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-   -   SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2 (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126473)

Derek Oct 1, 2007 10:48 PM

It definitely wants attention.

eburress Oct 2, 2007 1:18 AM

As always, I don't like how it gets wider as it gets taller. Top-heavy buildings is never good.

Derek Oct 2, 2007 2:04 AM

I definitely teared up a bit as Peavy left.

:(

keg92101 Oct 2, 2007 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3087006)
I definitely teared up a bit as Peavy left.

:(

Figgin nerve racking...

bmfarley Oct 2, 2007 4:15 AM

Maybe Trevor Hoffman is not the closer we've been led to believe! No?

Derek Oct 2, 2007 4:25 AM

fuck this

CoastersBolts Oct 2, 2007 4:38 AM

It's not Trevor's fault, entirely. It just so happened that one of his rare two game slumps that happens twice every year happened at the wrong time. Besides, look how poorly Peavy pitched. Also, the fact that this team could never capitalize with RISP came back to bite them in the butt...big time. Time to start spending some dough to get guys who will hit Mr. Moores.

Moving on. Does anyone know when we will start seeing some more retail establishments pop up around the bases of some of the newer East Village towers like Icon, Park Terrace, etc?

Derek Oct 2, 2007 4:41 AM

When rent drops.

mongoXZ Oct 2, 2007 4:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3087291)
fuck this

It's tough to be a San Diego sports fan isn't it?

sandiegodweller Oct 2, 2007 4:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoastersBolts (Post 3087324)
It's not Trevor's fault, entirely. It just so happened that one of his rare two game slumps that happens twice every year happened at the wrong time. Besides, look how poorly Peavy pitched. Also, the fact that this team could never capitalize with RISP came back to bite them in the butt...big time. Time to start spending some dough to get guys who will hit Mr. Moores.

Moving on. Does anyone know when we will start seeing some more retail establishments pop up around the bases of some of the newer East Village towers like Icon, Park Terrace, etc?

Quit making excuses for Hoffman. This isn't a slump, he is done.

How many runs does he need to save a game?

He looks great with a 3 run lead and facing the 6,7,8,9 batters in the lineup.

Next save he gets in a big game will be his first in a decade.

mongoXZ Oct 2, 2007 4:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley (Post 3085257)
I agree.. the Chargers are in dis-array.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ics/Bahia1.jpg

I kinda like this building. It'll densify the East village even more.

bmfarley Oct 2, 2007 6:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongoXZ (Post 3087335)
It's tough to be a San Diego sports fan isn't it?

I suspect not for tranplants still having loyalties with their previous abodes. My Texas Rangers finished 10+ games below 0.500! Fortunately I have the Cowboys to root for. .. as well as teh Mavericks this coming NBA season.

HurricaneHugo Oct 2, 2007 7:40 AM

..damnit there's a long line at the coronado bridge...:(

mongoXZ Oct 3, 2007 1:49 AM

Webcam upsdates!
Webcam updates. . .

Aria
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyImages/Aria-01.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205323.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744207947.jpg

Hilton & Legend

http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyImages/Hilton[1].jpg

http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...ng%20Final.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205388.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744206941.jpg

Vantage Pointe
http://www.vantagepointesd.com/media...Building01.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744206020.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205447.jpg

17th & G :)
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...20%20G_web.jpg
http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205520.jpg

Strata site being cleared :)
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...rata_Final.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205948.jpg

Residence Inn Marriott (best angle I can find)
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...sidenceINn.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744205734.jpg

The Lofts @ 707 10th Avenue
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...0G%20Lofts.jpg
http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744207398.jpg


Breeza, Bosa Bayside, Sapphire
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyImages/Breeza.jpg

http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...fic_hwyAsh.jpg

http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...re%20Tower.jpg

http://live6.truelook.com/timages/li...7744206423.jpg

Derek Oct 3, 2007 3:00 AM

Aria looks hot. :)

SDCAL Oct 3, 2007 5:14 PM

L I B R A R Y T O W E R U P D A T E :-)
 
From today's Wall Street Journal

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...1002204613.jpg




Developers Seek More Hotel Rooms for Hot Area
By MAURA WEBBER SADOVI
October 3, 2007; Page B4

A vacant lot near San Diego's Petco Park was once slated for a sleek 43-story luxury condominium project. Now, as the hotel market continues to strengthen and the residential market cools, the tower's developer, Centurion Partners LLC, is weighing whether to add hotel rooms into the design mix to cash in on the area's strong tourism industry.


Centurion Partners LLC may include hotel rooms in a 43-story project known as Library Tower.
The tower's developer isn't the only one impressed by the San Diego region's ability to attract travelers willing to pay some of the country's highest -- and still rising -- hotel rates.

