
More CNN news in Arabic
"It is a signature building which speaks to the foresight of the emirate," said Sheikh Sultan Bin Tahnoon al Nahyan, the chairman of the building's owner, Abu Dhabi National Exhibitions Company.
The mixed-use building will be ready for occupancy at the end of the year. It is featured in a new National Geographic documentary, called "Megastructures."
In January, Dubai -- one of seven emirates that make up the UAE -- unveiled the world's tallest skyscraper: the $1.5 billion, 160-story Burj Khalifa, which has a height of more than 800 meters (2,625 ft).
I think this is pretty cool and its only 35 floors, perfect for Phoenix.

Leo the Dog Jul 1, 2010 11:07 AM

Monsoon 2010 made an appearance:

First sprinkles in the city of Phx last night. Dewpoints in the mid-50's. If we go by the true/old indicator of the start of Monsoon season of three consecutive days of a dewpoint of 55 degrees or higher, then we are almost there. :cheers:

HooverDam Jul 8, 2010 8:57 AM

So going on this long comedy road trip Im on has been a lot of fun (and tiring) but depressing in the way that seeing other cities downtowns really makes me realize how far behind ours is. Phoenix must have the least amount of park, mall and general civic open space of any large city. Its absolutely pathetic, I love the new Civic Space Park, but its on the far North end of the CBD and its just not enough.

Im even more convinced now than I was before that the lot bounded by Wash/Jeff and 1st St/2nd St should become a city square/park in lieu of a (likely never to happen) CityScape phase. With clubs on one side, office and restaurants on the East and West and an arena to the South it could make for a great active Central Square. If the Hanji hotel ever happens to the Southwest and the lot directly west of USAC fill up, it would become really special.

Of the large cities we've stopped in so far Des Moines, Omaha and Denver all have probably better downtowns than Phx. So far only ABQ falls short of Phoenix. Up next are Chicago and St Louis which I've been too and I know Phoenix will fall far short by those measuring sticks.

/end moping

Leo the Dog Jul 8, 2010 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4904488)
So going on this long comedy road trip Im on has been a lot of fun (and tiring) but depressing in the way that seeing other cities downtowns really makes me realize how far behind ours is. Phoenix must have the least amount of park, mall and general civic open space of any large city. Its absolutely pathetic, I love the new Civic Space Park, but its on the far North end of the CBD and its just not enough.

One only needs to travel to Scottsdale, Tempe, Flagstaff, Prescott to become aware of how far behind DT Phx is to other cities.

The only other large city I can think of that Phx may compete with is Detroit, but even Detroit has a nice stock of early 20th century buildings and a nice waterfront.

bwonger06 Jul 8, 2010 6:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4904488)

Im even more convinced now than I was before that the lot bounded by Wash/Jeff and 1st St/2nd St should become a city square/park in lieu of a (likely never to happen) CityScape phase. With clubs on one side, office and restaurants on the East and West and an arena to the South it could make for a great active Central Square. If the Hanji hotel ever happens to the Southwest and the lot directly west of USAC fill up, it would become really special.

Of the large cities we've stopped in so far Des Moines, Omaha and Denver all have probably better downtowns than Phx. So far only ABQ falls short of Phoenix. Up next are Chicago and St Louis which I've been too and I know Phoenix will fall far short by those measuring sticks.

/end moping

After Cityscape, I really do not believe the true downtown will ever have a chance at becoming a urban walkable core (24/7) which I do not mind. I believe the area will get much better and already has during the day but I cannot see the area having any kind of nightlife. This, however, mimics the personality of other big cities. Go to the financial district in New York & Denver, Capitol Hill in DC. Heck even go to Shanghai, the areas by the big tall skyscrapers become desolate at night.

However, there is obviously hope. The area between Fillmore up to just north of Roosevelt has a real chance of becoming Uptown. From 1st Ave to 7th street, you have plenty of great Clubs (the trio at Amersterdam), Bars (the Roosevelt hipster bars), Galleries, Restaurants, Phoenix public market, several great housing developments, etc. There are already great projects inside this "Updtown" zone, but infill will need to happen before the area can start booming due to the abundance of empty lots.

I know this would hurt the public market, but I for one would like to see the big parcel of Pierce and Central get developed into a 5-6 story mixed used building with underground parking. Perfect location... close to the clubs, asu, short walk to light rail. Class A apartments are doing very well in the area- take a look at Alta Phoenix, 85%+ leased in about a years time which is great in the Apartment industry. Ground floor retail (some kind of restaurant open very late would do very well considering the drunk food potential).

