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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

Acajack Nov 27, 2018 2:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8391017)
I was going to post this earlier in the week but I didn't want to give our resident CFL hater any ammunition.

Just to put the above headline into context if people don't read the article it had

Ottawa Redblacks/Hamilton Tiger-Cats 729,000
Calgary Stampeders/Winnipeg Blue Bombers 1.2 million

I have yet to see a reason why Ottawa constantly rates so low, they have a good fanbase and are an interesting, fairly exciting team to watch. The Redblacks TV ratings have been near the lowest since the get go, something is not right there.

This sets up a Grey Cup that will not likely be a great number, Ottawa and the ever present Calgary.

The problem with the CFL is that it is competing with it's own history. Other sports get those numbers and they trumpet how great it is and the double digit increases but the CFL gets it and it's a failure. I don't get it.

As I've said many times, in the NFL 6-3 is a titanic defensive struggle, in the CFL it's two crappy offenses.

Ottawa's fans are all millenial techies who live stream games on the Net I guess.

AuxTown Nov 27, 2018 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8391127)
Ottawa's fans are all millenial techies who live stream games on the Net I guess.

I would say that Ottawa bats way above the average when it comes to cutting cable. I keep my cable, mostly for live sports and news channels....but I am now a minority. People in Ottawa tend to be kind of a granola-eating, cross country skiing, non-sports watching type. There ARE lots of die hard Sens and Redblacks fans in our city but probably a higher percentage of indifferent young folks than your average town.

Acajack Nov 27, 2018 3:28 AM

I was being a bit sarcastic because live streaming is often cited as the reason TV ratings are so low for certain teams in other sports.

blueandgoldguy Nov 28, 2018 1:49 AM

I looked at the ratings from previous Grey Cups...Calgary and Ottawa's match from 2 years ago also had lower ratings. I think there is some fatigue from seeing Calgary in the Grey Cup so many times in recent years. Additionally I think these are two of the smallest tv viewing audiences in the league.

Let's be honest though - the game was poor and kinda boring with one memorable play in the entire 60 minutes. A lot of the blame has to go to those responsible for the turf. There was no reason for it to be in the terrible condition it was in for the Grey Cup. Players could not really play to their full potential.

When Regina and Winnipeg were Grey Cup hosts, the conditions of the field were quite good. I don't think the organizers have any legit excuses as they were given all the time in the world to prep the field. Bush League.

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 1:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8392231)
I looked at the ratings from previous Grey Cups...Calgary and Ottawa's match from 2 years ago also had lower ratings.

For reference.

Previous Grey Cup Ratings:

Year: West/East...............TSN/RDS.......(TOTAL)
2012: Calgary/Toronto......5.5M/300K.....(5.8M)
2013: Sask/Hamilton........4.5M/???K.....(4.5M)
2014: Calgary/Hamilton....3.8M/251K....(4.1M)
2015: Edmonton/Ottawa...4.1M/230K....(4.3M)
2016: Calgary/Ottawa.......3.6M/254K....(3.9M)
2017: Calgary/Toronto......4.1M/220K....(4.3M)
2018: Calgary/Ottawa.......3.1M/???K....(3.1M)

Numbers courtesy Bell, cfldb

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 3:05 PM

Interesting that the Ottawa Redblacks being in the Grey Cup seems to have zero bearing on RDS' ratings for it.

Of course, most Franco-Ontarians in Ottawa and a decent-sized minority of people in Gatineau watch on TSN, I gather.

Though my friends in Gatineau who watched the Grey Cup did so on RDS, and sports bars here all had it on RDS.

TorontoDrew Nov 28, 2018 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8391019)
But the news is not all bad


https://i.imgur.com/rarTdBs.png


Would love to know how they got that data. I can't think of a single Millennial I know who cares about the league.


Then again a 5% jump would be very easy if the numbers are already rock bottom. It's harder to fluctuate numbers like that if you have larger numbers of fans.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 5:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8392767)
Would love to know how they got that data. I can't think of a single Millennial I know who cares about the league.

Hey I know this is crazy, but is it possible that what might be true in Toronto does not necessarily apply to the rest of the country?

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 5:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392774)
Hey I know this is crazy, but is it possible that what might be true in Toronto does not necessarily apply to the rest of the country?

It would be foolish to argue that the CFL doesn't have a severe issue with its demographics, though, Toronto or not. 70% of the CFL's viewership is 50+.

This is from an article this week:

“That’s not going to be a surprise to anybody,” said Derek Mager, the managing partner at research and consultancy group The Data Jungle, who has worked with nearly every team in the CFL. “You saw the CFL as a league trying to rebrand and remarket itself a few years ago, and they’ve been trying for a while.

“I think one of their tag lines a few years back was ‘this isn’t your grandfather’s league anymore.’ There’s been a push to try and refill that funnel.”
...
“The demographic is still older, but a larger, younger audience are NFL fans as opposed to CFL fans,” said Mager."


“Football is on the decline, and I could start with the Lions and the CFL. You just look at the people in the stands, and they’re all 60 and over. They’ve disengaged … they’re not connected with the youth.
...
“And as a result of that, the stands were full and there were lots of kids there … and all those kids now are old and they’re still there. They’re missing the young group that’s coming in.”


Emphasis added mine.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/f...3-f85cd1927eca

Anything we provide from personal experience is going to be anecdotal but I can't help but notice most of the time when I see people wearing REDBLACKS merch around town they're usually 50+. It's enough of a trend that it sticks out quite a bit if you look for it.

Berklon Nov 28, 2018 5:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 8392767)
Would love to know how they got that data. I can't think of a single Millennial I know who cares about the league.

I know very few as well, but as esquire notes - this is probably due to the part of the country we live in. I'm sure other provinces/cities would have different results.

Quote:

Then again a 5% jump would be very easy if the numbers are already rock bottom. It's harder to fluctuate numbers like that if you have larger numbers of fans.
Most likely, the CFL acknowledges that it's numbers are low for this demographic - hence their efforts to try and cater/market to them. It has the largest jump of any NA pro league in this demographic because the other leagues don't have as much of a jump to make as it's higher to begin with - although I'm sure they would love to increase it another 5%.

I think CFL should try playing their playoffs on Saturdays again, and maybe try the Grey Cup as well - just to avoid going head-to-head with the NFL. I know as soon as the NFL regular season starts up, they go out of their way to avoid the competition - so it might be best to avoid them here as well.

EpicPonyTime Nov 28, 2018 5:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392774)
Hey I know this is crazy, but is it possible that what might be true in Toronto does not necessarily apply to the rest of the country?

What are you talking about? Don't you know the world ends at Steeles Ave? ;)

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 5:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8392813)
I think CFL should try playing their playoffs on Saturdays again, and maybe try the Grey Cup as well - just to avoid going head-to-head with the NFL. I know as soon as the NFL regular season starts up, they go out of their way to avoid the competition - so it might be best to avoid them here as well.

Saturday gets them going up against NCAA Football and Hockey Night in Canada.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 5:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392808)
It would be foolish to argue that the CFL doesn't have a severe issue with its demographics, though, Toronto or not. 70% of the CFL's viewership is 50+.

This is from an article this week:

“That’s not going to be a surprise to anybody,” said Derek Mager, the managing partner at research and consultancy group The Data Jungle, who has worked with nearly every team in the CFL. “You saw the CFL as a league trying to rebrand and remarket itself a few years ago, and they’ve been trying for a while.

“I think one of their tag lines a few years back was ‘this isn’t your grandfather’s league anymore.’ There’s been a push to try and refill that funnel.”
...
“The demographic is still older, but a larger, younger audience are NFL fans as opposed to CFL fans,” said Mager."


“Football is on the decline, and I could start with the Lions and the CFL. You just look at the people in the stands, and they’re all 60 and over. They’ve disengaged … they’re not connected with the youth.
...
“And as a result of that, the stands were full and there were lots of kids there … and all those kids now are old and they’re still there. They’re missing the young group that’s coming in.”


Emphasis added mine.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/f...3-f85cd1927eca

Anything we provide from personal experience is going to be anecdotal but I can't help but notice most of the time when I see people wearing REDBLACKS merch around town they're usually 50+. It's enough of a trend that it sticks out quite a bit if you look for it.

I don't doubt that the CFL's demographic skews older because I can see it with my own eyes. But the idea that millennials don't follow the league is an absurdly Toronto-centric way of looking at it... saying something like that makes about as much sense as me concluding that everyone in Canada is a big CFL fan because I live on the prairies and many people actually fit that description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8392820)
What are you talking about? Don't you know the world ends at Steeles Ave? ;)

:haha:

esquire Nov 28, 2018 5:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392824)
Saturday gets them going up against NCAA Football and Hockey Night in Canada.

I can't imagine NCAA football is a concern in Canada. More realistically, Saturday is a day where real life happens for a lot of people, errands, yardwork, shopping, studying, socializing, etc. which would likely drive down viewership. I can tell you I hate Saturday afternoon CFL games because it's an extremely inconvenient time... Sundays are far easier to accommodate.

I would imagine that if TSN concluded that it would be better off with a Saturday Grey Cup, it would happen tout suite.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 5:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392824)
Saturday gets them going up against NCAA Football and Hockey Night in Canada.

I doubt NCAA makes that much of a dent in the CFL's fanbase/eyeballs. And even if it does, it's still better than going against the NFL on Sundays. (Not that I am really sold on moving playoff games to Saturday.)

And of course HNIC has "night" in the name. The western playoff game should be over by the time the puck is dropped for the early game. And if they are worried about that they could just move the eastern game to noon and the western game to 3:30.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392837)
And of course HNIC has "night" in the name. The western playoff game should be over by the time the puck is dropped for the early game. And if they are worried about that they could just move the eastern game to noon and the western game to 3:30.

From a fan point of view I would much prefer early starts to playoff games... it usually gets noticeably colder once the sun goes down (on those rare instances where Winnipeg hosts a playoff game). But again, I'm assuming TSN calls the shots on that.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 6:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392841)
From a fan point of view I would much prefer early starts to playoff games... it usually gets noticeably colder once the sun goes down (on those rare instances where Winnipeg hosts a playoff game). But again, I'm assuming TSN calls the shots on that.

I actually thought of this too, but forgot to mention it.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392808)

Anything we provide from personal experience is going to be anecdotal but I can't help but notice most of the time when I see people wearing REDBLACKS merch around town they're usually 50+. It's enough of a trend that it sticks out quite a bit if you look for it.

I believe you've mentioned going to Redblacks games before, so you can't not know that the crowd there is definitely NOT comprised mainly of people over 50. Not even close. It's very balanced among age groups.

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 6:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392835)
I can't imagine NCAA football is a concern in Canada.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392837)
I doubt NCAA makes that much of a dent in the CFL's fanbase/eyeballs.

I think you'd be surprised. If the CFL is going to go after people under 30 they're likely to meet some headwind if they're going up against NCAAF. I wouldn't underestimate how many people watch NCAAF in Canada. :hmmm:
Either way, TSN has both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392891)
I believe you've mentioned going to Redblacks games before, so you can't not know that the crowd there is definitely NOT comprised mainly of people over 50. Not even close. It's very balanced among age groups.

The games themselves are more balanced than their TV audience but it's still a heftier lean when comparing against 67s/Fury/Senators. 67s and Fury are mostly younger families and Senators games are a good mix of everyone (would be younger if a car wasn't required to get to Kanata...)

I did that wood patio thing at a REDBLACKS game this season and although most of the people on the patio were under 40 it is also true that most weren't there for football. Good excuse to drink with something going on in the background. Tickets were free, too, which wasn't too bad. :tup:

Argos crowds were a similar makeup to REDBLACKS, IMO, just half the size.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392922)

The games themselves are more balanced than their TV audience but it's still a heftier lean when comparing against 67s/Fury/Senators. 67s and Fury are mostly younger families and Senators games are a good mix of everyone (would be younger if a car wasn't required to get to Kanata...)

I did that wood patio thing at a REDBLACKS game this season and although most of the people on the patio were under 40 it is also true that most weren't there for football. Good excuse to drink with something going on in the background. Tickets were free, too, which wasn't too bad. :tup:

Argos crowds were a similar makeup to REDBLACKS, IMO, just half the size.

I was in a paid ticket section for the eastern final.

We were a bunch of 40-something guys, next to us was a rough-looking guy about our age with his wife. Behind us were people in their 50s. In front of me was dad about our age with his son about 10 years old. And next over in our row were some Indo-Canadian guys who looked to be university-aged.

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392961)
I was in a paid ticket section for the eastern final.

We were a bunch of 40-something guys, next to us was a rough-looking guy about our age with his wife. Behind us were people in their 50s. In front of me was dad about our age with his son about 10 years old. And next over in our row were some Indo-Canadian guys who looked to be university-aged.

This breakdown sounds pretty similar to the TV breakdown, then, all things considered. :hmmm:

Regardless it's all anecdotal.

-------------

Grey Cup had 200K viewers on ESPN2 in the US.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/article...1-25-2018.html

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 7:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392808)

“Football is on the decline, and I could start with the Lions and the CFL. You just look at the people in the stands, and they’re all 60 and over. They’ve disengaged … they’re not connected with the youth.
...
“And as a result of that, the stands were full and there were lots of kids there … and all those kids now are old and they’re still there. They’re missing the young group that’s coming in.”

[/url][/I]

.

I never dispute that the CFL has demographic challenges, but when I read stuff like this, I can't help but think: it's not the same people who are 60 today who were 60 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

And so these 60 year olds who are CFL fans today were in their 30s in the 1980s when the Big CFL Turn-Off happened for many Canadian sports fans.

Most people who were around as a fan in the golden era of the CFL, pre-decline (the 60s and 70s) are in their 70s and 80s today.

The bunch of guys I went to the eastern final with are all CFL fans (most don't even follow the NFL) and they were in their teens when the CFL tanked in the 1980s.

The CFL has always attracted *some* new fans, even during its darkest years.

Though perhaps it's attracting less and less of them, but of this I am not sure.

As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 7:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392922)
I think you'd be surprised. If the CFL is going to go after people under 30 they're likely to meet some headwind if they're going up against NCAAF. I wouldn't underestimate how many people watch NCAAF in Canada. :hmmm:
Either way, TSN has both.

You're the numbers guy, give us some stats. I'd be shocked if NCAA football had anything even in the same order of magnitude as CFL and NFL. This is not to disparage the NCAA's product, I just see it as a niche market in Canada .

Again, getting into the anecdotes here, but I know a lot of guys who like football. Some like CFL only, some like NFL only, most watch both to varying degrees. But the only guys I know who have more than a passing interest in NCAA football tend to be a tiny group of the most hardcore - these are the guys who are either coaching high school teams, playing in adult flag football leagues, reffing or doing something else that goes beyond merely watching on TV as a fan. And those guys are generally watching CFL and NFL too.

Quote:

I did that wood patio thing at a REDBLACKS game this season and although most of the people on the patio were under 40 it is also true that most weren't there for football. Good excuse to drink with something going on in the background. Tickets were free, too, which wasn't too bad. :tup:
This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392998)


This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

Berklon Nov 28, 2018 7:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8392922)
I think you'd be surprised. If the CFL is going to go after people under 30 they're likely to meet some headwind if they're going up against NCAAF. I wouldn't underestimate how many people watch NCAAF in Canada. :hmmm:
Either way, TSN has both.

Are there any Canadian TV ratings for NCAAF? I can't imagine the ratings would be that large - but I could be wrong. I'd be curious to know.
I know if I wanted to watch them, I could catch about 5 games every Saturday with my extremely basic cable package.

Berklon Nov 28, 2018 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392981)
As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

Most definitely. The youth of today have so many more entertainment options available to them that watching sports isn't the default thing to do like it was in my day (get off my lawn!).

wave46 Nov 28, 2018 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8393003)
I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

It's for the party. Trust me. And a party it is.

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 7:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392998)
You're the numbers guy, give us some stats. I'd be shocked if NCAA football had anything even in the same order of magnitude as CFL and NFL. This is not to disparage the NCAA's product, I just see it as a niche market in Canada .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon
Are there any Canadian TV ratings for NCAAF? I can't imagine the ratings would be that large - but I could be wrong. I'd be curious to know.
I know if I wanted to watch them, I could catch about 5 games every Saturday with my extremely basic cable package.

NCAAF stats for Canada are exceptionally difficult to find. It's hard enough getting stats for just about any other sports league. :hmmm:

Here's a pretty infographic to distract:

https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-cont...GENERATION.jpg

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...avent-changed/

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392998)
This is getting a little desperate to make your point ("lots of young people at the game but they don't count because they were drinking on a patio"), but OK.

No different than anything else most others have said in this thread. It's all anecdotal and it gets us mostly nowhere. "Ottawa is full of techies", "Toronto is all Millennials", etc. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack
I have to wonder if every single person in a crowd of 60,000 at an NFL game is actually there "for the football".

The NFL isn't exactly bulletproof from attendance issues, either, particularly this season. TV figures seem to be up, though. :shrug:

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 8:01 PM

That's a very interesting graphic.

If results from Quebec only were extracted, baseball would be lower, basketball would be ever lower than it already is, and soccer and tennis would be a tad higher. Auto racing (F1) and combat sports (boxing, UFC) didn't even merit their own column but I bet they would in a Quebec-only graphic.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 8:08 PM

^ I find it peculiar that curling is omitted from that infographic... it has a considerable following compared to fairly marginal pursuits like rugby, cycling and cricket.

VANRIDERFAN Nov 28, 2018 8:11 PM

And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.:runaway:

esquire Nov 28, 2018 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 8393066)
And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.:runaway:

I thought football came in oddly low when you consider that the totals would presumably include both NFL and CFL... your theory could explain it!

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8393069)
I thought football came in oddly low when you consider that the totals would presumably include both NFL and CFL... your theory could explain it!

I think the poll probably didn't allow for multiple answers. So it's only people's number one sport. It excludes everything from number two on down...

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 8393066)
And its a Sportsnet sponsored poll, which means they would have skewed the questions heavily towards hockey.:runaway:

The polling numbers are via MacLean's/Abacus Data stemming from Canada 150.

The SN logo plastered onto a graphic with strong stats for hockey and soccer wasn't lost on me, either, though. :hmmm:

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 8:20 PM

Generally speaking, when allowing for multiple responses, for Canada in general hockey comes in around 40-50%, football 25-30%, baseball in the 15% range and soccer and basketball around 10% or just under.

wave46 Nov 28, 2018 8:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8392981)
As I've mentioned before I think there is a slow but steady overall decline in pro sports fandom among young males, and this is affecting most sports. Even the big guys.

That's what should terrify the big sports leagues.

The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

If you want to go to a game, tickets are $100+ per seat, unless you're somewhere where nobody cares and can get tickets cheap.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393083)
That's what should terrify the big sports leagues.

The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

If you want to go to a game, tickets are $100+ per seat, unless you're somewhere where nobody cares and can get tickets cheap. Not a cheap night out.

League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

In some respects it's a small miracle that attendance is still as high as it is though, considering that the at-home experience has never been better with big-screen HDTV feeds being pretty much the default these days and 4K starting to become common, while game tickets are more expensive than ever.

I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient, not to mention way cheaper, to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

elly63 Nov 28, 2018 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8392774)
Hey I know this is crazy, but is it possible that what might be true in Toronto does not necessarily apply to the rest of the country?

That's crazy talk! :)

JHikka Nov 28, 2018 8:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393083)
]The Big 4 leagues are pricing themselves out of the market. It was once an 'Average Joe' thing, but is becoming less that every year. The rot starts to happen when people stop watching the TV broadcasts. Given the young people are cutting the cord on paid TV and pro sports is moving towards dedicated sports channels (and subscriptions), it doesn't paint a great picture.

This is why sports teams are beginning to emphasis atmosphere at games. The event itself isn't enough for some young people - there needs to be something heavy and worthwhile going on. The arena/stadium needs to be packed, rocking, and alight.

We're getting to the point where young people aren't even cutting cords because they have no cords to cut - people who have grown up without cable whatsoever and rely nearly exclusively on internet/streaming. If leagues can't get on top of this (the MLB has been particularly good at getting online) then they'll be left behind.

For sports teams, as long as there are enough wealthier people in the venue (boxes, premium seats, etc.) then it's fine. A team can make off of one premium seat what they make off of ten cheap seats over the course of a year. It's why new arena and stadium builds are being downsized and why ticket scarcity is a better issue to have than ticket supply.

Group sales and corporate packages are the name of the game. :tup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

TV deals (including online and streaming rights) continue to increase along with sponsorship deals. Revenue streams are not an issue for pro sports leagues right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

This is why it comes down to atmosphere at games. People are willing to go to games if there's a crazy atmosphere that you can't get from being at home on the couch. It's essentially the only way physical sports can compete going into the future.

If your sport is boring, or slow, or monotonous, it likely doesn't have much of a future. Looking at you, Golf and NASCAR.

wave46 Nov 28, 2018 8:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8393091)
League revenues tend not to be hurting though, even if attendance and viewership are in some cases.

In some respects it's a small miracle that attendance is still as high as it is though, considering that the at-home experience has never been better with big-screen HDTV feeds being pretty much the default these days and 4K starting to become common, while game tickets are more expensive than ever.

I have partial season ticket packages for the Jets and Blue Bombers and although I enjoy the experience of being in the stands, it is a million times easier and more convenient, not to mention way cheaper, to sit at home and watch on TV. Sometimes I wonder why I bother spending money on game tickets...

I'm looking at it from a 'tip of the iceberg' point of view.

The Big 3 automakers had that complacent point of view too, until it all came crashing down.

I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.

esquire Nov 28, 2018 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393121)
I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.

It could very well happen to the NHL too. I mean, things can change fast... it was only a generation ago that NHL tickets were maybe 3x or 4x the cost of a movie ticket and it was not uncommon for a NHLer to make 120 grand.

It is definitely not written in stone that third liners will continue to command millions a year until the end of time.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393121)
I'm looking at it from a 'tip of the iceberg' point of view.

The Big 3 automakers had that complacent point of view too, until it all came crashing down.

I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.

I get the same feeling when I look at pro sports numbers, which are often as good or better than ever.

Like it could be a house of cards, or a balloon that keeps inflating and inflating... until one day it pops.

I have teens and while there are still lots of boys interested in pro sports, the percentage is stil *way* lower than when I was a kid. When it was basically everyone. With only a very small number of outliers. Obviously, some of those interested were pretending just to be part of the crowd.

But today there is just a huge demographic of young males who have zero interest in pro sports.

Not that I care either way - but if I were involved in that business I'd keep an eye on the growing mass of indifferents.

blueandgoldguy Nov 29, 2018 11:30 PM

I am curious to see how much the e-sports phenomenon will grow among younger generations. I hear it is a billion dollar industry already.

JHikka Dec 1, 2018 1:44 PM

@JLew1050
Last night's win over the Warriors was the most-watched Raptors regular season game ever on TSN with 564K viewers. 1.9 million Canadians tuned in to some part of the game. The previous most-watched reg season game was last month's opener (528K). The Kawhi effect is real.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396069)
@JLew1050
Last night's win over the Warriors was the most-watched Raptors regular season game ever on TSN with 564K viewers. 1.9 million Canadians tuned in to some part of the game. The previous most-watched reg season game was last month's opener (528K). The Kawhi effect is real.

Not to be a killjoy but...

While I can appreciate that Raptors fans are excited, I am not sure what the Great Canadian Sports Achievement is here.

OK, so the Raptors have good attendance and increasing TV ratings. They play in the best league in the world in their sport that also happens to be entirely U.S.-based except for them. They play in a huge city and metro area with lots of disposable income. They benefit from the U.S. media machine and the popularity of the NBA among many celebrities popular with young people, *plus* their home city is the centre of the Canadian media that has decent audiences in the vast majority of the country?

I mean, how could they not be a successful pro sports property?

But getting excited about this as a uniquely Canadian success story is about the same as getting excited because millions of Canadians went to see the latest Marvel superhero blockbuster at their local Canadian-owned multiplexes.

Yeah for us!

esquire Dec 2, 2018 3:32 PM

^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

elly63 Dec 2, 2018 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

Have to agree. When I read that, the first thing I thought of was that that was an average CFL regular season rating.

As I said it's all perception, the CFL is competing against it's own history, that Raptors number is a triumph for them but the start of a death knell for the CFL.

What I can't understand is why a few here so gleefully campaign to try and kill about the only true national league we have in favour of foreign products. I just don't know how or why that is hurting them.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 3:49 PM

NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

esquire Dec 2, 2018 4:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8396661)
NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

The only possible explanation, really. Much like how the millions of TFC fans are not reflected in their infomercial tier TV ratings.

JHikka Dec 2, 2018 4:08 PM

Interesting how I can post NBA numbers and the discussion still ends up being about the CFL. :hmmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

The CFL and TSN are sort of in this together at this point: TSN has no other major properties coming up for availability any time soon and the CFL needs TSN to survive financially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

Firstly, these are only TV numbers, an antiquated system of surveying a sports team's popularity. I post them here because they're numbers but they're not the end of any discussion. If TSN ever posted streaming/mobile numbers we would have a better indication of their social media impact as a whole for most properties. It's a shame they don't.

Secondly, CFL teams play a limited number of games per year compared to an NHL or NBA team. The Raptors play 82 games in a regular season, so there's plenty more space for ads and ad placements as a whole regardless of viewers. Even if the Raptors average slightly less viewers than the Argos on TSN they're playing four times as many games. The Raptors play as many games as the CFL does as a whole which equates to an equal sponsorship plate for advertisers.

It's a very simplistic way of looking at things if you're assuming TV ratings are the end-all, be-all of a team's popularity or economic well-being. This isn't the 1980s anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63
As I said it's all perception, the CFL is competing against it's own history, that Raptors number is a triumph for them but the start of a death knell for the CFL.

They're a death knell for the CFL because TV is their main, major source of revenue for most teams. CFL teams cannot bring in sponsorship dollars that major league sports teams can. The Raptors don't need to use TV as a crutch as much as CFL teams need to.

The amount the Raptors rake in on their jersey sponsor patch alone could pay for an entire CFL's teams wages for a full season. [Source] The CFL simply doesn't have this potential for sponsorship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack
NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

Presumably yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
The only possible explanation, really. Much like how the millions of TFC fans are not reflected in their infomercial tier TV ratings.

It's almost as if young people don't watch TV. :hmmm:


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