With about 7,733 hotel rooms in the planning, bidding and postbidding phases in the region as of the second quarter, the area's hotel-room pipeline is the country's fifth most-active out of 54 major U.S. markets tracked by Property & Portfolio Research Inc., a Boston real-estate research firm. The Las Vegas market was the most active with nearly 20,000 hotel rooms in the planning, bidding and post-bidding phases, and Phoenix was second with about 10,600 rooms.

The San Diego area's weather, sparkling coastline and chic restaurants have long been a draw for visitors. Still, the city's position as a travel and convention destination has been bolstered by the 2004 opening of Petco Park, home to the San Diego Padres baseball team, a 2001 expansion of the convention center, and other residential and commercial developments that have helped to make downtown San Diego more lively, boosters say. Visitor spending in San Diego County is expected to rise to a record $8.2 billion in the fiscal year ending June, up from $7.8 billion this past fiscal year, according to the San Diego Convention and Visitors Bureau.

BY THE NUMBERS


Second quarter
San Diego 2007 2006
Hotel occupancy 74.8% 74.6%
Avg. daily rm. rate $139.08 $129.67
Office vacancy 13.1% 10.6%
Avg. annual rent/s.f. $29.43 $28.46
Apt. vacancy 3.4% 2.8%
Avg. monthly rent $1,481.78 $1,434.19
Median home price $614,100 $613,100

Sources: Property & Portfolio Research Inc., Smith Travel Research, Natl. Assn. of RealtorsThe growth is perhaps more remarkable, coming as the San Diego metropolitan area's overall economy has seen a dramatic downshift stemming from its slowing housing, construction and financial sectors. "We are a shining light in an otherwise less rosy picture," says Steven B. Johnson, a spokesman for San Diego Convention Center Corp., which manages the center. Year-over-year job levels in the region rose by just 0.2% in the second quarter, down from an annual average rate of 1.3% from 2002 to 2006, according to Moody's Economy.com. Nationally, year-over-year job levels rose 1.5% in the second quarter, from an annual average rate of 0.9% from 2002 to 2006.

A question on the horizon is how many of the proposed projects will actually be built as the current credit crunch makes it more expensive for many to finance new construction. A good chunk of hotel projects, however, are near delivery and unlikely to be affected. This year alone 10 new or renovated hotels are slated to be completed in San Diego County, according to the visitors bureau. Among the openings: the 420-suite Hard Rock Hotel San Diego is opening its doors this fall.

If all the projects do get built as expected, the San Diego hotel industry could have a different challenge on its hands -- how to fill so many rooms. The answer, according to Mr. Johnson of the San Diego Convention Center, may be to expand the center again. He acknowledges the approach could face opposition given the local economy's downturn, but the center is hoping to find a creative way to fund doubling the size of its meeting space without putting an additional tax burden on residents. "If people can't pay their mortgages, the answer is not to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's to expand the industry to help fund all the city services," says Mr. Johnson.

SDCAL Oct 3, 2007 5:21 PM

17 & G
 
http://www.ccdc.com/images/propertyI...20%20G_web.jpg

This rendering looks cool - - a smaller project but looks nice, hopefully it will turn out like the rendering -

SDCAL Oct 3, 2007 5:34 PM

Ballpark Sky Lofts
 
Another cool looking small project looks like it will get underway in EV, they have a website up

Here are some renderings from their website ballparkskylofts.com
http://www.ballparkskylofts.com/art/photo3.jpg

http://www.ballparkskylofts.com/art/index_photo.jpg

http://www.ballparkskylofts.com/art/photo2.jpg

keg92101 Oct 3, 2007 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3090341)
From today's Wall Street Journal

A question on the horizon is how many of the proposed projects will actually be built as the current credit crunch makes it more expensive for many to finance new construction. A good chunk of hotel projects, however, are near delivery and unlikely to be affected. This year alone 10 new or renovated hotels are slated to be completed in San Diego County, according to the visitors bureau. Among the openings: the 420-suite Hard Rock Hotel San Diego is opening its doors this fall.

If all the projects do get built as expected, the San Diego hotel industry could have a different challenge on its hands -- how to fill so many rooms. The answer, according to Mr. Johnson of the San Diego Convention Center, may be to expand the center again. He acknowledges the approach could face opposition given the local economy's downturn, but the center is hoping to find a creative way to fund doubling the size of its meeting space without putting an additional tax burden on residents. "If people can't pay their mortgages, the answer is not to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's to expand the industry to help fund all the city services," says Mr. Johnson.

Whether it is the convention center, the Main Library, the Harbor Drive Bridge, crosswalks, or whatever, The public sector needs to start pumping money into infrastructure projects again. The last major one was Petco Park, and Private investment shot through the roof. I think the number is like $4 or $5 of private money for every $1 of public money spent, and it may be even higher. Point being, the city has to show that they are committed to the area by investing in the community. I personally think that they need to do a complete overhaul on the library's design to bring it back to reality. It is pushin north of $500 per sf, without FF&E. You can get great architectural design with FF&E for less than $500 per SF, LEED certified and all.

