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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

osmo Apr 18, 2018 4:58 PM

NBA and Raptors fans are very young. These young fans will show up in social media metrics more-so than they would in traditional (dated) television numbers. In this day and age, I would rather have sky-high social media metrics versus television ratings. Old relics like the NFL can hold on dear to television numbers but its the NBA with its young fans and social media following that has the more profitable future.

craneSpotter Apr 18, 2018 5:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osmo (Post 8159180)
NBA and Raptors fans are very young. These young fans will show up in social media metrics more-so than they would in traditional (dated) television numbers. In this day and age, I would rather have sky-high social media metrics versus television ratings. Old relics like the NFL can hold on dear to television numbers but its the NBA with its young fans and social media following that has the more profitable future.

The only thing working against basketball is that so many people find it boring.

Acajack Apr 18, 2018 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 8159226)
The only thing working against basketball is that so many people find it boring.

I am not a basketball fan but any sport will have people who find it boring.

Anyone who follows pro sports in North America knows the NBA is impressively ascendant right now but the enthusiasm and cheerleading for its growth on SSP Canada of all places leads me to wonder if some guys here don't have millions of stock options in the league...

elly63 Apr 18, 2018 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8159231)
but the enthusiasm and cheerleading for its growth on SSP Canada of all places leads me to wonder if some guys here don't have millions of stock options in the league...

I've noticed that, lol, and conversely the same guys doing the cheerleading are at other topics insidiously trolling hoping if something else fails it will leave the gates wide open. Don't think it works that way. :)

elly63 Apr 18, 2018 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8159231)
I am not a basketball fan but any sport will have people who find it boring.

I have zero interest in the Raps or the present NBA but lately have been watching OpenCourt where they talk with some oldtimers. I'm finding that interesting.

Heard Bill Walton give a great compliment to Steve Nash years ago, said he was the closet thing to Pistol Pete. Also heard Maravich say he had three offers back when he was starting his pro career, one from the ABA, one from the NBA, and one to be the first white guy to play for the Harlem Globetrotters (aside from Abe Saperstein)

Acajack Apr 18, 2018 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8159435)
I've noticed that, lol, and conversely the same guys doing the cheerleading are at other topics insidiously trolling hoping if something else fails it will leave the gates wide open. Don't think it works that way. :)

I honestly wonder what is to be gained by all of this.

So if we elevate the Raptors to a higher level and Argo-fy the Leafs to the second-rung status that NHL teams have in all but two or three cities in the U.S., and maybe we kill off the CFL (or at least the Argos)... and somehow this will make us more "big time"?

elly63 Apr 18, 2018 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8159581)
So if we elevate the Raptors to a higher level and Argo-fy the Leafs to the second-rung status that NHL teams have in all but two or three cities in the U.S., and maybe we kill off the CFL (or at least the Argos)... and somehow this will make us more "big time"?

Apparently, the amount of effort that has gone into this says the answer is an unequivocal, yes.

Berklon Apr 18, 2018 10:48 PM

I think some people need to take off their tin-foil hats and step away from their computers.

elly63 Apr 18, 2018 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8159723)
I think some people need to take off their tin-foil hats and step away from their computers.

Speaking of which

wave46 Apr 18, 2018 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8159581)
I honestly wonder what is to be gained by all of this.

So if we elevate the Raptors to a higher level and Argo-fy the Leafs to the second-rung status that NHL teams have in all but two or three cities in the U.S., and maybe we kill off the CFL (or at least the Argos)... and somehow this will make us more "big time"?

What is to be gained? Um, money. MLSE would be quite happy to have 2 top tier sports franchises.

What is to be gained from a 'Canadian' perspective? The blurry line between 'American' and 'Canadian' (fine, Anglo-Canadian) will blur a little more? What can I say? Toronto aspires to be 'world-class'. It seems to be following the New York model quite nicely. If you think that's a good thing or not is a subjective matter.

GlassCity Apr 19, 2018 2:57 AM

I'm a big Raptors fan, and I've watched as many games as I could since I started watching sometime in 2011, 2012 when they were at the bottom of the league and Andrea Bargnani was leading the team. I'm not a great case study for an immigrant since I was 5 when I came to Canada, but I'll say that I became a fan by getting on the basketball team in high school, getting into it and cheering for what seemed like the "natural" team to follow.

I've watched hockey since I was 8 however, because I remember distinctly how all the boys in grade 3 watched and talked about it and I wanted to fit in. So I'll kind of echo Acajack's comments. I'd really love for basketball to do well in Canada, mostly for selfish reasons: I want to be able to actually talk to people about basketball, and I want Vancouver to get an NBA team. But it is disappointing to see an all-white crowd at the Leafs outdoor party. I won't go so far as to say that hockey's gonna be displaced by basketball, or god forbid soccer, any time soon, but it's not a good sign for hockey (or basketball for that matter) to have such demographically distinct fan bases.

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8159747)
What is to be gained? Um, money. MLSE would be quite happy to have 2 top tier sports franchises.

What is to be gained from a 'Canadian' perspective? The blurry line between 'American' and 'Canadian' (fine, Anglo-Canadian) will blur a little more? What can I say? Toronto aspires to be 'world-class'. It seems to be following the New York model quite nicely. If you think that's a good thing or not is a subjective matter.

Just as long as we're clear about what's really going on and aren't playing the game of denial.

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 3:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity (Post 8159950)
I'm a big Raptors fan, and I've watched as many games as I could since I started watching sometime in 2011, 2012 when they were at the bottom of the league and Andrea Bargnani was leading the team. I'm not a great case study for an immigrant since I was 5 when I came to Canada, but I'll say that I became a fan by getting on the basketball team in high school, getting into it and cheering for what seemed like the "natural" team to follow.

I've watched hockey since I was 8 however, because I remember distinctly how all the boys in grade 3 watched and talked about it and I wanted to fit in. So I'll kind of echo Acajack's comments. I'd really love for basketball to do well in Canada, mostly for selfish reasons: I want to be able to actually talk to people about basketball, and I want Vancouver to get an NBA team. But it is disappointing to see an all-white crowd at the Leafs outdoor party. I won't go so far as to say that hockey's gonna be displaced by basketball, or god forbid soccer, any time soon, but it's not a good sign for hockey (or basketball for that matter) to have such demographically distinct fan bases.

Good points, but it's really hard not to see the overall situation as a failing of some kind. Even if some people are too busy paying attention to March Madness or the AFC wild card game to give a damn.

In a country with precious little that is culturally iconic (if we're honest), hockey is one of the rare things that has stood out as powerful national symbol for over 100 years. We invented the game. It's arguably the sport that Canadians are best at internationally. Recognition of this sport as something that is classically Canadians goes far beyond our borders - people around the world identify Canada with hockey.

Now we have some degree of evidence that a good chunk of the younger generation that's coming of age has little time for this sport. Whereas not long ago at all, previous generations (including immigrants of various origins I can attest personally) adopted the game as their own.

And we're being told that all of this is without consequence.

So in terms of cultural convergence points that are truly Canadian, we basically have no TV, no movies, no folk traditions, very little in terms of food, etc.

And at some point in the future... maybe no hockey?

rousseau Apr 19, 2018 4:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8159723)
I think some people need to take off their tin-foil hats and step away from their computers.

No kidding. Do you think there's a small chance that people, uh, just really like basketball?

Hockey's inherent structural problem is that what you see on TV or from the stands is not easily replicated without expensive equipment and ice time. You can make do with a facsimile like ball hockey, and I had lots of fun playing that as a kid, but there's not so much playing on frozen rivers or backyard rinks anymore. It's really hard as a kid to dive into hockey really intensively because the opportunities for that are so fleeting.

The price of admission, both literally and figuratively, is really high, and you don't get all that much for the money. Plus parental involvement is so intensive.

Whereas with basketball and football/soccer you can play as much as you want, all day long. When I was a hockey player I had two games and one practice a week combined with one or two impromptu ball hockey games. But just in the winter, because we didn't play ball hockey in the summer.

When I switched to basketball I played every day of the year, virtually as much as I wanted. We'd spend hours on the court during summer vacation. Throughout the school year we played in the gym between classes and at lunchtime and after school, never mind during the actual season when we were playing games and practicing.

How can you make hockey more appealing to the mushy middle cohort of kids wavering in their choice of sports? I think you'd need to make it more accessible. Less forbidding, financially and otherwise. Maybe build lots more rinks run like roller rinks where you can go in any time you want to skate for really cheap. Have several mini-rinks in the complex with goals set up for pickup games. Have skates and sticks available for kids who don't have their own.

Just some ideas...

GlassCity Apr 19, 2018 6:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8159971)
Good points, but it's really hard not to see the overall situation as a failing of some kind. Even if some people are too busy paying attention to March Madness or the AFC wild card game to give a damn.

In a country with precious little that is culturally iconic (if we're honest), hockey is one of the rare things that has stood out as powerful national symbol for over 100 years. We invented the game. It's arguably the sport that Canadians are best at internationally. Recognition of this sport as something that is classically Canadians goes far beyond our borders - people around the world identify Canada with hockey.

Now we have some degree of evidence that a good chunk of the younger generation that's coming of age has little time for this sport. Whereas not long ago at all, previous generations (including immigrants of various origins I can attest personally) adopted the game as their own.

And we're being told that all of this is without consequence.

So in terms of cultural convergence points that are truly Canadian, we basically have no TV, no movies, no folk traditions, very little in terms of food, etc.

And at some point in the future... maybe no hockey?

You use the word "but" here but I agreed entirely with your previous post and with this one as well. I do think it's a failing. And immigrants aside, the frequency with which I hear Canadian-born people exclaim that "they don't even like hockey" as something they're proud of breaks my heart a little. I've heard similar things, like "I don't say eh" too. I don't understand this apparent need to disassociate one's self from Canada and rush towards some cosmopolitan (read: American) genericism. I do get that hockey's a tough, tough sport to actually participate in, but the level of indifference and occasional giddiness of losing these things still surprises me.

I understand other sports growing with immigrant populations rising and that's great and all, but if hockey fell even to the level of popularity in the US I think it'd be a tragedy. Especially considering it's really our only opportunity at a major league consisting of this many Canadian teams. I don't care how big the NBA gets in Canada, we're never getting teams outside Toronto or Vancouver.

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rousseau (Post 8160024)
No kidding. Do you think there's a small chance that people, uh, just really like basketball?

..

I realize you're a long-time basketball fan but you're also a keen observer of society, people, Canada, etc.

So surely you know that for a lot of people, there is more to this than simply really liking basketball.

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity (Post 8160073)
You use the word "but" here but I agreed entirely with your previous post and with this one as well. I do think it's a failing. And immigrants aside, the frequency with which I hear Canadian-born people exclaim that "they don't even like hockey" as something they're proud of breaks my heart a little. I've heard similar things, like "I don't say eh" too. I don't understand this apparent need to disassociate one's self from Canada and rush towards some cosmopolitan (read: American) genericism. I do get that hockey's a tough, tough sport to actually participate in, but the level of indifference and occasional giddiness of losing these things still surprises me.

.

Gotcha. The highlighted portions are particularly true.

What's ironic is that most of these people are still proud Canadians. Or at least consider themselves as such. They don't really envy or admire the U.S. as a country or society. They just really, really like their "stuff" and "trappings".

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity (Post 8160073)
I understand other sports growing with immigrant populations rising and that's great and all, but if hockey fell even to the level of popularity in the US I think it'd be a tragedy. Especially considering it's really our only opportunity at a major league consisting of this many Canadian teams. I don't care how big the NBA gets in Canada, we're never getting teams outside Toronto or Vancouver.

I also find it's an illusion to think that somehow this will give Canada more "cred" because basketball (or, taking a page from another debate, the NFL) is always gonna be bigger than something that's uniquely Canadian.

Nobody who is looking for the "ultimate authentic basketball experience" is going to come to Toronto or anywhere in Canada for that. No more than anyone comes here as a baseball pilgrimage. Unless they are a fan of a specific player who happens to be playing for the Jays or Raptors at the moment.

Our only hope to stand out in terms of sports was and still is ice hockey. (Well, maybe the CFL too if it were to become a quirky curiosity like Aussie rules football did at one point - but so far that has not happened. It likely never will as the game is too close to the American variant.)

And speaking of Aussie rules, one of the reasons I first went to Australia was that I had become a fan of the game by watching it on TSN. I timed my trip for the playoffs down there and saw a whole bunch of games. Would I have gone to Australia with attending soccer or basketball games top of mind? Probably not, even though they have pro leagues for both of those. Probably not even rugby - even though they're quite good at it and it's pretty big there.

mistercorporate Apr 19, 2018 11:52 AM

This has nothing to do with immigrants or wannabeism in particular cities. Immigrants are typically just more "globalized" than the average Canadian-born. Young Canadians are equally independent with their tastes, particularly in major cities. It's hard to be globalised if you're in the countryside where most radio stations are blasting oldies or 80s music or if you live in a province which strictly limits exposure to globalizing influences.

Have you guys ever watched TV in other countries? 5 out of the 7 most popular Polish TV stations basically broadcast American/British productions (often filmed in Canada) with Polish dubbing or subtitles. Poland is hardly among the most globalised of European countries. In Iceland, there is a wide recognition that English has superseded their ancient Icelandic language as the preferred medium of media absorption for Icelandic youth. In Asia, children from some of the most obscure countries are tuned into and with-it when it comes to American pop culture and nuances. The globalised and attractive elements of Americana that is.

This is why North American music, films and fashion are gaining popularity worldwide as well as basketball and cuisine. Likewise, British soccer, Thai cuisine, Japanese anime and video games consoles and European fast fashion are increasingly popular here. With globalization, the most attractive trends from around the world will gain traction with the largest media hubs and globalized cities.

North American football is just not appealing to most of the world and Hockey is only popular in a handful of cold Northern countries such as Canada,. It's just not that attractive or relatable to most of the world, as is the case with MLB. Supply and demand is rarely wrong in determining the attractiveness of various goods and concepts. If we want to roll back this dynamic and go back to dressing like hosers, grow out our mullets, eating dried bison and playing lacrosse, while lugging our equipment in our Oldsmobiles and watching crappy 1980's tv programming.

Acajack Apr 19, 2018 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 8160143)
This has nothing to do with immigrants or wannabeism in particular cities. Immigrants are typically just more "globalized" than the average Canadian-born. (...)

North American football is just not appealing to most of the world and Hockey is only popular in a handful of cold Northern countries such as Canada,. It's just not that attractive or relatable to most of the world, as is the case with MLB. .

But are kids in other diverse high-immigration globalized countries like the U.S. and Australia writing off the locally unique sports like MLB, NFL, Aussie rules? I think you'll find that while soccer and basketball are popular and growing there, the unique national sports still retain their popularity.


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