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Leo the Dog May 2, 2010 1:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 4821260)
It shouldn't surprise me one bit that 70% of Arizonans are in favor of the new law. McCain won the state by the same margin. People here elect an endlessly worse series of buffoons to the Statehouse every time.

So spare me those stupid statistics of popular opinion. I know what it counts for here and what it's ultimately worth.

"What's right is not always popular, what's popular is not always right."

Polls are polls. I didn't make it up. I'm just stating what has been published. One should not dismiss what the populace thinks just because they may disagree with the results.

Tfom May 2, 2010 10:32 PM

The whole idea that we don't want to bring in unskilled labor is ridiculous and shows how much people misunderstand economics. This country was largely built on the backs of immigrants, and this city has been as well. I'm sorry to call b.s. on people who don't think cheap labor is a good thing, but it is. What people are really angry about is the welfare system, they hate the idea of someone being paid to sit at home. The sad thing is, its poor Americans who sit at home and collect welfare, much more so than immigrants. The last paper I saw that studied the subject found that males over 18 years old who were citizens were employed about 83% of the time (this was a 2004 paper so that numbers would be different). I believe the rate of employment for immigrants who are here legally was 89% and for those here illegally it was 91%. Also, when immigrants have access to services, they access them at a lower rate than Americans do. I think they had those jobs because they worked, and unfortunately too many Americans don't
Crime rate is another false assumption. For adults without a high school education, Americans were committing crimes at a rate almost five times the rate of illegal immigrants. I have never found a single scientifically conducted study that concluded that illegal immigrants committed crimes at a higher rate than Americans in the same demographic. I can give you the link to anyone who wishes to read them.
I find America's current immigration laws insulting to our heritage and a sad sign of American greed. They are designed to keep out the poor who wish to work their way up in the world. My great-grandfather was an immigrant, he worked as a cook and was poor, but he was given a chance. His sons fought in WWII, and my father was given the opportunity to go to college and to be well off, and so was I.

Other immigrant groups were not always popular, but we gave them a chance. Those who were minorities suffered more than others from racism and xenophobia. Now we write laws to prevent people from having the same opportunities many of our ancestors had, the opportunities that gave us the successes many of us have today. As a culture we quietly accept the cheap labor they provide, then gullibly allow them to be scapegoated when it's no longer convenient for us. Too many Americans stand on their high horse saying "illegal is illegal." It's illegal because we have laws that make it illegal to access the opportunities that many of us now benefit from. For years we didn't care because we liked the poor, cheap labor, and now we have this selfish view that we can just change our minds.
Leaving the border wide open is not a valid solution for many reasons. But I don't accept that poor immigrants no longer have a place to be welcomed in this country. Anyone who hides behind the lies that are perpetuated about immigrants, or believes that the well off and educated should be welcomed and the poor denied, I think is selfish and a coward. If that's the America that the people of this country want then I want no part of it.

DowntownDweller May 3, 2010 2:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tfom (Post 4822456)
If that's the America that the people of this country want then I want no part of it.

Don't let the door hit your backside

HX_Guy May 3, 2010 2:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DowntownDweller (Post 4822769)
Don't let the door hit your backside

That's all you've got? His post was fantastic and hit the nail right on the head, especially on the matter of crime. Do you really think that people that are committing crimes (smugglers/kidnappers) give a crap about how tough the immigration laws are? The ones that it affects is the ones that mind their own business anyway because unlike a citizen, who risks getting thrown in jail for a couple nights for a petty offense, an illegal immigrant has much more to lose.

HooverDam May 3, 2010 3:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DowntownDweller (Post 4822769)
Don't let the door hit your backside

And this is what it all boils down to. The people who are pro immigrant and pro reform try to use well reasoned thoughts and speak like adults. The Xenophobic anti immigrant crowd results to single lines of insults that don't move things forward.

When you'd like to have a discussion at the adult table, let us know. Otherwise its best to zip it.

CraftTeutonic May 3, 2010 3:35 AM

as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466

HooverDam May 3, 2010 4:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftTeutonic (Post 4822889)
as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466

I didn't know the point of being a free country was to do everything possible to raise the per capita GDP. We'll always need unskilled laborers and their children and childrens children often go on to great careers in highly skilled fields, so this argument falls pretty flatly on its face under even the most rudimentary of examinations.

CraftTeutonic May 3, 2010 4:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4822933)
I didn't know the point of being a free country was to do everything possible to raise the per capita GDP.

i never said that the only point was to raise gdp per capita. thats all you. but certainly a policy of increasing it as well as the standard of living would be better than one that actively decreases it as well as creating ever greater income disparity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4822933)
We'll always need unskilled laborers and their children and childrens children often go on to great careers in highly skilled fields, so this argument falls pretty flatly on its face under even the most rudimentary of examinations.

we already have enough unskilled labor, the difference being with immigrants that they are willing to work for near slave wages. and why even wait for the next next generation to become skilled workers when we already have enough here? as for always needing unskilled labor, that is debatable. japan, for example, is developing increasingly intricate robots :cool:

Tfom May 3, 2010 5:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftTeutonic (Post 4822889)
as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466

I don't necessarily agree with the gdp per capita part, but the discussion of unemployment is a factor. McCain, before he had to slide way right to defend his seat, talked about having a high fence with a wide gate. I believe our immigration policy should allow for people of more economically diverse backgrounds the opportunity to come here, both for economic reasons and because I believe that represents who America is. I don't know that bureaucrats will ever be able to do this, but in times of economic crisis such as this, I think a responsible and fair response would be to decrease the immigration rate (across the board economically) and to allow for more people to come during times when more jobs are available.

In response to DowntownDweller, you miss the whole point of why I said that. I'm not saying flippantly saying I wish to abandon my country, nor am I literally saying so. Maybe I could have been more specific in my response, but my post was getting long enough as it was. I believe that what makes this country great are the ideas that America was founded upon. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal." Not just Americans, or wealthy people, or smart people, all people. This is an idea that we as a country have struggled with since our inception. At times we have failed but in the long run I believe we have done what is right. I hope that we continue to struggle with this idea. It has allowed America to do great things, to be a great country that people will risk their lives to come to. But if, as I said before, we now only wish to be a country who welcomes the privileged few, and shut out those we who already have so much decide we don't want, then I think one of the great ideas that America was founded upon is dead. That is what I want no part of.
I've worked with poor families and kids since I moved to this city, as a teacher and in ministry. I know a lot of them are undocumented even though they don't say it. I watch them work hard to get an education, I've seen kids as young as 13 who work to help support their family. I've seen them volunteer their time and resources to their community. There are parents who work like dogs and live in ghettos to give their kids a chance. It's not everyone I meet, but it's a lot of them. They are more American than a lot of "Americans" I know. A lot of people make these same people out to be criminals on par with rapists and murderers, even if they were carried across before they were old enough to remember, because they crossed the border. We can handle this problem fairly, and we can move forward with an immigration policy that protects and honors what America is about. I hope everyone can look at the big picture and not see this as a black and white issue, but recognize there are a lot of things that brought us to this point. There is room for blame on all sides. Some people can call me a bleeding heart, but I did my best to research the issue with an open mind and come to my own conclusion. What too often gets spewed from self-serving politicians is rhetoric at best and lies at worst. I'll concede there are negative impacts from people crossing the border illegally, and I think there's a responsible way for people to pay for those crimes. Respectfully, I hope anyone who has an opinion on this issue will take the time to investigate why they hold the views they hold and be willing to at least concede that each side has valid points.

Leo the Dog May 3, 2010 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftTeutonic (Post 4822889)
as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466

Alright here's my two cents and just bc I may not agree with everyone, don't bite my head off.

The issue isn't about immigration, (and it is definitely not about race, don't be played) it is about undocumented peoples migrating into the US at anytime and the problems, social issues that arise from it.

And yes I do believe that 99% of the migrants good hard working people willing to risk their lives to escape from terrible conditions back home or come here to a strange foreign land just to make a living. Immigration is great, after all, every human being has migrated here, (including the Indians/Native Americans).

It is the arrival of anybody from anywhere with no way to track it where the problem arises. If the new migrants have no documents, then they'll never be able to attain a good high paying job. They will continue to live in the shadows, afraid to contact the police, organized crime (protection fees, extortion, money laundering schemes), working low wage jobs, living in ghettos, paying off Coytote fees, possibly taking up second "jobs" that may or may not include illegal activities just to make ends meet.

Many Hispanic/Latinos actually support enforcement of immigration laws. How are they to move up and advance in society if many of their people cannot attain good jobs and nobody even knows who they are or who is here. For the betterment of their people, their cause, their political pull, it is in their interest for immigration reform and border security.

This is not a racial issue, despite the attempts of the opposition to turn at least half the population against the other half. The law wasn't created because the state legislature hates "brown" people (last time I checked, latino isn't a race). As for the racial profiling claims, if one has been stopped for a crime and they don't have ID, can't speak English, cannot produce SSN, then they should probably be detained until we do find out who they are (post 9/11 reality), this has nothing to do with race, but lets not be ignorant that AZ straddles an international border so many of the arrests will be people from S. of the border and not undocumented Australians.

If the Feds would enforce the laws already written, then none of this would have occurred. The good thing that'll come from AZ's new laws is that it'll force the hand of the Federal Gov't to actually tackle the immigration problem. As quoted from CNN, most of AZ's law is word for word from the Federal law.

combusean May 3, 2010 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftTeutonic (Post 4822962)
i never said that the only point was to raise gdp per capita. thats all you. but certainly a policy of increasing it as well as the standard of living would be better than one that actively decreases it as well as creating ever greater income disparity?


we already have enough unskilled labor, the difference being with immigrants that they are willing to work for near slave wages. and why even wait for the next next generation to become skilled workers when we already have enough here? as for always needing unskilled labor, that is debatable. japan, for example, is developing increasingly intricate robots :cool:

When I and everyone else here can afford a maid, and we have Dubai-like skyscrapers because it's that cheap to build them, then we can say we might have enough unskilled labor. Not saying we should have the human rights issue they do, but you can't say we have enough unskilled labor when we can't even begin to contemplate the society we'd have if we actually did.

glynnjamin May 3, 2010 7:43 PM

Is anybody interested in a copy of Paolo Soleri's City in the Image of Man. It's a GIANT book...like maybe 12" x 30" or so. The library is throwing it out. I'll hold on to it if someone wants it.

Don B. May 3, 2010 7:48 PM

^ Yes, that sounds really interesting. :)

I like big books and I cannot lie...no other brothers can deny...

:D

--don

glynnjamin May 3, 2010 7:50 PM

You want me to hold on to it for you Don? You can pick it up whenever you're around downtown in the evenings.

HooverDam May 3, 2010 7:51 PM

So Sheriff Joe has to announce today if he wants to run for Governor. If he decides to, by law he has to step down as Sheriff. I don't think he will decide to run but I sure am praying he does. It would mean we'd finally get rid of him as Sheriff, investigations could be launched to clean up MCSO, and even if he did get the GOP nomination, I think Terry Goddard would clean his clock in the general election, so ole Joe would be out of public office for good. Sadly his handlers probably realize this as well and will advise him not to run.

Don B. May 3, 2010 7:53 PM

^ Agreed on all counts.

Glynn, check your PM. :)

--don

Evil Empire May 3, 2010 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4823638)
So Sheriff Joe has to announce today if he wants to run for Governor. If he decides to, by law he has to step down as Sheriff. I don't think he will decide to run but I sure am praying he does. It would mean we'd finally get rid of him as Sheriff, investigations could be launched to clean up MCSO, and even if he did get the GOP nomination, I think Terry Goddard would clean his clock in the general election, so ole Joe would be out of public office for good. Sadly his handlers probably realize this as well and will advise him not to run.

Well, a massive chunk of Arizona's population is incredibly ignorant and uneducated. I wouldn't be so sure about him getting destroyed in the election...as disturbing as it may seem, you never know how many votes he'd get.

HooverDam May 3, 2010 8:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire (Post 4823648)
Well, a massive chunk of Arizona's population is incredibly ignorant and uneducated. I wouldn't be so sure about him getting destroyed in the election...as disturbing as it may seem, you never know how many votes he'd get.

I think even a good percentage of people who voted for Arpaio as Sheriff would have a hard time voting for a 77 year old, one issue candidate.

Don B. May 3, 2010 8:07 PM

^ True, and the far right is already claimed by Bud Mills. :)

--don

pbenjamin May 3, 2010 8:51 PM

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=7HMfBB-tmFa

His traditional will-he-run exercise ended the same way as the previous ones.


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