Coastal SD Oct 3, 2007 8:19 PM

I perked up when a post stated that 17th & G had commenced construction. However, the webcam picture shows that the project is, in fact, Father Joe's Village on 16th & Market.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...16thMarket.jpg

Father Joe's Village and JMI Realty/Lennar plan to build a mixed-use affordable housing project on the northwest corner of 16th and Market streets. The project, which is part of the affordable housing component of the Ballpark Village project, will feature 136 rental apartments with price-restrictions to serve households earning between 30 and 65 percent of the area median income. The building will also include 5,000 square feet of retail space and 114 parking spaces. Construction is anticipated to commence in summer 2007 and be completed in early 2009.

Rather than catering once again (Lillian Place, Parkside Terrace, Island Village) to very low income households, it would be nice to see a new affordable housing project for the workforce - teachers, nurses, college grads, families, etc. who make closer to 90 percent of AMI, want to live downtown but can't afford a condo or want to pay $2500 a month for a two bedroom apartment above Albertson's. Typically, these individuals don't qualify for the affordable projects that have been built. East Village won't truly be a desirable place to live until it becomes a neighborhood for families - parks, schools, retail are all needed. That's why downtown Vancouver is so successful - families choose the urban setting over suburbia.

sandiegodweller Oct 3, 2007 8:24 PM

I don't see how the Library Tower site would make an attractive hotel project. It is several blocks away from everything in tough part of East Village (12th and K).

I have the same issue with Hotel Indigo and it is 3 blocks closer (9th and Island) to Gaslamp.

SDCAL Oct 3, 2007 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3090704)
I don't see how the Library Tower site would make an attractive hotel project. It is several blocks away from everything in tough part of East Village (12th and K).

I have the same issue with Hotel Indigo and it is 3 blocks closer (9th and Island) to Gaslamp.

I disagree, I think hotel Indigo and Library Tower are close enough to the ballpark and convention center to draw customers. As big projects like that expand further out, other smaller projects like retail and restaurants will fill in

It seems like alot of hotels are planned, but from all the statistics I've read we need them

I really want DT SD to be known for more than just the gaslamp. The gaslamp is nice, but I don't think every major develpoment needs to be in that immediate area.

I do agree with Keg, though - - the key right now is infrastructure. It NEEDS to catch-up if any of these new projects are to be a success. New main library, a conventioncenter expansion and the pedestrial bridge over harbor ave are all needed to keep the momentum in EV

keg92101 Oct 3, 2007 8:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3090704)
I don't see how the Library Tower site would make an attractive hotel project. It is several blocks away from everything in tough part of East Village (12th and K).

I have the same issue with Hotel Indigo and it is 3 blocks closer (9th and Island) to Gaslamp.

Are you kidding regarding Hotel Indigo? Its not in the gaslamp, but is right next to the ballpark, and a walk down 10th, after the bridge is done will put you at the convention center. Plus, living in East Village, it will bring cabs to our neighborhood!

sandiegodweller Oct 3, 2007 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3090756)
Are you kidding regarding Hotel Indigo? Its not in the gaslamp, but is right next to the ballpark, and a walk down 10th, after the bridge is done will put you at the convention center. Plus, living in East Village, it will bring cabs to our neighborhood!

If they can pull off something like the Ivy, it might work. The problem is that the Hard Rock will steal a lot of the nightlife for the near future.

How many hipsters are in downtown San Diego to support all of the high-end bars and clubs?

Derek Oct 3, 2007 9:52 PM

Regardless of any opinions, national attention on one specific project is great news.


Anybody see the sink hole in La Jolla?

keg92101 Oct 4, 2007 1:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3090901)
If they can pull off something like the Ivy, it might work. The problem is that the Hard Rock will steal a lot of the nightlife for the near future.

How many hipsters are in downtown San Diego to support all of the high-end bars and clubs?

From what I hear, Hotel Indigo isn't the bar destination of the W, but Intercontinental is a huge international brand, and like ConVis says, many of our rooms are booked based on business or customer loyalty programs. Indigo is their new "branded" hotel. Its already up on their website as a future hotel, so we'll see how it works out.

keg92101 Oct 4, 2007 1:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley (Post 3087498)
I suspect not for tranplants still having loyalties with their previous abodes. My Texas Rangers finished 10+ games below 0.500! Fortunately I have the Cowboys to root for. .. as well as teh Mavericks this coming NBA season.

On a side note, did you ever end up reading "The Great Society Subway"?

sandiegodweller Oct 4, 2007 2:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3091382)
From what I hear, Hotel Indigo isn't the bar destination of the W, but Intercontinental is a huge international brand, and like ConVis says, many of our rooms are booked based on business or customer loyalty programs. Indigo is their new "branded" hotel. Its already up on their website as a future hotel, so we'll see how it works out.

I didn't realize it was part of a hotel group. CCDC misstates that the developer is International Hotel, not Intercontinental. That should help. I thought it was a stand-alone, off-brand.

I don't see the future San Diego hotel on their website, do you have a link?

Who do you work for?

bmfarley Oct 4, 2007 3:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3091384)
On a side note, did you ever end up reading "The Great Society Subway"?

I'm taking a little time each week to flip the pages.

mongoXZ Oct 5, 2007 2:33 AM

Rethinking Large Condo Projects

Residential developers push back start dates and
incorporate retail, office and hotels into their projects


By Marty Graham of San Diego Metro

The number of residential buildings bursting from Downtown has slowed to a near halt this year. Many are still coming, albeit later than planned and often changed to include more types of uses, including hotel rooms. But because big investment money is tight, a dozen or so projects planned and approved by the Centre City Development Corp. hang somewhere between the drawing board and groundbreaking. Of those that once had projected a December 2007 groundbreaking – 15th & Island (617 units), Cosmopolitan Square (290 units), Embassy 1414 (97 units) and Library Tower (174 units) – all are delayed.

But most, in some form, are still coming, says Russ Valone of Marketpointe Realty Advisors. “To dig a hole might be a little optimistic right now,” Valone says. “But the demand is going to return.”

Not all the projects are stalled. Bosa Developments, the Godzilla of Downtown builders, continues to lumber along. And small projects, like the Ballpark Skylofts and the Olde Cracker Factory, continue because they aren’t counting on the equity market for capital. “We’re starting construction on our mixed use project,” says Cracker Factory co-owner Caryl Chabot. “We own the land – it’s been in the family since my grandfather bought it for $85,000. We didn’t come in as investors who have to try to make the project pencil out.”

The Cracker Factory, in a historically significant building, will yield office and retail space with four penthouse lofts atop. Construction is under way.

Similarly, Greg Paquette, a partner in Ballpark Skylofts, says the development is moving forward. The seven-story, 16-unit building is planned for 15th Street, between Market and Island.

“We’re still in the quagmire of city planning because we lost both the planners who signed off on our project,” Paquette says. “But we expect to have our permits in 45 to 90 days and we’ll break ground as soon as we do.”

Paquette’s been watching other developments stall and flounder, with the exception of the privately funded projects or those planned by companies that specialize in urban high-rises. He says it all comes down to financing. “We’ve got our financing dialed in,” Paquette says. “We’re a tiny outfit and we don’t have to have huge profit margins. But we see the monster companies lumbering forward, too.”

Bosa, for example, continues to plan to break ground on its Pacific Highway at E project that will bring 473 new condominiums to market in 2011, according to Dennis Serraglio.

“We planned to be able to ride this out,” Serraglio says. “We’ve seen real estate cycles in many markets many times – it’s part of a reasonable balance, but we have a lot of confidence in the Downtown market and we have established relationships with our lenders.

“We’re building. We’re not worried,” he adds.

As Valone sees it, the people who continue to build are seeing the market clearly. “We’ve got 1,800 units in unsold new product coming between now and 2009, and between 400 and 600 resale units on the market, and to some people that signals saturation,” he adds. “But we know the market absorbs 500 to 600 units a year, so by the time a developer who breaks ground now completes his, it will be the only game in town.”

Since 2000, developers have built several dozen new residential and mixed-use projects bringing nearly 8,000 new condos, hundreds of hotel rooms and many square miles of retail space to the once sleepy Downtown. More than 20,000 people have moved in, creating an overnight residential neighborhood. Investors and flippers have come and gone, helping to boost prices and create a buzz as well as an unrealistic perception of demand.

Now, with construction financing tight and tepid interest from buyers, the market has changed to a slow and thoughtful one.

“There are at least a dozen projects that have been entitled and are on hold – some developers are waiting patiently, some projects are being changed to hotels or to add hotel rooms, some are being redesigned to have office components or to be mixed use,” says Sherman Harmer, a principal with Urban Housing Partners. “Mixed use and particularly hotel rooms are easier to get financing for,” he says. “With the slowdown, people have the time to be innovative and creative in what they plan.”

For example, Harmer points to Avion Developments, on 16th and G streets, which began its life on paper as a 500-unit residential tower. The developer now plans to combine retail, commercial, condominiums and apartments in one building.

“Mixed use projects and better designs reduce risk,” Harmer says.

The former Elle project at Columbia and A streets, now called the Columbia Tower, has added a hotel component and the Celagio condo project has been completely redone into Hotel Indigo. The Embassy 1414 project on Columbia and Ash streets is also adding hotel rooms, says Donna Alm of the CCDC.

The Cosmopolitan Tower, planned for Seventh and Island avenues by Simplon, also has added hotel rooms. The second phase of the Solara Towers will include office and retail and is now adding hotel rooms.

Some projects are becoming rentals for the time being, and others are being sold.

The McMillin Co. is looking to sell its property at 14th and K streets, where it planned to build 222 condominiums, 9,000 square feet of retail space and 300 parking spaces, and there are offers for it, insiders say.

In September, KB Home sold its fully permitted project at 10th and B streets to CCDC and Silverwood, which has switched the plans to affordable apartments.

A DR Horton project at 16th and Island is on hold. T.C. Holdings, which has an approved condo project at 11th and B streets, seems to be holding on and waiting, observers say. The developer did not return phone calls for this story.

The publicly held companies that specialize in suburban homes, like KB Home and DR Horton, seem to be on their way out of Downtown.

“They came in because they saw a unique opportunity that took them away from their core business. It’s a big commitment to build a 300-unit building that can’t be sold in phases the way a tract of homes can be,” Harmer observes. “They came and built good projects — Acqua Vista and Cortez Blu, Gaslamp Square — but they are controlled by short-term results. For them to make a three-year commitment to get units to market is very difficult.”

But, Harmer points out, there’s plenty of interest in urban living – renters are coming in droves even though rents are up 15 percent to 20 percent. And, he says, the traffic through sales offices remains high, signaling plenty of interest even if people don’t feel safe to buy right away.

“Breeza and Bayside, and other more expensive projects, are selling easily to more experienced and sophisticated buyers,” Harmer says.

Some developers, including CityMark and Pinnacle, plan to build once they secure financing. CityMark has approval for Pier, a 228-unit project on the west side of Kettner between Fir and Date streets, that was scheduled to break ground in December.

“We’re hoping to break ground next year,” says Russ Haley, vice president of CityMark, which built Aperture nearby. “We think Pier is one of the best projects in one of the best locations and we’re going to be here to deliver on the promise.”

While the enormous Pinnacle Development project at 15th and J, with 617 condominium units and 20,000 square feet of commercial space, is on hold, the company is submitting plans for the adjacent 60,000-square-foot park on the west side of the megablock.

And Bosa may not be the only large condo developer to start construction on a tower in the next 12 months. Doug Austin is redesigning Library Tower to add some type of commercial space, and has said the 16th & G Gateway project, planned by Avion Development to include 525 condominiums, offices and additional retail space, has secured financing on the preliminary plans and should break ground in mid-2008.

The larger developers with product on the market today appear to be weathering the slow down well.

“Doug Wilson and Bosa planned for some carry,” Valone says. “They know they can’t replicate the last five years of sales but they also know their units will sell. That’s good for the owners and prospective buyers, because the developers will maintain the integrity of their projects.”

Derek Oct 5, 2007 2:40 AM

But most, in some form, are still coming, says Russ Valone of Marketpointe Realty Advisors. “To dig a hole might be a little optimistic right now,” Valone says. “But the demand is going to return.”


Let's hope. Thanks for posting that article! :)

mongoXZ Oct 5, 2007 2:50 AM

The good thing is that Downtown's potential has been realized and even in this downturn the developers are still sticking around and converting the projects into mixed-use which I believe is the best kind of pro-urbanity project.

In comparison, the downtowns in Dallas, Houston, Indianapolis, Atlanta, etc. are still trying to revitalize their central cores into true urban centers.

Derek Oct 5, 2007 2:59 AM

Houston isn't doing so well. :)

I'm just happy to see that a lot of the projects we thought were dead aren't so dead after all. :)

sandiegodweller Oct 5, 2007 4:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3093739)
Houston isn't doing so well. :)

I'm just happy to see that a lot of the projects we thought were dead aren't so dead after all. :)

This article is a little too rosy in my opinion. As someone who deals with these types of projects on a daily basis (along with the equity and debt sources who are taking back some of these sites), I can tell you that there is NO money available for new high rise projects in Southern California right now.

Revenues don't come close to the costs right now. You can't get anything underwritten.

Here is a link to a recent article in the OC Register regarding the situation up there:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/high-...-orange-county

SDCAL Oct 5, 2007 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3093911)
This article is a little too rosy in my opinion. As someone who deals with these types of projects on a daily basis (along with the equity and debt sources who are taking back some of these sites), I can tell you that there is NO money available for new high rise projects in Southern California right now.

Revenues don't come close to the costs right now. You can't get anything underwritten.

Here is a link to a recent article in the OC Register regarding the situation up there:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/high-...-orange-county

Since you are in the industry, let me ask your opinion on hotels : All the statistics I have read show San Diego as a hotel market is very hot right now and new hotels are profitable. Do you think these projects can be profitable by moving forward either as partial or full hotels?

keg92101 Oct 5, 2007 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3093911)
This article is a little too rosy in my opinion. As someone who deals with these types of projects on a daily basis (along with the equity and debt sources who are taking back some of these sites), I can tell you that there is NO money available for new high rise projects in Southern California right now.