Someone mentioned modern urban row-houses. I just don't think the demand is there yet. People are still very scared to buy housing downtown. (Although successful rowhouse properties have worked at Artisan Village). The city, however, has to get its act together if we really want this to happen. Destroy many of the stupid setback rules, do not promise free parking, etc.

NorthScottsdale Jul 8, 2010 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwonger06 (Post 4904983)
After Cityscape, I really do not believe the true downtown will ever have a chance at becoming a urban walkable core (24/7) which I do not mind. I believe the area will get much better and already has during the day but I cannot see the area having any kind of nightlife. This, however, mimics the personality of other big cities. Go to the financial district in New York & Denver, Capitol Hill in DC. Heck even go to Shanghai, the areas by the big tall skyscrapers become desolate at night.

However, there is obviously hope. The area between Fillmore up to just north of Roosevelt has a real chance of becoming Uptown. From 1st Ave to 7th street, you have plenty of great Clubs (the trio at Amersterdam), Bars (the Roosevelt hipster bars), Galleries, Restaurants, Phoenix public market, several great housing developments, etc. There are already great projects inside this "Updtown" zone, but infill will need to happen before the area can start booming due to the abundance of empty lots.

I know this would hurt the public market, but I for one would like to see the big parcel of Pierce and Central get developed into a 5-6 story mixed used building with underground parking. Perfect location... close to the clubs, asu, short walk to light rail. Class A apartments are doing very well in the area- take a look at Alta Phoenix, 85%+ leased in about a years time which is great in the Apartment industry. Ground floor retail (some kind of restaurant open very late would do very well considering the drunk food potential).

I agree, but why not leave the first couple floors on that 5-6 story structure open-air, which could provide space for the public market?

I think our best bets for nightlife vibrancy will be the Roosavelt row district, the area around cityscape/washington/2nd st, maybe Jackson st if that ever becomes a reality... I also really hope they do something with 7th ave between Indian School and Camelback like narrow the streets and landscape or something.. it is such a cool stretch of road!

bwonger06 Jul 9, 2010 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale (Post 4905471)
I agree, but why not leave the first couple floors on that 5-6 story structure open-air, which could provide space for the public market?

I think our best bets for nightlife vibrancy will be the Roosavelt row district, the area around cityscape/washington/2nd st, maybe Jackson st if that ever becomes a reality... I also really hope they do something with 7th ave between Indian School and Camelback like narrow the streets and landscape or something.. it is such a cool stretch of road!

I'd really want the public market to relocate to the streets much like the Santa Monica farmers market. Close down Central (or 1st street to avoid LR) from Roosevelt/Pierce to Van Buren and piggy back off of the Civic space. Once again, the City has to support this idea.

phxbyrd Jul 9, 2010 3:58 AM

what about Taylor Street?

HooverDam Jul 17, 2010 7:47 AM

So a while back (in a different thread I think) Combusean was talking about our draconian last call and alcohol laws, which I agree with. His point was people generally chug right before 2am, then are let loose to drive the streets. In ideal liberty loving world, there wouldn't be a last call, unfortunately the pragmatist in me can't really see people ever going for this.

So it got me thinking, does anyone know of any places that do a staggered last call? Maybe all hard liquor sales stop at 2am but beer sales could continue to 3 or 4 or something...? I dunno, I just thought it might be an interesting idea to help not only the bar/nightlife economy in AZ but also to give the scene something unique and make it more vibrant or whatever.:cheers:

Vicelord John Jul 17, 2010 2:30 PM

NY city cars only have to close 1 hour a day.

PHX31 Jul 17, 2010 2:46 PM

Who wants to drive around in NY in the winter with their doors open?

phxbyrd Jul 18, 2010 3:32 PM

in London it used to be last call at midnight but clubs (that charged a cover) could serve beer until dawn. Now they have no last call in the UK but I haven't been there since the law changed.

HooverDam Jul 26, 2010 2:29 AM

*****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD*****


So I'm back from traveling the country (drove 5,496 miles) telling jokes and seeing lots of other cities in some ways saddened me, but being an optimist, gave me new ideas for Phoenix. Or really reinforced current ideas and thoughts I already had.

Primarily Im talking about Downtowns lack of park space, and Phoenix's generally underwhelming urban parks. Our Mountain Preserves are amazing and unparalleled in the country, but the design of our traditional parks is just awful for the most part.

