Hockey is a niche sport like tennis golf or nascar in the U.S. Hockey was actually a bigger deal in the U.S. in the 70's when Bobby Orr was king playing the Blackhawks Flyers and Rangers hockey was a bigger deal than basketball as the NBA finals were broadcast on tape delay. Had it stayed in northern U.S. markets and expanded into markets that made more sense be it Milwaukee or Seattle instead of the southern strategy folly I think the NHL would be more popular today with better rivalries and markets with more rabid fan bases than a Florida or Carolina that only moderately watches hockey if the team has a deep playoff run to the cup finals.
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I said pretty much this exact thing for formula one racing. Bernie ecclestone and the stakeholders that enabled him mortgaged the future of the sport by abandoning traditional racing hot spots for races in far flung locales that have no tradition whatsoever all because those countries bent over backwards to his ridiculous money demands.
Canadian GP was missed one year and French GP for nine years! Ya the place that invented the automobile and Grand Prix. Thank god that tool is gone but the damage is done. |
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The growing the game initiative may have been a flop relative to other leagues, but I fail to see how opting not to grow the game would have resulted in a better outcome? Quebec City is watching hockey regardless of whether the Nordiques exist or not. The same can't be said of fans elsewhere. |
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Large cities are able to pull in far more television viewers. The US has 3/4ths of the teams and an even higher ratio of new teams. It makes sense that they possess the majority of the weak teams. |
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The Predators are relatively new and they are profitable. |
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To support my point, the salary cap has reached the point that if the Winnipeg Jets spend at the cap they have to make a deep run in the playoffs to break even. They lost money last year for the first time since their move from Atlanta, and that pressure will only persist as the cap increases in the future. Quote:
I don't actually think the NHL's initiative was a failure relative to other leagues at all. Hockey is pretty strong in a few markets right now, in particular Nashville, Dallas, and Tampa, among others. Los Angeles churns out a surprising number of hockey players right now and Arizona is very much on the up. I don't get why people don't see the value in growing this sport for the betterment of its long term interests. Quote:
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With 13000 average attendance in Sunrise there is obviously some creative accounting at work. No one would call that a healthy franchise.
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The thing about a few of the southern teams that Canadians love to deride is that the "problem" franchises have never been good for any sustained amount of time. Carolina has had blips of success (I don't consider them an issue) but aside from a single run neither Florida or Arizona have had any lick of success in twenty years. Certainly that plays a role in penetrating local markets. Nashville's success has done wonders for that market, as did Pittsburgh's run of success for Western Pennsylvania as a non-southern example. |
People in Canada would bitch about and finger point the sucky Sunbelt teams a million times less if only Quebec City and maybe Hamilton had teams, and perhaps if we'd won a Stanley Cup more recently than 1993.
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You guys do realize that if the NHL stays in the US Northeast and Canada that it remains a very small sport akin to lacrosse or curling, right? Were people this salty in 1967 when LA and Oakland came online or were they actually excited that more people got to experience and enjoy the sport they love so much? |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_N...ion#Opposition Quote:
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I recall in the early 90s Canadians were not especially salty as there was not yet a perception the NHL was robbing Peter to pay Paul. Then the Jets and Nords left the country and the rest is history. Winnipeg got back in by being lucky and playing their cards perfectly. But the lingering impression is of a league that doesn't give a damn about its roots and history. |
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The curling comparison was mentioned... I mean, could you imagine if the curling powers that be just said 'screw you' to the likes of Sudbury, Edmonton and Red Deer and just started giving the big events to Tucson and Bakersfield instead? And then quadrupled the price of tickets of events in Prince Albert and London in the name of "growing the game"? It's absurd. |
As a result I long ago pledged to give the NHL as little as possible of my direct sports entertaiment dollars.