Revenues don't come close to the costs right now. You can't get anything underwritten.

Here is a link to a recent article in the OC Register regarding the situation up there:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/high-...-orange-county

If there is NO money, how is the Hanover Company breaking ground on Strata right now?
I think you are right that unless you are a developer with very deep pockets (Bosa, Related Cos, JMI), you will not get funding. But lending today is just the same as lending yesterday. It's all predicated on risk. If the bank knows that they will be paid back (The developer has liquididty to repay), then they will lend the money.

keg92101 Oct 5, 2007 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3094626)
Since you are in the industry, let me ask your opinion on hotels : All the statistics I have read show San Diego as a hotel market is very hot right now and new hotels are profitable. Do you think these projects can be profitable by moving forward either as partial or full hotels?

The huge issue right now are the ridiculous asking price by landowners. Land brokers artificially inflated the land prices by valuing every parcel with a highest and best use as a 5 star luxury condo or hotel, without entitlement attached to it. They were asking for prices as if the land was already entitled as a Richard Meier designed condo tower. Now that land costs are coming down, perhaps.

SDCAL Oct 5, 2007 5:02 PM

I can't believe articles like the one posted above continue to dwell on the condo market downtown but they never talk about infrastructure and civic projects!

Any place that is distinct, iconic, and has qualities that set it apart as a desireable location will always find a market and bounce back from housing slumps. I think San Diego's bayfront downtown location makes it one of these places, kind of like SF but not as developed yet.

In my opinion, it is not a housing slump that will ruin downtown's future success - - it is a lack of infrastructure and civic spaces. We have hit a plateau where we have a sizeable downtown population and it simply can't grow any larger without addressing transporation and civic needs. Building highrise after highrise will only attract a certain amount of people until the infrastructure cuts off the development if it's a hassel to commute to and from and there is a shortage of civic ammenities.

I know there is a shortage of funds right now across the board - - private and public -- but I really think exploring more taxes would be worthwhile as SD pays far fewer than other major cities. Of course, the conservatives here are very anti-tax, so it's not likely to happen.

I'm just tired of hearing about the housing crisis every minute when we have what is in my opinion a more pressing problem that ISN'T going to bounce back - an infrastructure crisis

sandiegodweller Oct 5, 2007 6:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3094626)
Since you are in the industry, let me ask your opinion on hotels : All the statistics I have read show San Diego as a hotel market is very hot right now and new hotels are profitable. Do you think these projects can be profitable by moving forward either as partial or full hotels?

I don't deal with hotels but it would seem to me that downtown San Diego is approaching saturation.

Once the 2 new Marriots on 5th are completed along with the 1200 room Hilton and the 420 room Hard Rock, I think the market will have enough rooms for a while.

sandiegodweller Oct 5, 2007 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3094635)
If there is NO money, how is the Hanover Company breaking ground on Strata right now?
I think you are right that unless you are a developer with very deep pockets (Bosa, Related Cos, JMI), you will not get funding. But lending today is just the same as lending yesterday. It's all predicated on risk. If the bank knows that they will be paid back (The developer has liquididty to repay), then they will lend the money.

I understand that Hanover paid $22 million for the site. They are building luxury for rent apartments. I don't know who is providing the construction loan. It seems to me that you could probably find a lot of luxury condos for rent right now in downtown for $3 psf. I don't know who their target renter is. I guess we will see how that goes.

keg92101 Oct 5, 2007 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiegodweller (Post 3094872)
I understand that Hanover paid $22 million for the site. They are building luxury for rent apartments. I don't know who is providing the construction loan. It seems to me that you could probably find a lot of luxury condos for rent right now in downtown for $3 psf. I don't know who their target renter is. I guess we will see how that goes.

When they paid $22 million for the site, is that "as is"? Does it include soil remediation? You know like condo sellers, it is in land brokers best interest to have an appearance of "High Dollar", and a lot of times the seller will pay for a lot of site prepping. I'd be willing to bet that number includes money for demolition, abatement, and soil clean up, and the site is delivered to Hanover "clean". That site also already had entitlements in place.

keg92101 Oct 5, 2007 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3094654)
I can't believe articles like the one posted above continue to dwell on the condo market downtown but they never talk about infrastructure and civic projects!

Any place that is distinct, iconic, and has qualities that set it apart as a desireable location will always find a market and bounce back from housing slumps. I think San Diego's bayfront downtown location makes it one of these places, kind of like SF but not as developed yet.

In my opinion, it is not a housing slump that will ruin downtown's future success - - it is a lack of infrastructure and civic spaces. We have hit a plateau where we have a sizeable downtown population and it simply can't grow any larger without addressing transporation and civic needs. Building highrise after highrise will only attract a certain amount of people until the infrastructure cuts off the development if it's a hassel to commute to and from and there is a shortage of civic ammenities.

I know there is a shortage of funds right now across the board - - private and public -- but I really think exploring more taxes would be worthwhile as SD pays far fewer than other major cities. Of course, the conservatives here are very anti-tax, so it's not likely to happen.

I'm just tired of hearing about the housing crisis every minute when we have what is in my opinion a more pressing problem that ISN'T going to bounce back - an infrastructure crisis

Even if you can pass civic taxes, the city ends up siphoning them off and mismanaging the funds, like they did with the TOT tax. See article:

Hotel Self-Assessment Plan Clears First Hurdle


A plan that could raise as much as $30 million for tourism funding has apparently garnered enough support to get it rolling by January.

David Peckinpaugh, president and chief executive officer of the San Diego Convention & Visitors Bureau, said Oct. 3 that he’s learned that 54 percent of hotels within the city limits recently approved a measure that would impose a 2 percent assessment on nightly room rates.

According to state law, the creation of a marketing district with the authority to assess fees, such as the tourism marketing district plan floated more than two years ago, needs a vote of 50 percent of the businesses that would be affected. It must then have the blessing of a city or county governing body.
The approval process is the first step toward triggering the vote.

Under the proposal, ConVis would receive 50 percent of the revenue collected, while the San Diego North Convention & Visitors Bureau would receive 10 percent and the remainder would be split among several other organizations, including the Pacific Life Holiday Bowl, which are currently receiving hotel room tax funds.

Peckinpaugh says he expected that the City Council would review the matter in mid-October, after which the hotels would vote to accept or reject the plan. The hotels’ votes would be weighted on the basis of how much they contributed in room tax revenue, and only hotels with 70 or more rooms would be assessed.

Members of the San Diego Lodging Industry Association and the San Diego County Hotel-Motel Association are backers of the proposal.

Based on average occupancy and room rates at the city’s hotels, it’s anticipated that the revenue collection would be from $25 million to $30 million in the first year and could increase annually.

The city’s 10.5 percent hotel room tax collection, which amounted to $151 million in the fiscal year that ended in June, would stay in place, but speculation is that City Hall would eventually keep the lion’s share, if not all, of those tax funds.

For fiscal 2008, the city had projected that the room tax revenue collection will be $164 million. That tax was originally established in the 1960s to fund tourism marketing, but City Hall has siphoned more and more of it for its general fund needs through the years.

For fiscal 2008, which began in July, ConVis has a budget of $14.6 million, of which $8.8 million comes from the city in the form of a subsidy via the room tax collection. The remainder is derived from private sources, primarily dues.

Since fiscal 2004, the bureau has seen its total subsidy slashed by 37 percent.

Marina_Guy Oct 6, 2007 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3095006)
Even if you can pass civic taxes, the city ends up siphoning them off and mismanaging the funds, like they did with the TOT tax. See article:

Hotel Self-Assessment Plan Clears First Hurdle


A plan that could raise as much as $30 million for tourism funding has apparently garnered enough support to get it rolling by January.

David Peckinpaugh, president and chief executive officer of the San Diego Convention & Visitors Bureau, said Oct. 3 that he’s learned that 54 percent of hotels within the city limits recently approved a measure that would impose a 2 percent assessment on nightly room rates.

According to state law, the creation of a marketing district with the authority to assess fees, such as the tourism marketing district plan floated more than two years ago, needs a vote of 50 percent of the businesses that would be affected. It must then have the blessing of a city or county governing body.
The approval process is the first step toward triggering the vote.

Under the proposal, ConVis would receive 50 percent of the revenue collected, while the San Diego North Convention & Visitors Bureau would receive 10 percent and the remainder would be split among several other organizations, including the Pacific Life Holiday Bowl, which are currently receiving hotel room tax funds.

Peckinpaugh says he expected that the City Council would review the matter in mid-October, after which the hotels would vote to accept or reject the plan. The hotels’ votes would be weighted on the basis of how much they contributed in room tax revenue, and only hotels with 70 or more rooms would be assessed.

Members of the San Diego Lodging Industry Association and the San Diego County Hotel-Motel Association are backers of the proposal.

Based on average occupancy and room rates at the city’s hotels, it’s anticipated that the revenue collection would be from $25 million to $30 million in the first year and could increase annually.

The city’s 10.5 percent hotel room tax collection, which amounted to $151 million in the fiscal year that ended in June, would stay in place, but speculation is that City Hall would eventually keep the lion’s share, if not all, of those tax funds.

For fiscal 2008, the city had projected that the room tax revenue collection will be $164 million. That tax was originally established in the 1960s to fund tourism marketing, but City Hall has siphoned more and more of it for its general fund needs through the years.

