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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

Acajack Jan 23, 2019 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8445836)
Do you think there's been no money put into it because it has no eyeballs to begin with? It comes down to the Universities packing arenas and stadiums first - nobody is going to show a product with venues that are 90% empty. There needs to be demand in the local area before a national broadcaster even considers picking it up.

TheScore attempted to make a focus of USports football and it went nowhere. It's a chicken-and-egg scenario. It takes interest to develop a sport but it takes development in a sport to generate interest.


It's not an either/or situation like you're painting. Just because someone watches the NFL doesn't automatically make them a CFL-hater, and just because someone watches NCAA doesn't automatically making them a USports-hater. You're attributing feelings to people and making assumptions about other users, IMO. For the likes of TSN/SN it's easier for them to pick up broadcasts from the US than it is to send production teams to places in Canada. If people were clamouring for USports on TV I assume they'd be applying pressure on them to show them on TV.

If USports had any broad appeal you can bet that TSN/SN would be all over it, and you would bet they would be filling stands. Neither is happening.

This is only partly true. The CHL is the most attended sports league in Canada by a longshot, and how much coverage do they get in the national media? Do they even post CHL scores on the ticker on TSN SportsCentre? I don't believe so. And they never get a mention during the sportscast unless it's the Memorial Cup. I may be mistaken but even the Memorial Cup national media coverage seems to have slipped a bit in recent years.

On a broader level, we all like to see ourselves as masters of our own domain in terms of our cultural preferences (including sports) but the truth there is a little bit or a lot of "lemming" in all of us.

What we're interested in is hugely related to conditioning, marketing and peer pressure.

Your average kid in Corner Brook, Nfld. who's never played basketball except in phys ed class doesn't have an intergenerational family history with NCAA March Madness. It's clearly been *sold* to him and millions of other Canadians as a sports property they should absolutely be paying attention to.

JHikka Jan 23, 2019 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8446478)
This is only partly true. The CHL is the most attended sports league in Canada by a longshot, and how much coverage do they get in the national media? Do they even post CHL scores on the ticker on TSN SportsCentre? I don't believe so.

They do, occasionally, IIRC. SN does obviously because they have CHL rights. What does TSN gain by promoting a lower-level product owned and broadcast by SN, outside of maybe contributing to their own NHL/World Juniors coverage?

They might be the most attended but only because there's 50+ teams of varying size split amongst three leagues. All other leagues are operating below ten Canadian teams. Obviously this is a caveat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8446478)
And they never get a mention during the sportscast unless it's the Memorial Cup. I may be mistaken but even the Memorial Cup national media coverage seems to have slipped a bit in recent years.

SN shows occasional CHL highlights, not the mention the games on Saturdays that they broadcast. As a Francophile you should also be aware of the Q's TV coverage in Quebec.

If you aren't paying full attention the CHL Top Prospects game is on SN tonight, broadcasting from Red Deer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8446478)
Your average kid in Corner Brook, Nfld. who's never played basketball except in phys ed class doesn't have an intergenerational family history with NCAA March Madness. It's clearly been *sold* to him and millions of other Canadians as a sports property they should absolutely be paying attention to.

That's the business of sport in a nutshell, though. He's only even aware of March Madness because of media forces discussing it or showing it. You can make this argument pro or con just about anything if you wanted to, but at the end of the day something online/TSN sold him March Madness, just like how I learned cricket through watching a week's worth of IPL when I was sick via (new, at the time) SportsnetWorld. :shrug: I can watch just about any sport imaginable through the internet if I want to and that's something that SN/TSN can't control and something that people forty years ago couldn't do.

I agree that the CHL should have way more coverage than it otherwise gets in Canada but if you're looking for SN/TSN to be the leaders in developing sports in Canada you're looking in the wrong direction. Their motives are strictly financial, and there's more to be made off of NCAA/NFL/whatever. This isn't just a TV avenue like it was forty years ago - SN/TSN can't control trends on Twitter or Instagram or Snapchat but they can control how their viewers view them through a Canadian/broadcasting lens. They show what they think is popular to maximize viewership. That's it. If that means it's football then it's football, if that means it's Mexican bull dancing then it's that. If they want to stay relevant then eventually it'll be eSports or whatever other trend arrives in the next decade.

elly63 Jan 23, 2019 8:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8446478)
This is only partly true. The CHL is the most attended sports league in Canada by a longshot, and how much coverage do they get in the national media? Do they even post CHL scores on the ticker on TSN SportsCentre? I don't believe so. And they never get a mention during the sportscast unless it's the Memorial Cup. I may be mistaken but even the Memorial Cup national media coverage seems to have slipped a bit in recent years.

On a broader level, we all like to see ourselves as masters of our own domain in terms of our cultural preferences (including sports) but the truth there is a little bit or a lot of "lemming" in all of us.

What we're interested in is hugely related to conditioning, marketing and peer pressure.

Your average kid in Corner Brook, Nfld. who's never played basketball except in phys ed class doesn't have an intergenerational family history with NCAA March Madness. It's clearly been *sold* to him and millions of other Canadians as a sports property they should absolutely be paying attention to.