Over the past couple of decades I have violated this pledge on occasion but not that often really. |
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Now that we are up to 31 teams, I'm not sure I could even name all of the teams if I were put on the spot, and I really do wonder how somebody who lives in Florida or California relates to the game - I'm sure they do on some level, but I would hesitate a guess to say not nearly to the extent as somebody in the northern areas, who has spent their childhood playing pickup games on their local frozen pond or lake... Just my opinion, of course... |
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For their other games Carleton and UOttawa probably draw 800-1500 people. Even playoff games may not even break 2000 fans. It's not really equivalent to quasi-big-time NCAA sports which is where I'd place Syracuse in football and basketball. They sometimes play teams like Clemson, West Virginia, Penn State, etc. in football and made the March Madness Final Four in basketball 2-3 years ago. If you're there when there is a game happening there is a very tangible buzz in the city (hotels, restaurants, etc.). And this is a reasonably large metro (600,000?) and not a college-only small town. |
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I've known people who have. Both basketball and football. Actually, I've known two people - unrelated and from two different periods of my life - from Ottawa who had SU football season tickets. One was about 20-25 years ago and one was 5-10 years ago. Neither had any family link to a player on the team. They just liked football a heck of a lot. IIRC these people were Rough Riders or Renegades or Redblacks season ticket holders as well. If you are into that thing it's not that big a commitment in terms of time and travel since SU football only plays 5-6 home games a season. |
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The crux of my argument is that an NHL with more Canadian teams is a weaker, poorer NHL, and it would be more likely that more Canadian players would have to look elsewhere to make a living playing hockey. Fin. Quote:
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New 3 on 3 summer hockey league?
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They average around 20,000 for basketball. |
I see the benefits of both models. Expanding into the unconventional markets or expanding into traditional hockey markets. From my perspective I could have done without the Sunbelt teams. There's just this element of sentiment I like in my sports. I don't lose sleep over these things but I know I'd enjoy the sport more if it were not in far flung exotic locations. But I know the reasons why they do it.
The Spanish Cup (Copa del Rey) was just held in its new format. Instead of league champ vs cup champ to kickoff the season, they just took the top 4 finishers from last year and had them do a mini tournament in Saudi Arabia. Only 300 Barca fans bought their team's allotment to travel and go watch. If I were to watch, I don't think I'd like the experience live or on TV. Sometimes you can just tell the game is not being held in a soccer hotbed, even if it were in a full stadium as weird as that sounds. For instance, the best WCs I can remember are Italy '90 and and France '98. Germany and then Brazil I'd rank after that ahead of Japan/Korea, Russia, South Africa and USA, which felt very similar to me. CFB and F1 along with soccer are the three sports I've been the most passionate about. CFB and F1 went way downhill for me. A big part of both declines for me is the geography. The conferences re-aligned for the sake of the almighty dollar. The Big Ten is supposed to be traditional midwestern football. Now Rutgers and Maryland have been in the for the past few years. Two places close to the ocean. Sure, they are just another team like the other members, but you just know when you're watching or following the games and the season that they just don't feel right. Especially Maryland which was in the aptly named Atlantic Coast Conference and played against schools that just felt more appropriate like the four NC schools including Duke and UNC. When Nebraska moved from the Big 12 North to the Big Ten West it did not feel off at all because Nebraska fits both geographic profiles. They can be viewed as Heartland or Midwest. Texas A&M left the Big 12 South for the SEC. That didn't feel as bad because College Station actual has that Gulf coast vibe like in Houston and SEC has tonnes of teams in states bordering the Gulf. Mizzou, in a midwestern state, also made the same conf. move but that it doesn't fit as perfectly. It's not too bad since Missouri does border the South and the SEC is the Southeastern Conference. Many, many more examples in college. One that almost happened that seemed illogical was Boise State going to the Big East, which started out as NE schools. For F1, Europe is their base. Then you have some traditional hotspots in various locales around the world we were used to and had some kind of motorsport culture like Brazil, Japan, Australia, USA and Canada for example. Then Bernie started to take some of these races away, especially in Europe because they couldn't pay what non-traditional Motorsport countries would pay for hosting fees. Azerbaijian, Qatar, Bahrain, Korea, Russia, India, China, Malaysia, Singapore is what I can name off the top of my head. This isn't as bad now that there are 22 races instead of the 16 like when I grew up, but too many of these races has just brought the good feels I had about the sport way down. I had a more sentimental connection to the NHL before the Sunbelt teams came in. It's not just because I grew up watching that NHL and now I'm an adult. I feel the exact same way about the NBA now as when I grew up watching it. If these leagues start putting teams in London or even crazier, Tokyo, I am pretty sure I'd start to feel differently about them. Doesn't have to be logical, but that's just how it is for me and that's part of the human condition. |
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Thing is, Bernie kept chasing TV money and hosting fees. He kept accepting millions from increasingly sketchy countries and hoped for increased international TV broadcasting fees as a result. India was a really good attempt but ultimately flopped, but a success in that country would have of course provided more eyeballs. Conversely, Liberty came in, opened F1 to social media and the 21st century, introduced F1TV, increased streaming and video playback and connectivity, and as a result F1 has generally just became a better product since their ownership began. Near the end of the Bernie days stands were worringly empty at a lot of major circuits but now they're jam-packed just about everywhere they go. |
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The turmoil in the (general) vicinity of the tournament, though unrelated and largely inconsequential, conveniently added even more fuel to the fire. |
The Dakar rally (originally known as the Paris-Dakar and still referred to as such by many) was held entirely in Saudia Arabia this year.
Though they've been moving it around quite a bit (including South America), and I think it's been decades since they actually ran it on the Sahara Desert route from Paris to Dakar, Sénégal. It's a pretty big deal to Europeans. |
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I'd go see a run-of-the-mill Bears or Packers team before I'd go see the first-place Jacksonville Jaguars. And seeing Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea play Nouméa, New Caledonia in Aussie rules football is going to turn my crank a lot less than seeing two historic Melbourne clubs battle it out. No matter how good the Indian Wells tournament gets it won't outshine the four grand slam tennis events. |
My bad, LOL, I meant Abu Dhabi instead of Qatar.
Liberty from the get go said they were trying to make F1 better, which was a thinly veiled shot at Bernie. They kept Bernie on a for a while as consultant or something but then told him to go away. I'm not enthused about the Miami race idea but yes, Liberty has definitely pointed F1 in the right direction. Now for me to actually start watching races again and not just highlights, and to go back to Montreal for first time since 2012 (have been to 9 races), they need to bring the engine noise back. The pitch I grew up hearing and to me is the best sound in the world. This is where the atmosphere part comes in for me. The atmosphere I discuss so often, probably ad nauseum! The ear blistering sound was orgasmic and added a visceral component that is sorely missing for me now. God I loved stepping out from Jean Drapeau station and hearing those cars during practice off in the distance. See Canadian GP from 2006: See Aussie GP pre and post engine regulation change: |
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Meanwhile, the big European soccer leagues all put teams where the demand is and not in non-traditional locations in the hopes of "growing the game". They're just as big as the NFL per capita, so I don't buy the argument that the NHL's model is the only or best way to grow the game. Most of the NHL's biggest money losers are sunbelt teams. And the NHL hasn't grown at all relative to its competitors. Quote:
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Some of the sunbelt teams are approaching 30 years old. They're not new. Quote:
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Gary Bettman's job is to make the current owners richer. I fail to see how a league with a few more Canadian teams valued at less than $400 million accomplishes that. We can talk about what someone personally feels is right for the league regarding legacy or whatnot, but the simple fact is that Bettman's expansion has created the most valuable league to date. |
Nordiques 2.0 would be owned by Quebecor who have about 10 billion.
The head of Quebecor PKP himself has a personal net worth around 2 billion. They're good. |
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If the hypothetical Nordiques 2.0 limited themselves to simply repeating what the Nordiques 1.0 did in terms of market impact, they'll become the go-to team for between a quarter and a third of hockey fans in the province. They certainly wouldn't be limited to the Greater Quebec City metro. That means a market of 2 to 2.5 million or maybe a bit more even, easily twice the size of the absolutely maxed out market potential for the Jets. Another thing they'd have that the Jets don't is for all intents and purposes their "own" sports network. The Jets compete for coverage in higher order sports media with the Leafs, Oilers, Flames, Canucks and Habs. If the Nords ever came back, one network out of RDS or TVA Sports would put the Habs front and centre, and the other would put the Nords front and centre. Having a mainline TV sports network (and associated magazines, newspapers and media platforms) talking up your team 24/7 is a huge asset. The Nordiques 1.0 succeeded in developing a fan base all across the province due to the media and marketing tools of the day - and they didn't even have the powerhouse Quebecor (likely owner) behind them back then. They'll also do well in terms of corporate sponsorships. As it stands now there can only be one official beer associated with an NHL team in Quebec, one official bank, one official restaurant chain, one official dépanneur chain, one official snack food, one official insurer, etc. Tons of potential sponsors shut out by exclusivity deals the Habs have with their competitors would support the Nordiques 2.0. You can be sure of it. Source: what things were like when the Nordiques 1.0 were there. These sponsors don't even have to be based in Quebec City. Nothing prevents or prevented the Nordiques from getting sponsors based in Montreal as most of them operate across the province. |
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This is only one hurdle but I see it as a pretty big one honestly. That, combined with the lack of potential growth in the fanbase in QC as opposed to other markets, simply makes it less tenable moving forward. The league will continue to use QC and Quebecor as a bargaining chip to raise expansion fees on other hopeful cities. Other issues with Quebec include its poor growth and the fact that its median age is quite a bit higher than the other NHL cities in Canada, on top of the fact that the NHL does not need another franchise pinned to the weaker Canadian dollar. |
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Habs fans are virtually unanimous in their desire to see the Nords return to the league. If only to have a rival that they will hate even more than the Bruins. As for interest in hockey in Quebec overall I have to say it remains higher than any other sport by far though it has nonetheless clearly declined quite a bit from its heyday in the 80s and early 90s where it seemed most everyone (certainly all young males) took a side in the Battle of Quebec and was paying attention. Not saying it's dead among young males but I know a lot of them and the percentage who don't follow hockey at all is higher than I ever thought possible. And I am not just talking about immigrant origin kids BTW. So at this point in 2020 hockey in Quebec is definitely not maxed out in terms of its fan base and support. It could be on the level of the NFL in the US or European soccer but it isn't. And it's moving slowly downward away from that. Not upwards. Passion for the NHL in Quebec (especially Habs-Nords) was once on the level of soccer in some of the big European countries or the NFL in the US, and the return of the Nordiques would probably pave the way for a return to that level of interest, all of which would actually greatly benefit the Habs financially as well. Though it's unclear if that team's braintrust actually realizes that. |
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https://media.limelight.com/images/SOOV2017_fig18.jpg Figure 18: How much of your online video viewing time is spent watching the following types of content?(Scale 0-4) Males https://www.limelight.com/resources/...ne-video-2017/ Quote:
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Fans don't care about the team's relative bottom line - at least not if the team isn't having any financial difficulty and is not threatening to fold or move. Which the Habs aren't at all. |
^ You mean the predominant concern of Habs fans isn't evangelizing the game in Utah and Puerto Rico? :hmmm:
To me, Montreal/Quebec was a regional rivalry on par with Edmonton/Calgary. Even in seasons where the latter teams are so bad as to be irrelevant (clearly not the case this season for Edmonton/Calgary, but still), those rivalry games are still special to fans and players. We certainly saw that this past Saturday. FWIW there are probably a good many people in Quebec who are tuned out of the NHL right now. I can tell you I was pretty well worthless to the NHL as a fan from 1996-2011... I'm not sure I watched one entire NHL game on television from start to finish during that period, and attended maybe half a dozen games in person while on vacation. These days I have half-season tickets for the Jets and I regularly watch games on TV or listen on the radio if I'm in the car while they're playing, and I have a pile of team merchandise. I'm certainly not alone in that regard. So even with a team in Winnipeg, the game has grown. |
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