For fiscal 2008, which began in July, ConVis has a budget of $14.6 million, of which $8.8 million comes from the city in the form of a subsidy via the room tax collection. The remainder is derived from private sources, primarily dues.

Since fiscal 2004, the bureau has seen its total subsidy slashed by 37 percent.

This to me is disgusting! Those are EASY tax dollars for San Diegan's to use for infrastructure (roads, sewers, iconic civic centers, etc)... And the visitor industry is taking advantage of the fact that TOT tax is so low in San Diego compared to our competitor cities that they can do this WITHOUT hurting occupany and use the funds to market themselves!

San Diegas should be ashamed at this grab bag. There have been efforts to raise the TOT in San Diego, but they have been defeated because big hotel interests have fought and won. Now look what they figured out how to do and without a vote of the people and they keep the money.

Someone do some math and figure out what 2% TOT is over 5 years... It think we are talking way over $150 million dollars. That is a lot of money. A lot of money for 'marketing'...

You know, San Diego should grow up and start collecting some taxes. Go to Phoenix and rent a car... The taxes are as much as the car... Lots of examples of this all over the country. And let's get responsible leadership to invest the taxes to make our city liveable again.

And, hey, maybe single family houses should pay for trash pick-up.

I also agree that the best ingrediants to increase values is quality of life. CCDC has a ton of property tax increment in its vault and I have yet to see any signficant public improvement come of it in the last couple of years. That harbor drive bridge keeps getting delayed, the 'quiet zone' is a joke, the North Embarcardero is still an asphault parking lot, and the new Central Library keep waiting for a donor.

Spend and invest it before the City Council figures out how to take it!!

keg92101 Oct 6, 2007 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marina_Guy (Post 3095548)
This to me is disgusting! Those are EASY tax dollars for San Diegan's to use for infrastructure (roads, sewers, iconic civic centers, etc)... And the visitor industry is taking advantage of the fact that TOT tax is so low in San Diego compared to our competitor cities that they can do this WITHOUT hurting occupany and use the funds to market themselves!

San Diegas should be ashamed at this grab bag. There have been efforts to raise the TOT in San Diego, but they have been defeated because big hotel interests have fought and won. Now look what they figured out how to do and without a vote of the people and they keep the money.

Someone do some math and figure out what 2% TOT is over 5 years... It think we are talking way over $150 million dollars. That is a lot of money. A lot of money for 'marketing'...

You know, San Diego should grow up and start collecting some taxes. Go to Phoenix and rent a car... The taxes are as much as the car... Lots of examples of this all over the country. And let's get responsible leadership to invest the taxes to make our city liveable again.

And, hey, maybe single family houses should pay for trash pick-up.

I also agree that the best ingrediants to increase values is quality of life. CCDC has a ton of property tax increment in its vault and I have yet to see any signficant public improvement come of it in the last couple of years. That harbor drive bridge keeps getting delayed, the 'quiet zone' is a joke, the North Embarcardero is still an asphault parking lot, and the new Central Library keep waiting for a donor.

Spend and invest it before the City Council figures out how to take it!!

What are you talking about??? The poroblem is that the TOT is SUPOSED to go back into tourism and it doesn't. The city keeps it for other purposes (overhead for Mike Aguirre's press conferences). The reason why the hotel industry did not want to raise TOT tax is that the city would spend it on things other than tourism. What the hotels have done is just like what we have in downtown. Create an assesment district to fund marketting for themselves. NO PROBLEM HERE. Its the only way you can actually get things done without the city wasting it away.

HurricaneHugo Oct 7, 2007 8:10 AM

Wtf Is Tot??!!

keg92101 Oct 7, 2007 2:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo (Post 3097330)
Wtf Is Tot??!!

Transient Occupancy Tax (Hotel Tax)

sandiegodweller Oct 7, 2007 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo (Post 3097330)
Wtf Is Tot??!!

Check your hotel bill the next time you visit a big city. Most cities have substantial hotel taxes. San Francisco is about 14%.

Derek Oct 7, 2007 11:26 PM

Well that was a nice treat! :tup:

Go Bolts!

HurricaneHugo Oct 8, 2007 6:20 AM

word

now if only the padres were in the rockies place...:(

keg92101 Oct 10, 2007 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by visionary (Post 3081432)
Sombody said they would love to see a market at TR Produce...I said his wishes will soon be a reality...can't elaborate further at this time...but trust!!!

As long as its not going to be a Bristol Farms. There is one that is right by where I live in LA during the week, and they make Whole Foods prices "discount". That place is a rip off. A bowl of cut pineaples there is $11!!! The same bowl at Trader Joes is only $4.

Knowing our luck, it will probably be some ridiculously expensive market that will force everyone that lives there to get in their cars and drive to Trader Joes.


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