For the most part I love the Civic Space and think its a big success. Like I thought when I looked at the plans for it the large hardscape on the NE corner rarely gets used and is a design flaw, but besides that its terrific. I would've much rather have seen a large splash pad there with unique features. The current splash pad that exists (and is only open for 4 hours on a Sunday) is a joke and embarrassing.

Here are a few of the great parks I saw that Phoenix needs to look at for inspiration:

Millenium Park in Chicago:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/200...3051345132.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/150...9718011132.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/854...9717999132.jpg

Obviously Millennium Park is very large, in the Downtown Core itself there would be no room to do something similar.

Millennium Parks water feature is awesome and the NE Corner of the Civic Space should've been something similar. It would've helped attract more of a diverse kids besides college kids and bring children and families to the park.

Millennium Park is about 25 acres, almost the exact same acreage as Hance Park. As I've said (probably ad nauseum) Hance park needs to be redesigned along the lines of Millennium Park. It would be hugely expensive and not possible right now, but there's no time like the present to start planning. Millennium Park has a lot of corporate sponsorship (and believe me it doesn't diminish the parks greatness one bit) and that could help make an enhanced Hance possible.

One major issue Hance faces is the surrounding area. Millennium Park is surrounded by huge structures, adjacent to an Art Museum and has active uses on all sides. Hance does have some positive things going for it, being adjacent to the Library, the Irish Cultural Center, the Puppet Theater, the Phx Center for the Arts & the Japanese Friendship Garden. However some of these uses (Japanese Garden, Irish Center) are fenced off and disconnected from the park, making them seem like separate unrelated attractions, that has to change.

With Channel 12 moving to the Az Republic building, hopefully their awful, anti urban building can be demolished and replaced with something better. I'd love to see a Natural History Museum there for instance as the only one in the Valley is the rather underwhelming one in Mesa. Something like that would attract thousands of school kids every year and fill the park with life.

Discovery Green in Houston:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4...2872419132.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/927...6205752132.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7...6205751132.jpg
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9...9539084132.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6...6205739132.jpg
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3...6205738132.jpg

Discovery Green is about 12 acres or so, so again its not directly analogous to anything we could do here. But many of its ideas and features could be used in a redone Hance Park.

They have 2 restaurants built into the park, one with a roof top deck. They have a pond and a place where you can rent remote control boats. They have a large splash pad as well as a unique "Mist Tree" sculpture. Its built over a parking garage and adjacent to their Convention Center on one side and the Downtown Core on the other. Just a bit to the North is Minute Maid Park (Astros) and a bit south is the Toyota Center (Rockets). It has band shells and a oak lined promenade thats simply gorgeous.

CityGarden in St Louis:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5...2873138132.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9...6206471132.jpg
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/6...9539804132.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6...2873137132.jpg

CityGarden is a redone 2 block section of the much longer "Gateway Mall" of parks connecting historic Union Station to the Courthouse (where the Dred Scott decision took place). Its only about 3 acres and thus is probably more the type of thing Phoenix should look at copying. Due to our desert climate and the way the city is laid out a huge grassy place like Central Park in NYC is never going to happen, but lots of smaller places like the Civic Space and CityGarden in a 'connected oasis' (lets hope that becomes a reality) could and should happen.

CityGarden like the other 2 parks had a large, unique splash pad. It also had a curving wall built of local limestone that had a water wall that could be played in and manipulated. There was about 20 large sculptures through out the park and native plants (selected in association with the Mo Botanical Garden) through out the park.

Unsurprisingly all of these 3 parks were mentioned in this article on the best new urban parks in the US.

I know Ive mentioned this parcel before and some (GymRat, maybe others) disagreed but being as its almost the exact acreage of CityGarden I really think it could be a successful urban park:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4914/park.png

Its really the only place our City has the chance to build a park in the center of towers and active uses on most sides. It could be the Town Square that PSP tried but failed to be. It already has underground parking which is nice, and the entrance to the garage could be cleverly implemented into the park somehow. Now that its very clear that CityScapes central plaza is nothing like a park or great public space, we ought to work to have that replaced.

With the restaurants all along the North and East sides, CityScape to the West and the Arena to the South its really a perfect spot for an urban park. As much as we'd all love to see condos, and thus people downtown, those condo towers just aren't going to happen anytime soon. The City should look into a land swap with RED (like they did with Colliers to build Steele Indian School Park) and maybe they can build condos or something somewhere else down the line when there's actually a market for that.

