Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141158)

Demography can change all it wants, but geography cannot and will not. Geography and history dictate where a place is. How it feels is irrelevant. Going by how a place feels, we can therefore declare that Huntsville is not in Alabama because of the presence of NASA, and that the Research Triangle Park is not in North Carolina because Andy and Opie never stroll through en route to the fishing pond.

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141116)

Considering that Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, no.

But then again, despite the fact that the first structure in what became the city of Miami was a sugar cane plantation, complete with slaves, and despite the fact that Florida fought for the Confederacy, and observes Confederate Memorial Day... People will vociferously fight the notion that Miami, or Florida, are Southern. Then again, they do the same with Atlanta, or any Southern city that boasts any diversity beyond the Black and white dynamic.

I think, actually that might be the better determinant of whether a place is Southern. Does it resemble an old episode of In the Heat of the Night? If so, it is Southern. However, if you can reliably obtain a good bowl of tom yum, a decent sushi roll, or if there is an Indian grocery store in the vicinity where one can purchase butter made from water buffalo milk, then it is not Southern.

In case it wasn't clear, I think the whole argument is silly. Is the place in question physically located south of the Mason-Dixon line? Was it a part of the Confederacy? If so, hooray -- it's Southern, no matter the modern demographics. It's akin to arguing up one side and down the other that some crummy suburb of Boston cannot possibly be in New England because it doesn't look like a Currier and Ives print.

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

Originally Posted by dave8721 (Post 9141908)

Parts of Florida did actually fight for the Union against the Confederacy. The only part of South Florida that was populated at the time (Key West) stayed with loyal to the Union and was an important union base against the confederacy, basically allowing the union to blockade the South and prevent the South from doing much business in and out of the Gulf of Mexico.

Originally Posted by bossabreezes (Post 9141615)

New York, erm, New Amsterdam was a Dutch outpost so clearly NYC is Dutch in culture and this can never change, history matters.

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan (Post 9142455)

I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142497)

When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142507)

It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142491)

That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142661)

I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)

You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)

Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)

You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9142719)

Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes.