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Marty_Mcfly Jul 18, 2018 1:26 PM

We're having a pissing contest over airports? Really?

Guys. Get out and socialize more. Sheesh.

J81 Jul 18, 2018 2:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8254459)
none. YOW usually sees more YYZ diversions than YUL, especially in the evening hours.



How many international flights use remote stands at YVR per day? 2? Clearly not as badly needed as at YUL. That's probably why YVR is only building 4 new gates on pier D.

I watched an Azores A340 and a KLM 747 divert there as there were thunderstorms over YYZ for an extended period of time.

DrNest Jul 19, 2018 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8254558)
I watched an Azores A340 and a KLM 747 divert there as there were thunderstorms over YYZ for an extended period of time.

I had the pleasure a few years ago of being in the jump seat in the cockpit of a KLM 747 landing at CYYZ. I asked about alternates for diversion. Their first choice is CYHM unless it's due weather and Hamilton is also affected. Then CYUL, KORD and KJFK are their next choices due runway lengths and they have handling agents already there. Only in a Mayday situation would they elect to divert to CYOW.

zahav Jul 19, 2018 5:58 AM

noflyone is just adamant that anything Montreal related or based is the best, and anywhere else is just second fiddle. YVR has higher gate utilization all through the day than YUL. You can look morning, afternoon, and night and gates are used. And don't forget, YTD international growth at YVR is still highee than YUL. But it's true, who cares, I've said time and time again that the competition thing is stupid and all airports are doing really well right now. But trying to imply that YVR adding 4 gates is somehow showing that it's growth is less impressive than YUL is just ridiculous

thenoflyzone Jul 19, 2018 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8254558)
I watched an Azores A340 and a KLM 747 divert there as there were thunderstorms over YYZ for an extended period of time.

You have your dates mixed up. My count was on July 13. No thunderstorms in YYZ that day. The KL 747 and Azores A340 landed at YYZ on schedule that day.

You're talking about July 16.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/s4321

thenoflyzone Jul 19, 2018 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8255396)
I had the pleasure a few years ago of being in the jump seat in the cockpit of a KLM 747 landing at CYYZ. I asked about alternates for diversion. Their first choice is CYHM unless it's due weather and Hamilton is also affected. Then CYUL, KORD and KJFK are their next choices due runway lengths and they have handling agents already there. Only in a Mayday situation would they elect to divert to CYOW.

That's assuming YUL accepts the flights. (Obviously if it's an emergency, it's a different story.)

Usually the airlines' dispatch will coordinate with the alternate airport to make sure they are capable of accepting the diversion.

During the evening rush hour, YUL cannot accept too many diversions. Meaning, if YHM is affected by the same weather as YYZ, YOW becomes the go to airport for diversions from YYZ.

You dont need to take my word for it. But considering I work the traffic at several airports (including YOW and YUL) on a regular basis, you can take my word for it this time...:cheers:

A pilot's filed alternate and where he might actually end up after talking with dispatch are 2 different things.

thenoflyzone Jul 19, 2018 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8222450)
DL cut HKG but will start MSP-ICN instead. JV with KE in full swing. This is CX's chance at SEA.

Still crazy to see DL exit HKG entirely.

Well, it didn't take long for CX to announce SEA. Still cant believe a giant like DL exited HKG. Just goes to show the power of alliances and joint ventures.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300683346.html

FlyYOW Jul 19, 2018 2:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8255396)
I had the pleasure a few years ago of being in the jump seat in the cockpit of a KLM 747 landing at CYYZ. I asked about alternates for diversion. Their first choice is CYHM unless it's due weather and Hamilton is also affected. Then CYUL, KORD and KJFK are their next choices due runway lengths and they have handling agents already there. Only in a Mayday situation would they elect to divert to CYOW.

I've seen KL divert to YOW on numerous occasions in recent years and on none of those occasions was it a mayday situation. Runway length is also a non issue at YOW.

thenoflyzone Jul 19, 2018 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8255612)
I've seen KL divert to YOW on numerous occasions in recent years and on none of those occasions was it a mayday situation. Runway length is also a non issue at YOW.

Throughout the years, i've seen them all at YOW. AF, KL, BA, LH, EK, CX etc

plenty of pics on airliners also...

KLM

http://www.airliners.net/photo/KLM-R...YfZn08wA%3D%3D

British Airways

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Briti...YfZn08wA%3D%3D

Aerosvit

http://www.airliners.net/photo/AeroS...YfZn08wA%3D%3D

FlyYOW Jul 19, 2018 5:25 PM

Yup. The list is endless and I've seen them all in my countless hours spent there during my pre-marriage, pre-parenthood days. I know those photographers well; sadly Mr. Davies passed away a few years ago.

The YOW spotting "handbook" says you monitor the weather at YYZ, and when it hits, you head to YOW with your camera.

Last July 31 (the Air Transat debacle) was probably the best single day diversion event ever here.

DrNest Jul 19, 2018 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8255612)
I've seen KL divert to YOW on numerous occasions in recent years and on none of those occasions was it a mayday situation. Runway length is also a non issue at YOW.

Was it the 747? I'm just relaying what the captain told me. My experience was 6-7 years ago, so policy may have changed since then.

And to clarify my earlier comment, it was a combination of runway length AND handling agents for their choice of alternates.

DrNest Jul 19, 2018 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8255507)
That's assuming YUL accepts the flights. (Obviously if it's an emergency, it's a different story.)

Usually the airlines' dispatch will coordinate with the alternate airport to make sure they are capable of accepting the diversion.

During the evening rush hour, YUL cannot accept too many diversions. Meaning, if YHM is affected by the same weather as YYZ, YOW becomes the go to airport for diversions from YYZ.

You dont need to take my word for it. But considering I work the traffic at several airports (including YOW and YUL) on a regular basis, you can take my word for it this time...:cheers:

A pilot's filed alternate and where he might actually end up after talking with dispatch are 2 different things.

I've seen Pearson diversions go to KBUF, KDTW, CYXU, CYQG as well as CYOW and CYUL, amongst many other places. I don't have stats to hand, but from memory I would say a lot more Mediums would divert to CYOW, and Heavies to CYUL.
You don't need to take my word for it, but considering I'm a controller at Pearson, you can take my word for it. :cheers:

FlyYOW Jul 19, 2018 6:23 PM

It's all good; I was just offering a local perspective and I've spent A LOT of time at YOW over the years.

To your question, I've seen both KL 744 and 772 at YOW. I've seen lots of other 744s over the years as well, but they're a dying breed nowadays. These days the EK A380 generates the most buzz when it diverts.

Pilots typically have discretion over this type of ops decision. Company routes (flight plans) are usually pre-programmed with alternates and loaded into the aircraft's FMS. From there, usually it's at the pilot's discretion which he/she chooses. Maybe this particular pilot had a personal preference based on familiarity, experience. I can't say I'm familiar with KL ops/policy, but I have designed and developed FMS in my career so I'm intimately familiar with how that works, and how airlines define and store company routes.

LeftCoaster Jul 19, 2018 7:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly (Post 8254517)
We're having a pissing contest over airports? Really?

Guys. Get out and socialize more. Sheesh.

Only one person is. He managed to take a picture of YVR being busy and needing a gate expansion and turned it into a soap box to brag about how busy YUL is.

Apparently we shouldn't post pics of YVR because it's just not as busy as the aviation powerhouse that is YUL :rolleyes:

ghYHZ Jul 20, 2018 9:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8255815)
It's all good; I was just offering a local perspective and I've spent A LOT of time at YOW over the years.

To your question, I've seen both KL 744 and 772 at YOW. I've seen lots of other 744s over the years as well...........

Memories of when YOW had scheduled KL service in the ‘80s and 90s: Flights operated Amsterdam-Halifax-Ottawa on a ‘747. Martinair eventually took over with a ‘767.

bikegypsy Jul 20, 2018 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8255396)
I had the pleasure a few years ago of being in the jump seat in the cockpit of a KLM 747 landing at CYYZ. I asked about alternates for diversion. Their first choice is CYHM unless it's due weather and Hamilton is also affected. Then CYUL, KORD and KJFK are their next choices due runway lengths and they have handling agents already there. Only in a Mayday situation would they elect to divert to CYOW.

YOW sees multiple weather YYZ diversions almost every month and the airport sees 747s and Antonovs regularly. KLM also used to service YOW with a 747.

DrNest Jul 20, 2018 1:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster (Post 8255921)
Only one person is. He managed to take a picture of YVR being busy and needing a gate expansion and turned it into a soap box to brag about how busy YUL is.

Apparently we shouldn't post pics of YVR because it's just not as busy as the aviation powerhouse that is YUL :rolleyes:

:tup:

Total aircraft movements per month:
1. CYYZ:
Jan 2018 - 37,736
Feb 2018 - 34,840
Mar 2018 - 40,807
Apr 2018 - 38,117

2. CYVR:
Jan 2018 - 25,455
Feb 2018 - 23,684
Mar 2018 - 27,226
Apr 2018 - 26,536

3. CYUL:
Jan 2018 - 18,230
Feb 2018 - 17,569
Mar 2018 - 20,417
Apr 2018 - 19,187

4. CYYC:
Jan 2018 - 19,261
Feb 2018 - 17,213
Mar 2018 - 19,276
Apr 2018 - 18,462

Stats taken from https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=2310000201

Clearly CYUL is on a par with CYYC, both roughly half the number of movements of CYYZ. CYVR is comfortably in second place.

DrNest Jul 20, 2018 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikegypsy (Post 8256526)
YOW sees multiple weather YYZ diversions almost every month and the airport sees 747s and Antonovs regularly. KLM also used to service YOW with a 747.

Once again, I am relaying the information giving to me by a KLM 747 captain as I was riding in the cockpit coming into land at Pearson. I did not state that there would never be diversions of aircraft scheduled into CYYZ to CYOW.

J81 Jul 20, 2018 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8255503)
You have your dates mixed up. My count was on July 13. No thunderstorms in YYZ that day. The KL 747 and Azores A340 landed at YYZ on schedule that day.

You're talking about July 16.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/s4321

Correct. However my main point was that aircraft do divert to YUL on a regular basis when the weather in YYZ is bad. I have also noticed that Lufthansa seems to prefer Detroit for YYZ diversions.

FlyYOW Jul 20, 2018 3:29 PM

Hey DrNest, just curious, what's your area of control at YYZ? Do you work ATC tower or terminal area?


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