-

^^^ i agree, if the market can't sustain the per sqf cost it doesn't make sense to build the building at all, not to say well 450 ft is profitable but 500 ft isn't. Generally once projects get started and theres no turning back they want to go higher because it is more profitable to have more units if they have already determined a market exists for the product, even if they might take longer to sell. I agree with the posters above that the sole reason for the building heights not being increased is the imposed height limit, and if that weren't in existance some of these projects would certainly be higher

a mixed bag, some are some aren't; just because someone comes from Mexico or central america doesn't mean they don't have money, you are playing in to a stereotype that all latin american immigrants are desolate poor people trying to escape across the border to work in agricultural fields and that's not the case. Believe it or not, there are middle income to wealthy mexican immigrants

true, but the public here are also hypocrits in many cases, they want SD to be a quaint small town but they also don't want to be inconvinienced. This is why I think that even the NIBMYs who want SD to remain a quaint beach town will come around when they start feeling the effects of an inadequate airport themselves - - - unfortunately, this will likely happen when the situation has become extreme and our economy is already hindered by the insufficent airport

I hope it happens. I think it is more SD's airport authority is trying to woo lufthansa, not so much the other way around. Lufthansa is concerned about the failed attempt of British Airways SD-London flight that was cancelled. The airport authority is trying to establish that since lufthansa is a star-alliance member the flights would have united airlines numbers making them exempt from the rule that government agencies must use domestic carriers. Since SD has alot of military that could open the market to significant passengers. We'll see if it works. I really think it would work, every time I fly Lufthansa from SD (via codeshare United) the codeshare flight is completely full with people connecting to Frankfurt

In your opinion (or you can base it on facts if you wish), what is the ratio of wealthy "south of the border" legal immigrants streaming north to invest their riches in the US and take advantage of cheap US labor, pro business attitudes and lax environmental laws vs. non-wealthy "south of the border" non-documented immigrants?

We will use a net worth of $100,000 as the baseline. I would say that the ratio is 10,000 to 1.

The next 40 years will certainly show a population increase. One thing to consider is that if you are planning to sell your McMansion in 20-25 years and retire on the proceeds, you may have trouble finding qualified buyers. Population trends indicate that the largest growing segment of the population/workforce will become less educated (by choice) and there will be higher competition for the lower paying jobs translating into less buying power per capita.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/sppd/futu...-achanging.pdf
http://pewhispanic.org/topics/index.php?TopicID=4

Well, I hope you're right, but I think many people here want SD's economy hindered. Plus, even if things got to the point where the vast majority of people wanted a new airport, they still wouldn't want it anywhere near their homes, so we run into some of the other problems like cost and available land.

There are too many reasons why an airport isn't going to happen, IMO.

The average person is going to say NO to a new airport because they'll never feel the effects of an airport that is too small and too crowded. How often does the average person fly? twice a year maybe? And that's usually maybe once in the summertime and once during the holidays. Delays and stuff during the holidays they'll play off as just the normal holiday rush, in the summertime, it must be all the vacationers. So to them, the delays don't make much of a difference because they only experience them once or twice a year. Unfortunately, those are the people that have the vast majority of the power and voice in this matter. The business travelers that come in and out of san diego once a week know exactly why a new airport is needed, but they are such a small percentage, they won't get their way.

I would think that a new airport out at sea wouldn't necessarily need a public vote, or a countywide ballot measure... I dont know. Same reason why a new airport out in the desert would be fairly easy, it directly doesn't affect THAT many people with construction and land. In the desert, you have to use eminent domain to make way for the HSR line, but out to sea, it would probably be easier.... except for the Coastal Commission of course.

Hotel in Ballpark Village alarms housing advocates
By Jeanette Steele
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

July 19, 2007


DOWNTOWN SAN DIEGO – The biggest hotel in San Diego County is being proposed for one of the city's most-discussed downtown properties: Ballpark Village, where people expected to see swanky condominiums, offices, shops and 35,000 square feet of affordable housing next to Petco Park.

Drawings of a $1 billion, 1,650-room Marriott convention hotel are being circulated by JMI Realty, the property development company of Padres Chairman John Moores.

The 500-foot-tall, twin-tower hotel already has attracted critics. Not only had JMI earlier envisioned condominiums, it signed a 2005 agreement with a labor and affordable-housing coalition saying there was “no intention” of putting a hotel there.

Some coalition members are crying foul. They say the roughly 1,900 hotel positions created will be “poverty jobs” that will create more names for the city's affordable-housing lists. The agreement with JMI said most Ballpark Village employees would earn $10 an hour plus benefits, or more, but it's unclear whether that requirement would affect the hotel, they said.

“We obviously will oppose this hotel as vigorously as possible unless they pay a living wage,” said Richard Lawrence, co-chairman of the San Diego Affordable Housing Coalition.

Others, including city officials, are wondering what the change means for the rest of the 7-acre Ballpark Village site and what's ahead for the affordable housing promised there.

Controversial project
Ballpark Village became controversial in late 2005 after a city-brokered deal requiring JMI and its partner Lennar to include low-income housing in the project was on the verge of approval by the San Diego City Council. The developers and the labor-affordable housing coalition suddenly came forward with an alternate scenario that called for more affordable housing – but it would be elsewhere in East Village.


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The compromise, after much rancor, was to put 35,000 square feet of affordable units at Ballpark Village as well as build some off-site housing. The off-site housing is now under construction.

JMI Realty President John Kratzer says his company hadn't planned a hotel until Marriott approached with a deal worth pursuing. The spirit of the agreement with the labor coalition, Kratzer said, was that if JMI changed its mind about a hotel, the coalition was free to oppose it.

“If the city doesn't want the hotel, we won't build it,” Kratzer said this week. “But it seems to me if there was an opportunity to generate $13 million or $14 million in (hotel taxes) for the city, that would be something they are interested in.”

He also said JMI is not backing away from the on-site affordable housing requirement. It will be built elsewhere on the 7 acres, as was always expected, Kratzer said.

Marriott International, based in Washington, D.C., has at least 15 properties in San Diego, including two hotels being built or proposed in downtown separate from Ballpark Village. It declined to comment on the latest project.

Rooms are welcomed
The Marriott project, which includes 60 condominiums, tops the list of at least five large hotels in the downtown pipeline. Hospitality industry officials say San Diego's booming convention business can use the beds, and the new supply might push down room rates in what has become an extremely expensive market.

“We typically are universally supportive of advancing the room inventory,” said Steve Johnson, San Diego Convention Center vice president. “It adds flexibility for our sales team to book business.”

Namara Mercer of the San Diego County Hotel-Motel Association said, “When you have an increase in room inventory, the average daily room rates may go down. But the (hotel tax) to the city will go up.”

It is also a possible signpost of the drooping housing scene downtown. Other projects once planned to be condominiums have stalled or the sites are up for sale.

With 1,650 rooms, the proposed Marriott, once completed, would be the county's largest hotel by about 25 units. The Manchester Grand Hyatt on Harbor Drive has 1,625 rooms.

Marriott calls its proposal a “convention hotel,” with 175,000 square feet of meeting space. A Hilton being built on port land across Harbor Drive follows the same concept, with 1,200 rooms and 165,000 square feet of convention space.

Johnson said the meeting space in these hotels is too small to compete with the convention center and won't derail its argument for expansion. Center officials have said the convention complex, which has 1.1 million square feet of meeting space, runs at capacity and needs more room.

Information sought
The Marriott proposal has a long way to go before heads could hit pillows.

The Centre City Development Corp., the city's downtown redevelopment agency, last week asked JMI for more information about how the hotel would affect development on the rest of the site. The developer also is asking for at least six points of departure from the site's master plan, which will require CCDC approval.

The Ballpark Village plan calls for 300,000 square feet of office space, 115,000 square feet of retail or commercial space and 35,000 square feet of affordable housing on the site. It allows the developer to decide where to put the affordable housing and whether to build condominiums or hotels. Kratzer said his company intends to meet those guidelines.

CCDC Chairman Fred Maas said he is open to considering the hotel, but that the affordable-housing commitment must be honored.

The Center on Policy Initiatives, a pro-labor think tank that was part of the Ballpark Village coalition, also is worried about commitments.

“We made a deal with them, and now they want to redo this deal,” research director Murtaza Baxamusa said.

Someone from the California forum told me to come here to post information about a San Diego meet we're doing on August 11. Details in the link to the thread below:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=134463

I am not arguing about your ratios or anything, I was just making a point that the population will be increasing and that translates to a need for more air paasengers to be accomodated, even if a lot of immigrants are poor. Bangkok just built an airport that i must say is extremely nice, I was in it 3 weeks ago and that city sees alot of wealthy foregners moving in as well as scores of dirt-poor refugees from the countryside which percentage-wise out-number the "wealthier people" by alot yet it is growing as a major air hub in SE Asia. I was in Bombay/Mumbai as well, and there are plans for a new airport because theirs is pretty gross and decaying. Both these cities have far more refugee influx of people at the lower end of the economic spectrum percentage-wise than San Diego does when you look at their immigration figures, yet their air passenger index is increasing with the population growth. You make it sound like the need for airline travel will decrease because our city is going to become poorer with uneducated people who don't travel by plane, and these people will stop the demand for increased air travel, I don't buy it because it hasn't happened elswhere where refugees contribute FAR greater percentage-wise to the immigrant populations than they do here.

A floating airport still seems a bit far-fetched to me. It'll be interesting to see how the idea moves forward.

I'd agree that it would be more practical to have passenger baggage check-in/pick-up and screening, and what-not, at a land-based location. A floating airport does not need lookee-loos getting in the way.

Passengers and luggage should then proceed to the floating facility along a secured path so security issues are not a concern. If it's 10 miles off the coast... it should also be fast to cut down on time. If the amount of time it takes between check-in and take-off is too extended... the less attractive of a service it becomes for users. I am afraid a ferry driven method would be too slow. A ferry also looks more vulnerable to variations in weather and quite possibly security.

As for some type of rail service to transport users, baggage, employees, and airport supplies/freight to the floating facility... that would be exhorbantly expensive. I'll guess $500m per mile to construct. 10 miles and we're talking $5 billion for the rail line. I am sure travel time to the airport would be at least 5 minutes, maybe 10 or more depending on the design speed and technology used.

All-in-all, I'd favor rebuilding a replacement to Miramar for the military at a site of their choosing (other than Lindbergh)... and then once the military is functional elsewhere... to redevelop Miramar into a commercial airport. In the absence of any solution really in sight, certianly nothing before 2015 or 2020... I remain steadfast about support for California High Speed Rail as an option to reduce demand for take-offs and landings for in-state air travel between the major metropolitan areas and push-out the projected date when Lindbergh would reach its expected capacity.

I agree 110%.

&@#^($!(*&($@!^%@

Oh goody, twin towers:yuck:

I think our city would win in a thread about which city has the most sets of twin towers (not that it's a good thing of course). New York might win though because of all the commieblocks.

according to Float Inc. it is a bit less than $500 per mile (note: their proposal is 3 miles off-shore)

btw, their rendering:

http://www.floatinc.com/Floatport%20color.jpg

I did go off on a tangent. I actually don't have an opinion on the airport except that I don't think that the desert or ocean floating ideas have any merit.

Unfortunately, I do believe that the overall population will get younger, poorer and less educated in the next 25-40 years (based on population trends) in all of the US and especially in Southern California.

I can't see Kevin Costner in this rendering.

Regarding the construction of a multi staged airport, with parking and security and checkin in a location separate from the actual terminals and planes... the first one/two stages would be identical regardless of whether the airport were in the ocean or in the desert.

1. you would have residents of their area of the county park and take express transit to the main security and check in hub. (residents could also drive straight to it and park if they'd prefer)

2. hub would take luggage and transport it to the airport where you would just await your check in time and get on and get going.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1...portmapuo2.gif

The only question is which of the final spots for the airplanes and main hub is preferable. This debate is on the final location of the runways and planes.