Couldn't have been said better.

elly63 Jan 23, 2019 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8446241)
The Carleton Ravens consistently hold their own against the Syracuse Orange, for example. I believe they've even beaten them on occasion.

This is not to say that Carleton would make the NCAA Final Four, but they're not at the level of a couple of teenagers from the hood playing 21 on an asphalt court, which is how Canadian USport teams are often portrayed and treated.

Remember this from four years ago: "in an exhibition game last August, the Carleton Ravens lost in overtime to the now number one ranked US college team Syracuse (who ironically have a Canadian youth NT freshman starting for them). In that same tournament the Ravens beat perennial MM team Wisconsin

That was the same Wisconsin team that lost by one point in the MM semi final. And for our folks still living the myth both NCAA teams played their best players.

Interesting to see that Wisconsin missed the NCAA final by one point and articles are popping up with them crediting the whippin' they got from Carleton as a change for their season.

elly63 Jan 23, 2019 8:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8446709)
I can watch just about any sport imaginable through the internet if I want to and that's something that SN/TSN can't control and something that people forty years ago couldn't do.

Now that's an interesting point and one I agree with. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

isaidso Jan 23, 2019 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8446180)
Yes, it's been proven.

I mean in the sense where Canadians don't have to leave Canada if they want a shot at the NBA. It's still unheard of to go from U Sports to the NBA. U Sports would need to match the NCAA in talent, coaching, and visibility by NBA scouts for that to happen. It's a very tall order.

elly63 Jan 24, 2019 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8446988)
I mean in the sense where Canadians don't have to leave Canada if they want a shot at the NBA. It's still unheard of to go from U Sports to the NBA. U Sports would need to match the NCAA in talent, coaching, and visibility by NBA scouts for that to happen. It's a very tall order.

I don't think ten years ago people would have thought players could go from USports to the NFL but every year someone seems to be doing it.

As for basketball...

Canadian coach turning heads in NBA circles

His aspirations in the game are large, stating that his two goals are to coach in the NBA, and for Canada at the Olympics. “Even when I’m working with the junior national team, I get a sense of pride when I pull that maple leaf on my chest. It means as much to me— if not more— than anything I’m doing [at Summer League]. In fact everything I’m doing here I’m trying to represent Canada.”

“Success breeds success,” Morrison says. “Canada has great coaches—not just great players. As the players have success people down south will start to wonder who are training these guys. As guys like me have success hopefully I can help inspire the guys coming up behind me. If we keep knocking on the door we can break it down together”.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8446709)

SN shows occasional CHL highlights, not the mention the games on Saturdays that they broadcast. As a Francophile you should also be aware of the Q's TV coverage in Quebec.
.

I am not a francophile, I am a francophone :) but sure.

Yes, the Q in spite of being the weakest of the three CHL leagues gets the best media coverage of all three. Especially from RDS which has a dedicated reporter Stéphane Leroux who is on Sports30 (equivalent to SportsCentre) regularly with highlights and scores, and also appears on magazine-type shows alongside guys who talk Habs and the NHL.

JHikka Jan 24, 2019 1:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447443)
I am not a francophile, I am a francophone :) but sure.

Eh, I wasn't 100% sure whether you were or not and wasn't going to be presumptive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447443)
Yes, the Q in spite of being the weakest of the three CHL leagues gets the best media coverage of all three. Especially from RDS which has a dedicated reporter Stéphane Leroux who is on Sports30 (equivalent to SportsCentre) regularly with highlights and scores, and also appears on magazine-type shows alongside guys who talk Habs and the NHL.

RDS also has a weekly show on the Quebec Midget AAA league IIRC.

-------------

In CPL news:

Peter Schaad @PeteSchaad
I’ve heard rumblings from a few avenues that the CPL may be on the verge of a rather significant broadcast/media rights deal. If true, what a fantastic achievement for the League & CSB leadership. The chain reaction from that kind of deal would be immense. #CanPL

Schaad covers the Whitecaps for TSN so there's likely something to it. I've been under the assumption that Sportsnet will be going after the CPL after losing EPL and for featuring CPL in articles lately so we'll see. TSN still has rights to the Canadian MLS teams so running those and CPL could work, I suppose, but the rights make more sense with Sportsnet.

MonctonRad Jan 24, 2019 1:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447443)
Yes, the Q in spite of being the weakest of the three CHL leagues gets the best media coverage of all three. Especially from RDS which has a dedicated reporter Stéphane Leroux who is on Sports30 (equivalent to SportsCentre) regularly with highlights and scores, and also appears on magazine-type shows alongside guys who talk Habs and the NHL.

Does RDS talk much about the six Maritime based teams in the QMJHL,or do they limit their coverage exclusively to the 12 Quebec based teams.

BTW, I think they should change the name of the league to the Quebec and Maritime Junior Hockey League - they wouldn't even have to change the league acronym!! :)

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8447461)
Eh, I wasn't 100% sure whether you were or not and wasn't going to be presumptive.

.

No worries, but yes I am basically 100% francophone, in spite of the level of English (and knowledge of anglo culture) that I have due to growing up in very anglo places most of my life. But today I have spoken to my wife, kids, co-workers and parents (on the phone) so far and I haven't spoken a single word of English yet. I have a name like Pierre Dupont and my wife has a name like Josée Laplante.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447466)

BTW, I think they should change the name of the league to the Quebec and Maritime Junior Hockey League - they wouldn't even have to change the league acronym!! :)

Yeah, there would be a certain logic in that. I am sure they've though about that but I guess it runs into the issue of "optics".

The Maritime teams are, relatively speaking, often more "dynamic" in terms of attendance and probably stuff like sponsorships, etc. than the average Quebec-based-club.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447466)
Does RDS talk much about the six Maritime based teams in the QMJHL,or do they limit their coverage exclusively to the 12 Quebec based teams.

They cover the whole league. I've never actually measured the attention they give to Maritimes vs. Quebec, but certainly the Maritime clubs are not ignored. Perhaps the coverage of Quebec clubs is slightly disproportionate, I dunno.

I've even seen them broadcast regular season games between two Maritime clubs, and neither of them was the Titan!

Keep mind that all of the Maritime clubs have a strong contingent of Quebec players, and sometimes these can be some of the league's star properties.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8447461)


RDS also has a weekly show on the Quebec Midget AAA league IIRC.

.

Yup.

Obviously there is a self-serving aspect to this too.

To run a French-language sports channel in a small corner of North America is hugely challenging in terms of finding talking heads who can spout locker room platitudes about "giving their 110%" in French.

Even when covering the Habs there is the risk that you'll have to subtitle most of your post-game interviews.

So sports properties that provide lots of talking heads in French are looked upon very favourably by RDS and TVA Sports.

Even the Q's Maritime clubs are pretty good in this respect, and it also probably explains why the Quebec sports media have given a lot of coverage to the RSEQ/U Sport football programs like the Laval Rouge et Or and Montréal Carabins.

MonctonRad Jan 24, 2019 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447498)
Yeah, there would be a certain logic in that. I am sure they've though about that but I guess it runs into the issue of "optics".

I think that an acknowledgement of the importance of the maritime teams to the QMJHL is appropriate. 1/3rd of the teams in the league are based in the Maritimes, including some of the more successful franchises. You mentioned that the Q was the weakest of the three CHL leagues, but we are winning more Memorial Cups as the league matures and stabilizes. The Maritime teams are a big part of that (Halifax, Saint John & Bathurst have all won the Memorial Cup. Moncton has been in the Memorial Cup tournament twice, once in the final game). If the QMJHL just consisted of the 12 Quebec based teams, the league would be in a lot more trouble, especially since most Quebec based teams are in small and isolated markets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447498)
The Maritime teams are, relatively speaking, often more "dynamic" in terms of attendance and probably stuff like sponsorships, etc. than the average Quebec-based-club.

Indeed. Halifax & Moncton are #2 and #3 in league attendance and run professional quality organizations in larger arenas (11,000 and 8,800 seat respectively). Saint John is up there too.

JHikka Jan 24, 2019 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447561)
You mentioned that the Q was the weakest of the three CHL leagues, but we are winning more Memorial Cups as the league matures and stabilizes.

The Memorial Cup determines the best team but doesn't say much about best league. The top teams in each league might be able to beat each other but on average the WHL and OHL are far-and-away better than the Q. It's not particularly close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447561)
Indeed. Halifax & Moncton are #2 and #3 in league attendance and run professional quality organizations in larger arenas (11,000 and 8,800 seat respectively). Saint John is up there too.

The Q has a bit of sorting out to do in the next few years. I find it hard to imagine some of their smaller markets will be able to hang on long-term. I'm thinking mostly about Baie-Comeau and one of Rouyn/Val-d'or but also about Bathurst or Cape Breton. Gatineau and Chicoutimi are getting new rinks which assures their futures but looking critically at places like Baie-Comeau and Bathurst i'm not sure how they hold on beyond ten years with declining local populations and market sizes.

Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

MonctonRad Jan 24, 2019 3:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8447595)
Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

Indeed. I agree.

Gilles Courteau has been on record as stating he is happy with 18 teams, does not contemplate league expansion, and is happy with the current host cities (no plans for relocation).

Times change however, and as you have correctly stated, some shuffling about of franchises within the league may be appropriate.

If I recall correctly, Bathurst is the smallest market team in the entire CHL. Even with their recent success, it is hard to imagine the long term viability of this team. They often only get crowds of 1,200 or so out to a game.

Baie Comeau is certainly an outlier too. It has to be one of the most isolated CHL teams in the entire country. I don't imagine too many other Q League teams would shed many tears if they relocated.

The same might go for both R-N and Val d'Or, but I think these two teams together may have some synergy keeping them both viable. I don't know enough about that area of Quebec though to make any kind of informed comment.

I think Cape Breton is safe for the long term. The population of the island may be sinking like a stone, but there are still about 100,000 in the Sydney region. There is natural rivalry with Halifax as well.

As for cities that teams could relocate to. The obvious choice in NB would be Fredericton, but arena issues and UNB will likely keep this from happening. I think you're right about Trois Rivieres (Shawinigan might object though). I would hope that a team could flourish on the south shore of Montreal, perhaps in Ste. Hyacinthe.

What do you think?

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 4:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8447595)
The Memorial Cup determines the best team but doesn't say much about best league. The top teams in each league might be able to beat each other but on average the WHL and OHL are far-and-away better than the Q. It's not particularly close.



The Q has a bit of sorting out to do in the next few years. I find it hard to imagine some of their smaller markets will be able to hang on long-term. I'm thinking mostly about Baie-Comeau and one of Rouyn/Val-d'or but also about Bathurst or Cape Breton. Gatineau and Chicoutimi are getting new rinks which assures their futures but looking critically at places like Baie-Comeau and Bathurst i'm not sure how they hold on beyond ten years with declining local populations and market sizes.

Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

I am surprised that Baie-Comeau hasn't become a strong "regional" team like Rimouski has. The Océanic are one of the stronger small city teams based in Quebec.

It seems like two teams in Abitibi-Témiscamingue are a bit much. I guess the idea was that they'd thrive due to the rivalry between the two cities. That hasn't really turned either of the clubs into dynamic entities with strong attendance game in and game out.

Acadie-Bathurst is probably the weakest of the Maritime clubs. Even if they've won a championship. I don't know if I read it here but there were rumours about them going to Rivière-du-Loup but I doubt that will happen. It's not much bigger than Bathurst and it's too close to Rimouski.

Yes, the Q should be in Trois-Rivières but we'll see if that happens.

Aside from that probably the next-best place for a team would be Granby. They used to have one - Patrick Roy played his junior there.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447633)
I would hope that a team could flourish on the south shore of Montreal, perhaps in Ste. Hyancinthe.

I forget about St-Hyacinthe. They had a team for a time. Either them or Granby I guess. But after T-R of course.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447633)

The same might go for both R-N and Val d'Or, but I think these two teams together may have some synergy keeping them both viable. I don't know enough about that area of Quebec though to make any kind of informed comment.

I don't know which of Rouyn or Val-d'Or you'd sacrifice though. The cities are very equal in size. Their arenas are similar in size and old, but have undergone some recent renovations.

I doubt that if you sacrificed one of them that fans from that city would gravitate to the other team left in the region.

JHikka Jan 24, 2019 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447641)
It seems like two teams in Abitibi-Témiscamingue are a bit much. I guess the idea was that they'd thrive due to the rivalry between the two cities. That hasn't really turned either of the clubs into dynamic entities with strong attendance game in and game out.

They do alright for attendance given how small their arenas are, though. I think VDO's arena is better suited currently.

Trois-Rivieres, Granby, St-Hyacinthe all make sense to a certain degree. I wouldn't mind seeing Saint-Georges given a shot, too, but most of the arenas in these towns aren't suitable. The Q left these places initially for these reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad
I think Cape Breton is safe for the long term. The population of the island may be sinking like a stone, but there are still about 100,000 in the Sydney region. There is natural rivalry with Halifax as well.

I haven't been to Centre200 in a while but we're going on a decade since the most recent renovations. With a plummeting population, an older arena, and a lengthy drive to the nearest team I think things begin to become difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad
If I recall correctly, Bathurst is the smallest market team in the entire CHL. Even with their recent success, it is hard to imagine the long term viability of this team. They often only get crowds of 1,200 or so out to a game.

I think Bathurst has the smallest city/town population but its CA population is larger than Baie-Comeau and Swift Current.

Census Agglomeration Populations, Census 2016 (change from 2011):
Cape Breton.....99K (-3%)
Rouyn-Noranda 42K (+3%)
Moose Jaw .......35K (+2%)
Val-d'Or ...........34K (+2%)
Owen Sound ....32K (-1%)
Bathurst ..........31K (-3%)
Baie-Comeau ...28K (-3%)
Swift Current ....19K (+6%)

Comparatively:
Trois-Rivieres ...156K (+2%)
Fredericton.........102K (+3%)
Granby .............85K (+5%)
Sainte-Hyacinthe 60K (+5%)
Truro ................46K (-0%)
Saint-Georges ....33K (+4%)

Truro is an intriguing one. New arena, nearby (en route) to other CHL franchises, large enough market, stable population....

MonctonRad Jan 24, 2019 4:47 PM

:previous:

Cape Breton has a new owner, and he seems enthusiastic. He was twisting Gille Courteau's arm the other week about being the Q's nominee to host the Memorial Cup in 2022.

I was going to mention Truro. It's a growing community with a CA nearing 50,000 and halfway between Moncton and Halifax on a major divided highway. The arena is new, but the seating is limited (somewhere around 2,500-3,000).

If I were to throw out another possibility it would be Edmundston NB. Again, right on the TCH and with a new arena. They relocated the MJHL Dieppe Commandos there the other year and they've been doing very well attendance wise.

MonctonRad Jan 24, 2019 4:53 PM

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...1441371241557/

https://i.cbc.ca/1.2991288.142611255...ity-centre.jpg
Rath Eastlink Community Centre - Truro (seating 2,500)

https://i.cbc.ca/1.3197282.144007163...phitheatre.jpg
new arena in Edmundston

JHikka Jan 24, 2019 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8447706)
If I were to throw out another possibility it would be Edmundston NB. Again, right on the TCH and with a new arena. They relocated the MJHL Dieppe Commandos there the other year and they've been doing very well attendance wise.

Yeah, they tweeted out a comparison of their attendance v. Q teams without mentioning number of games, price of tickets...:haha: Nice try, I guess, but shiny new arenas in small towns are always well-attended, especially for new teams. Edmundston suffers from the same problems Bathurst has - an older, declining population base, but with the added bonus of 20% less of a market! A Bathurst-Edmundston relocation would literally and figuratively be a lateral move, just with a newer arena in the latter. Better for traveling teams, at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad
Cape Breton has a new owner, and he seems enthusiastic. He was twisting Gille Courteau's arm the other week about being the Q's nominee to host the Memorial Cup in 2022.

Ahead of Moncton or Gatineau? Good luck to him, I suppose. Quebec as a province would be going on seven years without hosting by 2022, meaning Quebec or Gatineau for 2022 seems much more likely to me.

If there's no boxes in the Truro rink then it becomes much less likely.

Acajack Jan 24, 2019 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8447674)
They do alright for attendance given how small their arenas are, though. I think VDO's arena is better suited currently.

Trois-Rivieres, Granby, St-Hyacinthe all make sense to a certain degree. I wouldn't mind seeing Saint-Georges given a shot, too, but most of the arenas in these towns aren't suitable. The Q left these places initially for these reasons.


I haven't been to Centre200 in a while but we're going on a decade since the most recent renovations. With a plummeting population, an older arena, and a lengthy drive to the nearest team I think things begin to become difficult.


I think Bathurst has the smallest city/town population but its CA population is larger than Baie-Comeau and Swift Current.

Census Agglomeration Populations, Census 2016 (change from 2011):
Cape Breton.....99K (-3%)
Rouyn-Noranda 42K (+3%)
Moose Jaw .......35K (+2%)
Val-d'Or ...........34K (+2%)
Owen Sound ....32K (-1%)
Bathurst ..........31K (-3%)
Baie-Comeau ...28K (-3%)
Swift Current ....19K (+6%)

Comparatively:
Trois-Rivieres ...156K (+2%)
Fredericton.........102K (+3%)
Granby .............85K (+5%)
Sainte-Hyacinthe 60K (+5%)
Truro ................46K (-0%)
Saint-Georges ....33K (+4%)

Truro is an intriguing one. New arena, nearby (en route) to other CHL franchises, large enough market, stable population....

This may be true for some others too but of the smaller markets, I think you could easily add another 25-30,000 to Bathurst's market as significant chunk of the Acadian Peninsula is very "into" the Titan. I have relatives who live an hour away and their kids have Titan jerseys and they went to the airport to greet the team when they won the Memorial Cup.

Shippigan is a stretch but Caraquet and Tracadie would definitely be included in that.

JHikka Jan 28, 2019 4:00 PM

Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8447792)
This may be true for some others too but of the smaller markets, I think you could easily add another 25-30,000 to Bathurst's market as significant chunk of the Acadian Peninsula is very "into" the Titan. I have relatives who live an hour away and their kids have Titan jerseys and they went to the airport to greet the team when they won the Memorial Cup.

Shippigan is a stretch but Caraquet and Tracadie would definitely be included in that.

The Bathurst CA already includes most of Beresford and the surrounding area. If you're implying that people from Tracadie and Caraquet travel into Bathurst thirty times a year for home games i'd probably consider tacking on another 20K to that listing, but the commuting patterns don't add up to warrant the CA area including them.

Bathurst does have a fairly extensive regional population to feed off of (unlike, say, Baie-Comeau...) but that population in the Acadan Peninsula is also older than most other places in Canada, so the likelihood of these people doing frequent drives to games seems unlikely. It's possible I suppose.

Acajack Jan 28, 2019 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8451942)
Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.



The Bathurst CA already includes most of Beresford and the surrounding area. If you're implying that people from Tracadie and Caraquet travel into Bathurst thirty times a year for home games i'd probably consider tacking on another 20K to that listing, but the commuting patterns don't add up to warrant the CA area including them.

Bathurst does have a fairly extensive regional population to feed off of (unlike, say, Baie-Comeau...) but that population in the Acadan Peninsula is also older than most other places in Canada, so the likelihood of these people doing frequent drives to games seems unlikely. It's possible I suppose.

Regardless, it's still not a market that is performing particularly well, I'd agree.

JHikka Jan 30, 2019 11:44 AM

The Alouettes will be rebranding their team on Friday. New jersey and new logo.

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/off...treals-launch/

esquire Feb 1, 2019 2:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8451942)
Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.

Interesting. I'm a half-season STH and this is the first I've heard of this.

I suspect that this will fly given that the Jets are still doing quite well at the moment and people are willing to pony up for a legitimate cup contender. But at the same time, demand is far softer than it was from, say, 2011-2014. I sell some of my tickets on the secondary market at my cost, which is substantially lower than the box office cost, and there's still no guarantee that the tickets will sell unless it's against a team with a large following here (basically orig. 6 and the Canadian teams).

I hope it doesn't happen for a good long while, but it would be interesting to see what happens if the team eventually takes a turn for the worse and misses the playoffs a couple years running.

isaidso Feb 2, 2019 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8454819)
The Alouettes will be rebranding their team on Friday. New jersey and new logo.

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/off...treals-launch/

Image is very important but branding is one area the CFL is terrible at. NFL branding is significantly nicer. Even NCAA football teams have nicer uniforms/logos than the CFL. I'd like to buy CFL merchandise but just can't bring myself to buy or wear the ugly stuff they've put out the last 30 years.

Preliminary images of the new Alouettes colours and jersey look sharp. I hope this gets the other 8 teams interested in better branding. The CFL can't do much to make a 25,000 seat stadium look like a major league 75,000 seat stadium but overhauling branding is something they could easily do.

isaidso Feb 2, 2019 9:54 PM

This is the only CFL jersey I've ever seen that I'd consider putting on my body. The rest are UGLY!

https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.ne...N-1600x488.png

JHikka Feb 5, 2019 1:47 PM

Super Bowl numbers via CTVPR:

CTV = 2.8M
TSN = 1.2M
RDS = 983K
CTV2 = 391K
TOTAL = 5.4M

jonny24 Feb 5, 2019 3:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8459064)
This is the only CFL jersey I've ever seen that I'd consider putting on my body. The rest are UGLY!

Seriously? I think the Argos and Ticats in particular are up there with the best of the NFL. Winnipeg too, and Sask's retro set.

Edit: Also, very sharp from Montreal. Both uniform and logo.

https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/pr...493237070e.gif

Incorporates the M, Bird, and fleurdelis.

Berklon Feb 5, 2019 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8461339)
Super Bowl numbers via CTVPR:

CTV = 2.8M
TSN = 1.2M
RDS = 983K
CTV2 = 391K
TOTAL = 5.4M

Decent numbers, but I think the numbers are down - same in the US.

Have to believe the Patriots exhaustion played a factor. Seeing them play yet again is turning off a lot of people. The Rams not having an established fan base doesn't help either.

Also, it was a rare dull game - I'm sure a lot of people turned off the game at half-time. It was close all game, but was hard to sit through. It took until late in the 3rd quarter for the pace to pick up.

Berklon Feb 5, 2019 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 8461441)
Seriously? I think the Argos and Ticats in particular are up there with the best of the NFL. Winnipeg too, and Sask's retro set.

Edit: Also, very sharp from Montreal. Both uniform and logo.

Can't speak to any of the uniforms as I'm not familiar with how they look, but I think with the exception of Montreal (old and new), the logos are solid across the board.
The new Montreal logo looks like the Ultimate Warrior logo and is way too basic. They should've just refreshed their 70's logo with a tighter modern look - I've always liked it.

esquire Feb 5, 2019 5:54 PM

^ The only beefs I have with CFL colour schemes are as follows:

-Montreal should have turned up the red ever so slightly to better distinguish themselves from the Argos, now that they're moving to a more Argo-like shade of blue

-Calgary needs to revert to red and white, or at least red/white/silver. Give Ottawa back the red and black.

What the Stamps wore in the early 90s crushes the awful mess they wear now.

http://cfl.mrx.uploads.s3.amazonaws....1151610741.png

HomeInMyShoes Feb 5, 2019 7:11 PM

^Doug could make anything look good. :haha:

elly63 Feb 7, 2019 2:38 AM

Ambrosie, AAFF issue joint statement regarding working partnership
cfl.ca February 6, 2019

TORONTO — The Canadian Football League and the Austrian American Football Federation issued a joint statement:

Following a productive day of information sharing and discussion here in Vienna, we have reached an agreement to work together to grow the game in both of our countries. We share a passion for creating opportunities for Austrian players to play at the highest levels and for Canadian players to take advantage of the fantastic opportunity that is football in Austria. With football season in Austria set to start on March 16, the top players from that country will not be able to participate this spring in the CFL’s National Combine for top Canadian prospects and players from around the gridiron football world. But we look forward to future years and all that we can achieve together.

Randy Ambrosie, Commissioner, Canadian Football League
Michael Eschlböck, President, Austrian American Football Federation
Gregor Murth, Vice President, Austrian American Football Federation

The agreement with the AAFF is the latest in what has been an list of international partnerships for Ambrosie and the CFL.

On Tuesday, The French American Football Federation was the latest group to sign onto Ambrosie’s vision to strengthen the CFL and football around the world by strengthening ties between countries where gridiron football is played.

The CFL recently reached a similar agreement with the German Football League and its governing federation. It also recently held a Combine and Draft in Mexico as part of an agreement with the Liga de Futbol Americano Profesional (LFA), the pro league in Mexico.

Ambrosie also plans to hold meetings here in Europe with football leaders from Austria, Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark.

He has said the international component of CFL 2.0 is designed to expand the CFL’s talent pool, give Canadian players more opportunities around the world and pave the way for international broadcast and streaming deals for the Canadian professional league.

JHikka Feb 7, 2019 4:35 PM

The Forbes Business of Basketball valuation list was released and the Raptors sit 11th out of 30 teams, valued at $1.675B. A 20% increase over last season, the Raptors are fifth in total valuation growth over the past five years (+222%).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbad.../#5b26b019e667

Debt as a % of total value sits at 7% ($120M), yearly revenue sits at $275M, and operating income sits at $76M. The Raps' revenue-per-fan is $28, roughly equal to Charlotte and Detroit. Gate receipts are listed at $74M.

Toronto as a market is listed as $472M of the Raps' total valuation, sitting roughly between Philadelphia and San Antonio.

Stadium represents $384M of the valuation, sitting between Boston and Dallas in that category.

https://www.forbes.com/teams/toronto-raptors/

Total revenue has increased four years in a row and now nearly double 2015's total revenue. Player expenses are nearly double 2014. Toronto's $76M in operating income is a decade-high (and presumably all-time high).

blueandgoldguy Feb 7, 2019 11:28 PM

It's definitely a case of the Big-3 in North American pro sports with the NFL, MLB and the NBA. The NHL is lagging quite a bit behind at this point due to a lack of a big US Tv deal, lack of comparable sponsorships (patches on jerseys and shoes in the NBA) both nationally and internationally.

The NBA has been considerably more successful in growing the game internationally, especially in Asia, while the NHL has been spinning their wheels for as long as I can remember, with fits and starts here and there. Over half a decade ago, they were making regular trips to Europe for pre-season and regular season games and then all of a sudden they stopped going for several years...only to start up again this past year. They was also a lack of focus on bigger European countries like England, France and Germany (countries of 60 - 80 million people) with too much emphasis on minnows like Sweden and Finland. I realize the two latter countries produce a significant number of NHL players, but there are limited returns to playing most NHL overseas games there.

JHikka Feb 8, 2019 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8465416)
It's definitely a case of the Big-3 in North American pro sports with the NFL, MLB and the NBA. The NHL is lagging quite a bit behind at this point due to a lack of a big US Tv deal, lack of comparable sponsorships (patches on jerseys and shoes in the NBA) both nationally and internationally.

The NHL's next TV/media contract is rumoured to be double their current one, at least if % increase is in line with what the NBA got and what MLB got in theirs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadg.../#14ffdc724e44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbes
As a result, the NHL, despite lower ratings than other major sports, can expect a sizeable increase in rights fees when negotiations begin for a new contract. Mark Lazarus, Chairman, NBC Broadcast, Cable, Sports and News, says, “We want to renew, and the league knows that, but only if it’s a deal that’s good for our shareholders and for the league.”

Jersey patches likely happen sooner rather than later, probably after the lockout IMO.

Acajack Feb 8, 2019 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8465989)

Jersey patches likely happen sooner rather than later, probably after the lockout IMO.

As for footwear the NHL is at a clear disadvantage vis à vis the NBA.

Teens at the mall can't wear what NHLers wear on their feet to play the game.

JHikka Feb 8, 2019 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8465996)
As for footwear the NHL is at a clear disadvantage vis à vis the NBA.

Teens at the mall can't wear what NHLers wear on their feet to play the game.

Indeed. The NHL/hockey is always going to be cursed with issues that don't exist in other sports. This works the other way, as well.

Despite this, the NHL is still reaching new record-highs for sponsorships:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbes
For the 2017-18 season, NHL revenue was $4.86 billion, doubling the total from the 2006-07 season. The NHL was aided by a record high $559.5 million in sponsorship deals. According to Forbes, the average NHL franchise in 2018 was valued at $630 million, a 6% increase from the previous year. Four of the franchises are valued at over $1 billion.

The NBA is probably the hottest league in the world right now.

esquire Feb 8, 2019 2:34 PM

^ No question that the NHL is on an upward trajectory, but it's still a small fish in the US sports pond and still lags way behind the other 3 major leagues.

It's funny, in Canada there is some cachet attached to the supposed big league status of having a NHL team, but when you spend some time down in the US you realize how much of an afterthought the NHL really is down there. NBCSN (formerly the Outdoor Life Network) caters to a niche hockey audience, but something mainstream like ESPN SportsCenter gives hockey games a few minutes a night at most near the end of the show.

With the boomers well into their retirement phase and gen X well on its way, I wonder if we have reached peak hockey in this country? Younger generations seem a lot less hockey-centric... basketball and soccer are a bigger deal than they used to be. And I say this as a hockey fan.

JHikka Feb 8, 2019 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8466021)
^ No question that the NHL is on an upward trajectory, but it's still a small fish in the US sports pond and still lags way behind the other 3 major leagues.

Oh no doubt, but I think the NHL has carved out a sustainable niche for itself in the US and shows signs of good improvement for the future.

The US is such a vast market that one can do pretty well by flying under the radar for a long period of time. In saying that, the NHL has good regional pull in select US regions but little-to-nothing in the others. It's growing but it's not going to be passing the big three any time soon, and I feel as if MLS is making up more ground on the NHL than the NHL is on the big three (in the US).

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8466021)
With the boomers well into their retirement phase and gen X well on its way, I wonder if we have reached peak hockey in this country? Younger generations seem a lot less hockey-centric... basketball and soccer are a bigger deal than they used to be. And I say this as a hockey fan.

We've more than likely already passed peak hockey in Canada IMO. I'm guessing we reached it in the early 90s or early 00s. Basketball is taking over everywhere so it's not a Canada-centic phenomenon, and soccer is the most popular sport in the world so it makes sense for it to be making more serious inroads in this country. One could probably argue that the NBA expansion into Canada was the end of peak hockey in Canada if you're looking at things from a marketshare perspective, and if not that then the Vince Carter years.

wave46 Feb 8, 2019 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8466021)
^ No question that the NHL is on an upward trajectory, but it's still a small fish in the US sports pond and still lags way behind the other 3 major leagues.

It's funny, in Canada there is some cachet attached to the supposed big league status of having a NHL team, but when you spend some time down in the US you realize how much of an afterthought the NHL really is down there. NBCSN (formerly the Outdoor Life Network) caters to a niche hockey audience, but something mainstream like ESPN SportsCenter gives hockey games a few minutes a night at most near the end of the show.

With the boomers well into their retirement phase and gen X well on its way, I wonder if we have reached peak hockey in this country? Younger generations seem a lot less hockey-centric... basketball and soccer are a bigger deal than they used to be. And I say this as a hockey fan.

Depends on the area of the country. I suspect areas that haven't seen their demographics change much in the last 30 years will still be at 'peak hockey' for awhile yet.

However, areas that have seen immigration will be moving away from hockey. Look at the difference in the crowd at Maple Leaf Square in Toronto when the Leafs are having a playoff game versus the Raptors. That's the future.

But, yeah, even in the classic hockey markets of the US - New York, Boston, Chicago - the NHL is a distant second fiddle to the NFL, MLB and NBA.

I hope the NHL makes hay while the sun shines.

Acajack Feb 8, 2019 2:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8466048)
Oh no doubt, but I think the NHL has carved out a sustainable niche for itself in the US and shows signs of good improvement for the future.

The US is such a vast market that one can do pretty well by flying under the radar for a long period of time. In saying that, the NHL has good regional pull in select US regions but little-to-nothing in the others. It's growing but it's not going to be passing the big three any time soon, and I feel as if MLS is making up more ground on the NHL than the NHL is on the big three (in the US).



We've more than likely already passed peak hockey in Canada IMO. I'm guessing we reached it in the early 90s or early 00s. Basketball is taking over everywhere so it's not a Canada-centic phenomenon, and soccer is the most popular sport in the world so it makes sense for it to be making more serious inroads in this country. One could probably argue that the NBA expansion into Canada was the end of peak hockey in Canada if you're looking at things from a marketshare perspective, and if not that then the Vince Carter years.

I agree that we've passed "peak hockey", though its supremacy was so great that it's still far ahead of any other sport. The sports which are competing with it and in some cases gaining on it are dividing up the remaining share of the pie between themselves (even if that share increases in size as hockey's dominance fades).

In the future I know hockey won't be (close to) THE ONLY GAME, but I honestly can't see where in the future one single other sport will be more popular than hockey in Canada overall.

Hockey will likely conserve a kind of plurality status as the most popular sport.

isaidso Feb 8, 2019 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 8461441)
Seriously? I think the Argos and Ticats in particular are up there with the best of the NFL. Winnipeg too, and Sask's retro set.

After 30+ years waiting for the CFL to put out merchandise I'd consider buying I gave up. I'm actually stunned that there's something nice enough to buy. Can one wear an Alouettes jersey but support a different team? :koko:

At this point I may have to. I think I've waited long enough.

isaidso Feb 8, 2019 6:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8464095)

He has said the international component of CFL 2.0 is designed to expand the CFL’s talent pool, give Canadian players more opportunities around the world and pave the way for international broadcast and streaming deals for the Canadian professional league.

This is excellent news. Those 8 countries represent a television market 10 times larger than Canada. Even getting a small sliver market share could translate into significantly higher television audiences for the CFL. This is something the CFL should have done decades ago.

People outside of Canada/US are oblivious to the existence of the CFL and Canadian Football. Even if all this does is change that, it's a victory afaic.

isaidso Feb 8, 2019 6:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8466021)
^ No question that the NHL is on an upward trajectory, but it's still a small fish in the US sports pond and still lags way behind the other 3 major leagues.

It's well behind some others too: NCAA basketball, NCAA football, golf, and in a significant number of US markets NASCAR and MLS.


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