There's enough space on that parcel for a bandshell (Id vote to put it on the NE corner) where lunchtime concerts could happen (like once happened at PSP) as well as maybe evening/night time concerts on the weekends to create a synergy with the clubs along Washington.

Additionally a large, unique, signature water feature(s) should be built, especially in our climate. Making 1st street close- able for large events (like when the Suns finally win the title) would make sense too and expand the park slightly.

The key element all the great parks I saw had was: 1. diversity of uses, 2. active edges. Civic Space succeeds to the degree it does because it has a diversity of uses (hills, flat grass, band shell, art gallery, coffee shop, large public art) and due to the active edge on the East side and the transit center to the South. Hance has a lot of challenges with activating its edges but certainly its diversity of uses can be expanded. The Downtown block I highlighted already would have very active edges and if planned properly could be incredible.

Anyway, Ive rambled on too long but my main point is this: Civic Space is great but could be a bit better. Hance Park is a toilet and needs to be totally redone. We need a small urban park/green town square in our city Center and the block bounded by Wash/Jeff and 1st/2nd is the perfect place for it.

NIXPHX77 Aug 1, 2010 11:18 PM

Excellent post Hoover! i fully agree about a replcmnt for Patriots Sq Park, since Cityscape is not it, & what it should contain. A major water feature(s) is a must in this climate. Your block may be the best; any other suggestions folks? i also think perhaps it shouldn't be just one park. perhaps another could go in on the southwest side of downtown to balance things out.
From what i recall hearing, PSP was to be just 1 of 3 park squares planned downtown originally. i'd like to find/see those orig plans.

NIXPHX77 Aug 1, 2010 11:20 PM

ps - your article link takes me to a "Time Bandits" videoclip on YouTube!

HooverDam Aug 2, 2010 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIXPHX77 (Post 4932471)
ps - your article link takes me to a "Time Bandits" videoclip on YouTube!

Haha whoops! Thats what you get when your tabbed browsing and not paying much attention I suppose. It should be fixed now :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIXPHX77 (Post 4932467)
i also think perhaps it shouldn't be just one park. perhaps another could go in on the southwest side of downtown to balance things out.

Oh I agree entirely. One park on a city block does not make for a great urban core park system. What we need is the oft talked about "Connected Oasis" connecting the Capital Mall, redone and revamped University, Hance and Verde Parks, a new park like I outlined above, and Civic Space.

Additionally the Urban Form project outlined the need for large park space with sporting fields and such for future downtown residents and visitors and the only realistic place to put something of that size is South of the tracks in the "Park Neighborhoods". Something more or less the size of Steele Indian School Park is needed that would have at least a football field, baseball field, volleyball, basketball, etc. Maybe on the UP tracks site just South East of Downtown if they ever move that facility.

HooverDam Aug 2, 2010 12:12 AM

E: whoops double post

Phxguy Aug 2, 2010 3:11 PM

How about placing the park spread out over several blocks like say at Lincolin and 3rd st. There's no shortage of surface lots and parking lots there. The parks could extend to Buchanan st. and use that dirt strip at the southwest corner of Grant and 4th for tennis and basketball courts.

Leo the Dog Aug 2, 2010 3:47 PM

While not in the heart of the CBD, I think Phoenix should focus on what it has: Deck Park.

Everyone agrees that Hance Park is in need of a complete over-haul. Why not invest millions into the park to encourage new urban development around the park (ie, Roosevelt Row). It could, in theory, fill the gap and connect DT to Midtown.

Vicelord John Aug 2, 2010 4:45 PM

Hoover, based on your pictures, St. Louis has the most minorities. Would you say this is correct?

HooverDam Aug 2, 2010 7:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4932961)
While not in the heart of the CBD, I think Phoenix should focus on what it has: Deck Park.

Everyone agrees that Hance Park is in need of a complete over-haul. Why not invest millions into the park to encourage new urban development around the park (ie, Roosevelt Row). It could, in theory, fill the gap and connect DT to Midtown.

We should do both. I dont view it as an either/or situation. Deck Park is a horrible mess and Im all for totally redoing it. However the CBD still doesn't have a main central park/square and it certainly needs one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 4933019)
Hoover, based on your pictures, St. Louis has the most minorities. Would you say this is correct?

On that day in those particular areas yes. But I would imagine Chicago has more both numbers wise being a bigger city and more of a variety of minorities. StL may have the highest percentage among those cities of specifically black folks, but Id bet Chicago has a lot more Laotians, Croatians, and other small groups like that.


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