Desert:
Pros- on land, land would be cheap, lack of residential noise, room for expansion, likely safe approach, good level of security
Cons- to create a route to the airport you would either have to go through the hilly east county or around the hills. It would take a long time, and track length would increase cost. Not ideal "entrance" to san diego.

Ocean:
Pros- great welcome to san diego, innovative and instantly world famous, high security protection, infinite room for expansion, no noise for residents, easiest approach in the world completely flat, possible environmental pluses
Cons- possibly very expensive, unproven at this scale technology, the how to get there debate, tunnel etc., possible environmental dangers

I actually think placing all the security/check-in on land will actually pose a greater threat to security.

I suppose my only question is... is this topic the right place for this thread? I thought there was some sort of 'fantasy' forum or something. I reviewed the float.com web site... and because it is so shallow I cannot take it too seriously at all. I am afraid the idea of an ocean airport, although supported my an apparent legitimate company (???), will never float.

It is not fantasy, it's unlikely to happen in my opinion, but people are putting design ideas together with the idea it could be possible, it's not like people are desinging 1000 ft towers to show how they would look in SDs skyline knowing they can't happen. The idea of a floating airport is not new, and I heard legitimate architects talking about it on NPR back before the Miraramar vote when people were discussing options.

I admit this board has been spending quite some time on the issue, but:

(1) theres not a whole heck of a lot else going on development-wise here; if people have interesting stuff post it and our minds will wander from the floating airport

(2) the situation our city is in with regards to the airport is leading people to explore alternatives, which I think is healthy. Even if the floating airport doesn't happen maybe some of the concepts and ideas could evolve into a more practical solution

Since we will never have a skyscraper that can compete with the likes of a Sears Tower, Potronas Towers, Empire State Building, etc, and since the Coronado Bridge is nowhere near as asthetically pleaseing as the golden gate, maybe a floating airport is just what SD needs to put us on the map and be our architectural icon. If we are the first in the world to do it, it would definately make out city look great worldwide if it's a success.

Many of the worlds greatest structural achievements that are admired and looked at as icons today were thought of as being loony far-fetched wastes of time and money being proposed by a bunch of crazies by NIMBYs of days past. I guarantee a floating airport WILL exist somehwere in the world in the next 50 years (a true floating airport as opposed to the current man-made island airports in Japan), so SD can either forge forward and take the challenge or wait and have Dubai or Sydney or Osaka or some other seaside city take the plunge.

:fruit:

That's funny!

Check out this link about a San Diego area monorail...

http://www.sdmonorail.com/Routes.htm

It's a little outdated (2005), but I really like the idea! It goes out to densely populated areas that the trolley system doesn't really serve.

Here's a map of where the monorail routes would go. Notice the connection to Coronado.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1...system_map.gif

I like the Fifth Avenue line from Hillcrest all the way down to Petco Park, but I'm not sure how they were thinking to pull that off. In Seattle, the supports for their monorail system are placed in the center median of the road, and there certainly isn't enough room to do that here on Fifth.

Floating airport???

Monorail???

Floating airport with monorail...awesome
:upload_71700:

The plan mentioned actual specifics like where the supports would go. They said they would go in the lane which is used for parking and would claim only (only?) 1 out of 4 spaces. They also mentioned the details for the Coronado route such as building a Caltrava bridge.

^Oh I missed it! Thanks for the information there. I'm totally for it though.

Here's something we missed in UTC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Loop

Yeah, I remember this episode of the Simpsons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail

I like his description saying that "Most of the worlds monorail systems are in the Orient...". Are these trains being operated by Orientals?

21st Century thinking done by a guy with a 19th Century vocabulary.

Looks like NBC is moving closer to happening. Design-wise, it looks like something you'd see along the 405 in Orange County...:yuck:

Larger and more renderings:

http://www.ccdc.com/resources/resour...1Submittal.pdf

http://www.ccdc.com/resources/resour...s_20070702.pdf



Panel Advances Navy Broadway Plan

Downtown project OK'd amid concerns

By Jeanette Steele
SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

July 21, 2007

DOWNTOWN SAN DIEGO – The massive Navy Broadway project won pivotal approvals from San Diego's downtown redevelopment agency yesterday – though officials worried that it might become a playground for wealthy customers of designer shops and luxury hotels, not for the average person.

The vote by a Centre City Development Corp. committee means developer Doug Manchester nearly has an approved master plan for 2.89 million square feet of hotels, offices, shops and a museum on a premier eight-block site between Harbor Drive and Pacific Highway.

The issue must return to the agency for a formal vote next week.

Four of the seven buildings he proposes also passed the first of four stages of approvals.

But construction won't begin until after several lawsuits are settled, said Perry Dealy, Manchester Development president. The cases aren't expected to be heard until year's end.

The $1.2 billion Navy Broadway project is being driven by a 1992 agreement between San Diego and the Navy, which owns the land. The Navy gave Manchester a 99-year lease to redevelop the property, but critics have argued – and sued – saying the 15-year-old agreement is outdated.

If everything goes his way, Manchester hopes to start next summer on the project's first four pieces: a new Navy headquarters, a hotel, an office building and a twin-tower hotel and office structure.

Most CCDC board members criticized and praised the master plan yesterday.

“It's still not (supermodel) Heidi Klum, but it's not a gorilla either,” Chairman Fred Maas said.

The board particularly liked the wide outdoor terraces shown on the lower floors of some buildings, which would let visitors enjoy the weather and bay views. If there's a San Diego style of architecture, some said, this is it.

The agency had green-lighted an earlier version in November, but the developer pulled it back to tweak some aspects.

One change was to narrow the central pedestrian paseo, or plaza, to 55 feet, instead of the earlier 80 to 115 feet. Some board members had felt it needed a more intimate feel.

The loudest dissenter on the board was Teddy Cruz, a visual-arts professor at the University of California San Diego. He knocked the plan for channeling visitors into the paseo, surrounded by shops, instead of toward the bayfront.

Cruz also said the museum site, at the south end, should be next to the 1.9-acre public park on the north end. If not, Cruz said, “this park just becomes the lobby for a hotel or office space.”

He also said public agencies or arts-related groups should have been given a place. “Otherwise, this will become a shopping venue, another mall, that compromises the civic character of this site.”

Board members shared some of Cruz's concerns about public access.

The focus turned to the paseo, which Manchester revealed will be lined with high-end fashion stores. If that becomes San Diego's Rodeo Drive, it may make average people feel left out, some said.

Board member Jennifer LeSar said that means the park, which the city will develop, must make residents of all classes and cultures feel welcome.

San Diego's business community came out in force to support Manchester's project. “Make our front door something to be proud of,” said Scott Alevy of the San Diego Regional Chamber of Commerce.

One of the few people voicing opposition was Bankers Hill resident Al Weiss.

“We've missed the basic question,” he said. “Do we want something for us, a present to the citizens of San Diego? Or do we just want to maximize the commercial development of this piece of ground?”

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...03/navy430.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...03/navy430.gif

I'll be there for demolition. ;)

I like the scope of the project but those renderings are uninspiring.

I also think this:

is impossible to stop. Why think that the 'average person' will be able to afford shopping here if they can't afford to live in any of the new projects going up around it?

More on that.

http://www.sandag.org/index.asp?proj...rojects.detail

I kinda agree, while not a bad proposal there is something about it that just seems bland. If it were going in somewhere else downtown I would be all for it, but it just doesn't seem to live-up to it's prime waterfront location. While I fully support density and skyscrapers well over 500ft in San Diego, I think the immediate waterfront area shouldn't be boxed in and should have something less "bulky" and something more distinct and innovative that could be encorporated with park or interactive space. I mean hotels, condos, yadda those are everywhere, the waterfront should have something more unique and open. But, on the other hand, if the choice is to have the Navy Broadway Complex or the hideous outdated buildings that exist now I'll take the NBC proposal

I have been complaining for 4 years now that we need something to link uptown (Hillcrest, North park, Bankers Hill, etc) with downtown, i am so glad to hear people are at least thinking about it. It always seemed rediculous to me that you can take the trolley out to East County but not up the hill to Uptown. I know the density, Balboa Park, etc make it very challenging to build, but with the development going on downtown and the development going on in uptown, I think connecting the two with some sort of mass transit would really make our overall urban center seem larger and more vibrant. As it is now, I feel like if I go into Uptown it feels like I'm going into a seperate city

RE: NBC

When I saw the latest renderings after reading the article this morning I couldn't help but wonder how in the hell NBC's project design is getting worse as newer renderings come out. I now find myself longing for the original rendering that I irresponsibly derided. Tilt-up anyone? My only hope is that street life there is activated enough to divert your eyes from anything above ground. (And building one, the hotel/office tower is fine, but how do they manage to refer to the other hotel as spanish colonial?) Its like Gensler saw Cobb's Irvine Co. tower and said, "you call this a box?"

If anything, a subway should be build going through all the inner city neighborhoods up to SDSU, as there isn't really room for above ground rail transit (except for an above ground monorail, which is actually pretty cool).

What really blocks the waterfront are superblock projects and the damn trolley and train rails. Those low-rise condo's+Pantoja Park+the trolley lines are whats messing up the access to the bay. The trolley line screw up the street grid and allows only about three streets to connect to Harbor Dr. I wish the city would quit talking about stupid park projects at the embarcadero and underground those tracks along harbor drive. Maybe projects like NBC could be tweaked a little to improve access by changing the perception of traffic, but I think the three causes I mentioned are the real problems.

The trolley adds a certain special attribute to the city, but I agree about the cargo train track, that thing needs to be submerged or diverted or something. They always send them at the best times, too. Like a half hour before Padres games, or as soon as the game is over. It is quite annoying. I wonder how many complaints the city recieves every year regarding these trains.

I hope they get blowned up soon.

Is that in addition to all the bus routes in UC?

Either way it will help out a lot.

I drive shuttles for UCSD and both of our city routes are always PACKED with people (and not everybody showers or wears deodorant..).

Those have definitely got to go.

I guess it's more like a bus rapid transit system. And I think it is in addition to the current UC routes. It's like an area-specific bus route called the "UCOro" or something along the lines of that.

The Trolley is very valuable to San Diego and the region, but if it is to continue being important, particularly in light of all the growth downtown and region is to expect, then it should be put underground to allow for longer trains, high speeds, and more frequent service. Or, it could be put above ground like the Chicago 'L'. Too bad each takes a poop-load of money and it's not like the city has much to contribute. And the Feds will not pay for more than half. And Schwarzenneger is all about highways.

I thought Schwarzenneger supported HSR.

His actions with the state budget indicate otherwise by slashing the Authority's budget to just paying staff and keeping the lights on. He's also not as green as he says he is by having his staffers try to minimize some of the environmental regulations implemented by the California Air Resources Board that are consistent with what voters passed. What's on the cover of Time and other magazines touting him as being 'environmental' is a ruse. ... probably to remain in the spotlight... appear significant... and maybe just to get re-elected in November 2008. It appears his governorship is really just him bieng on a different stage than in front of a camera.

Guess what happened after the Padres game! They send a 46276134 mile long train out! Seriously, that needs to stop.

I agree, I think underground would make the most sense but will never happen anytime soon with the cost. The other day these two girls wearing like 5 inch heels who were apparently drunk or high or something were stumbling across the trolley tracks across Park Blv, one of them said something the other thought was funny and she dropped her purse and then they both fell to the ground laughing histarically. After the oncoming trolley honked like 20 times seeing them from afar, it actually had to stop in it's tracks

I agree the trolley is important to our city but how seriously can you take mass transit that can be halted by two drunk hoochies in the middle of the street?? :lmao: