SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

SaskOttaLoo Feb 3, 2018 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8072127)
Besides, wake me up when these so called Canadian ULCC's decide to serve the nation of Quebec, which would benefit the most from more competition on the domestic front.....

(Links in french only)

https://www.lesoleil.com/actualite/g...692a6a6d60ab91

At least AC recently lowered some prices for intra-Quebec flying.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/na...ses-tarifs.php

That last link says it all...

round trip airfares, (5 feb-9 feb), based on google flights.

YUL-YGP 900$
YUL-YUY 907$
YUL-YZV 770$
YUL-YGR 861$
============
YUL-PEK 682$
YUL-CDG 659$
YUL-NYC 374$


How interesting that fares are so high in Quebec. Seems possibly like some low hanging fruit for some new entrants to the sector. Anyone have ideas on why the new entrants aren't focusing on Quebec, or even why WJ has not? The Timmons example vs. Rouyn-Noranda is striking. It's interesting how there are fairly regular cases where firms avoid Quebec and first go after other parts of the country.

On another note, it's puzzling to me that the mayors are focused on government intervention instead of finding a free market solution, as the federal gov't is quoted as advocating for and which seems like the clear solution.

Acajack Feb 3, 2018 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo (Post 8072215)
It's interesting how there are fairly regular cases where firms avoid Quebec and first go after other parts of the country.

.

I don't think one can deny that that happens sometimes. In many cases it's actually a bit of a positive because it allows breathing room for Quebec companies to develop and grow.

But in areas like the airline sector where Quebec is arguably too small to develop competitive homegrown airlines, it's a disadvantage for sure.

isaidso Feb 3, 2018 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8072237)
I don't think one can deny that that happens sometimes. In many cases it's actually a bit of a positive because it allows breathing room for Quebec companies to develop and grow.

But in areas like the airline sector where Quebec is arguably too small to develop competitive homegrown airlines, it's a disadvantage for sure.

A Quebec based airline is free to fly between which ever 2 points in Canada in chooses to go after. It's also free to fly anywhere in north America and beyond. Ireland's 5 million population didn't prevent it from developing one of the world's biggest airlines: Ryannair. Quebec's population is neither here nor there.

thenoflyzone Feb 4, 2018 6:06 PM

AC scheduled daily departures from their hubs for today, sunday, Feb 4 (includes AC Express and AC Rouge):

(actual departures today will be lower at YYZ/YUL, due to snowstorm)

YYZ 353
YUL 156
YVR 150
YYC 94

(Source: airport flight schedules)

total flights from/to the 4 hubs: 1506

Air Canada's corporate profile mentions 1600 flights/day, on average, system wide.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...e-profile.html

Quote:

Air Canada, Air Canada Rouge and its Air Canada Express regional partners operate on average 1,600 scheduled flights each day

Johnny Aussie Feb 4, 2018 7:53 PM

With all the additions being added for the summer.
For YVR and YYC AC daily departures will be:

YVR 186 - 81 mainline 5 rouge 100 jazz
YYC 117 - 46 mainline 1 rouge 52 jazz 18 georgian

Compared to Westjet
YVR 81 - 58 mainline 23 encore
YYC 137 - 88 mainline 38 encore 11 link

casper Feb 4, 2018 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8073117)
AC scheduled daily departures from their hubs for today, sunday, Feb 4 (includes AC Express and AC Rouge):

(actual departures today will be lower at YYZ/YUL, due to snowstorm)

YYZ 353
YUL 156
YVR 150
YYC 94

(Source: airport flight schedules)

total flights from/to the 4 hubs: 1506

Air Canada's corporate profile mentions 1600 flights/day, on average, system wide.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...e-profile.html

Males sense as there are a hood number of flights that don't touch one of the hubs.

thenoflyzone Feb 4, 2018 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8073199)
With all the additions being added for the summer.
For YVR and YYC AC daily departures will be:

YVR 186 - 81 mainline 5 rouge 100 jazz
YYC 117 - 46 mainline 1 rouge 52 jazz 18 georgian

Compared to Westjet
YVR 81 - 58 mainline 23 encore
YYC 137 - 88 mainline 38 encore 11 link

Do you have YYZ and YUL's AC figures for summer as well? Would be interesting to compare all of them.

Johnny Aussie Feb 4, 2018 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8073264)
Do you have YYZ and YUL's AC figures for summer as well? Would be interesting to compare all of them.

Sorry no. I only look at Western Canada. Even though I’m a CPA I don’t have the patience to tackle YYZ’s numbers.

SaskScraper Feb 4, 2018 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo (Post 8072215)
How interesting that fares are so high in Quebec. Seems possibly like some low hanging fruit for some new entrants to the sector. Anyone have ideas on why the new entrants aren't focusing on Quebec, or even why WJ has not? The Timmons example vs. Rouyn-Noranda is striking. It's interesting how there are fairly regular cases where firms avoid Quebec and first go after other parts of the country.

On another note, it's puzzling to me that the mayors are focused on government intervention instead of finding a free market solution, as the federal gov't is quoted as advocating for and which seems like the clear solution.

Air Canada has had such a strong monopoly on domestic routes that it can charge as much as it likes within any Province. WestJet has primarily focused on Western Canada for market supremacy. Porter has sort of been trying to do the same in Ontario. Saskatchewan has Transwest Air that operates in Northern Saskatchewan. Quebec just needs to get a Provincial upstart airline to make some competition in Quebec.
I don't think much will change nation wide until a third airline can operate from coast to coast. New Leaf/Flair originally had promise.

I'm flying Westjet from Saskatoon to Gatwick for $307 in March, for me to fly Saskatoon to Montreal would be $336 :???:
But honestly, this time of year most people in Sask will take advantage & fly to Phoenix for $213, or get on one of the cheap charters like SunWing to Caribbean/Mexico for dirt cheap.
It's all about demand in the market.

DDP Feb 5, 2018 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8072563)
A Quebec based airline is free to fly between which ever 2 points in Canada in chooses to go after. It's also free to fly anywhere in north America and beyond. Ireland's 5 million population didn't prevent it from developing one of the world's biggest airlines: Ryannair. Quebec's population is neither here nor there.

Ryannair can exist because it can serve the EU, not just Ireland. If North America was one big single market like the EU your comparison would make a lot more sense.

Really they need a Porter type airline to bring fares down, I think people forget how much Porter has helped bringing fares down in Northern cities to Toronto and beyond. Issue is can someone find a niche like Porter did in Toronto on the island.

Acajack Feb 5, 2018 5:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDP (Post 8073785)
Ryannair can exist because it can serve the EU, not just Ireland. If North America was one big single market like the EU your comparison would make a lot more sense.

.

Goode pointe.

Ireland - 4.5 million people gets access to EU - 500 million people

Quebec - 8 million people gets access to Canada - 35 million people (of which 8 million are in Quebec)

casper Feb 5, 2018 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDP (Post 8073785)
Ryannair can exist because it can serve the EU, not just Ireland. If North America was one big single market like the EU your comparison would make a lot more sense.

Really they need a Porter type airline to bring fares down, I think people forget how much Porter has helped bringing fares down in Northern cities to Toronto and beyond. Issue is can someone find a niche like Porter did in Toronto on the island.

There is nothing stopping someone from starting up a Ryanair type operation in Canada except a business cases that works. There have been a number of attempts over the year. They have all failed due to financial reasons, not government rules.

Canadian airlines are free to fly between any two points in Canada at what ever frequency they want.

There are a few airlines that focus on Quebec in additional to Air Canada. These include Air Creebec and Pascan Airlines.

thenoflyzone Feb 5, 2018 10:49 PM

ranking of North American airports based on full year international passenger figures for 2017 (except otherwise noted):

Standings extrapolated based on potential full year figures.

1. JFK 29.9 million (til Nov '17)
2. YYZ 25.04 million (til Oct '17)
3. LAX 24.8 million
4. MIA 21.5 million
5. CUN 15.79 million
6. MEX 15.75 million
7. PTY 15.6 million
8. SFO 13.4 million
9. EWR 11.8 million (til Nov '17)
10. ORD 11.5 million (til Nov '17)
11. YVR 12.4 million
12. ATL 12.03 million
13. YUL 11.2 million
14. IAH 10.3 million
15. DFW 8.5 million
16. FLL 7.18 million
17. BOS 7.16 million

Johnny Aussie Feb 6, 2018 6:14 AM

An abridged compilation of my comments in the YVR thread.

Seeing where YVR is on that list is just phenomenal. Especially considering all those US metro areas are over 6 million many with significant O&D and large business centres. In addition all of those US cities right down to DFW are fortress hubs for one or more of the US majors. Equally impressive though is YYZ's total just behind JFK and just that much larger than LAX!

Very impressive showing for YVR wedged in between ORD and ATL. Even at #11. Next year YVR will hit the top 10 most likely as it sneaks past ORD... Will have to see what happens in 12 months. 10 years ago I would never have imagined in a million years YVR’s international network or numbers would be this high.

YVR’s O&D will be growing with all those Chinese connections too!

isaidso Feb 6, 2018 12:15 PM

^^ Given how international traffic at YVR is growing it's not inconceivable to see YVR in 5th or 6th spot in 7-8 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDP (Post 8073785)
Ryannair can exist because it can serve the EU, not just Ireland. If North America was one big single market like the EU your comparison would make a lot more sense.

Really they need a Porter type airline to bring fares down, I think people forget how much Porter has helped bringing fares down in Northern cities to Toronto and beyond. Issue is can someone find a niche like Porter did in Toronto on the island.

Fair enough. Maybe Westjet is a better example then.

begratto Feb 6, 2018 4:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8074813)
^^ Given how international traffic at YVR is growing it's not inconceivable to see YVR in 5th or 6th spot in 7-8 years.

Isn't YVR's position a bit circumstancial though? High Asian immigration with links to the home country and older planes which limited the distance travelled economically made Vancouver a natural choice for a hub from Canada (and to a lesser extent North America) to Asia.

While immigration from Asia should remain high and will help YVR maintain excellent connectivity to Asia, the introduction of the 787 has caused an increase in the number of direct flights to Asia from cities in the east (ex: Mtl went from 0 to 3 daily, not to mention Toronto which has more and more flights to Asia). There will be less of a need to connect in Vancouver from anyone coming from the east. All in all, shouldn't this slow down the growth of int'l traffic in Vancouver?

What factors could cause YVR to jump to 5th or 6th spot?

Johnny Aussie Feb 6, 2018 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8074813)
^^ Given how international traffic at YVR is growing it's not inconceivable to see YVR in 5th or 6th spot in 7-8 years.

Not inconceivable but probably unlikely as those airports are growing too. Definitely #10 next year is likely though. Although handling as much as ORD seemed inconceivable.

The Dreamliner and A350 have been a boon to YVR opening routes to, for example: DEL, BNE, MEL, CDG, ZRH, TPE, XMN etc.... and with more in the pipeline. Most of these routes wouldn’t have been viable without the economics of the new age aircraft. So to places like CDG, ZRH, DEL and MEL used to require a connection. Not anymore.

Blader Feb 6, 2018 9:39 PM

New narrow bodies are also gaining range. I'm curious, given sufficient demand, whether YUL will see new routes to Francophie west Africa. I'm thinking thin, thin routes.

esquire Feb 6, 2018 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blader (Post 8075533)
New narrow bodies are also gaining range. I'm curious, given sufficient demand, whether YUL will see new routes to Francophie west Africa. I'm thinking thin, thin routes.

I didn't think it was possible but at 3,825 nm range for the 737 MAX 7, it certainly is.

A flight from Montreal to Dakar on a 737 would be something else... hell, you could reach London, Paris or Frankfurt straight from Winnipeg with that kind of range.

zahav Feb 6, 2018 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begratto (Post 8075030)
Isn't YVR's position a bit circumstancial though? High Asian immigration with links to the home country and older planes which limited the distance travelled economically made Vancouver a natural choice for a hub from Canada (and to a lesser extent North America) to Asia.

While immigration from Asia should remain high and will help YVR maintain excellent connectivity to Asia, the introduction of the 787 has caused an increase in the number of direct flights to Asia from cities in the east (ex: Mtl went from 0 to 3 daily, not to mention Toronto which has more and more flights to Asia). There will be less of a need to connect in Vancouver from anyone coming from the east. All in all, shouldn't this slow down the growth of int'l traffic in Vancouver?

What factors could cause YVR to jump to 5th or 6th spot?

I wouldn't say our position is circumstantial, and is not tied to high levels of immigration. In fact immigration from Asia is less now than it was in the 90s, and the very planes you mention have allowed YYZ to bypass YVR on many routes that used to have to connect in YVR (ie. ICN). The fact that YVRs huge growth came despite this show's it's not connected to any single factor. It is broad-based and encompasses many new routes and airlines.


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.