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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

ghYHZ Aug 18, 2018 3:27 PM

Nova Scotia has two airports with scheduled service: YHZ and YQY (Sydney) about 400km apart whereas in New Brunswick the airports with scheduled service are in relatively close proximity:

Moncton-Fredericton: 160 km
Moncton-Bathurst: 220 km
Moncton-Saint John: 150 km
Saint John-Fredericton: 100 km

Moncton would also serve northern Nova Scotia and Charlottetown is 160 km away.

Charlo (Campbellton) 60km from Bathurst also has scheduled service on PAL to Wabush and YHZ

zahav Aug 18, 2018 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse (Post 8285357)
And the direct flights are probably twice as expensive as the lowest priced options, and I tend to be, let's say, a "value oriented' flyer. So I probably just scrolled right past without even looking. ;)

Yes as I mentioned, there are limited YHZ-YVR non-stop summer flights, but not well timed for me at least (they are red eyes). Everything else is connected thru YYZ YUL or YOW. YYC benefist from being the main WS hub of course so they have more YHZ flights to connect from the YYC end in Western Canada. YVR and YHZ are both end of the line airports so YYC makes more sense as a domestic feeder. And the east coast airports proximity to the 3 main eastern connection airports mean they get limited service.

The distance of YVR-YHZ also works against it, otherwise I would honestly think it would be a good Rouge route. It is definitely a hole in one of ACs hubs, YVR is major for them yet don't have a single Maritime connection, it is a gap for sure

SignalHillHiker Aug 20, 2018 6:56 PM

Video showing the completed phase I of the expansion.

Video Link

JHikka Aug 20, 2018 7:34 PM

A good followup to the discussion on the previous page; YSJ is teasing an announcement that could be implying future direct flights to Boston.

TheGreatestX Aug 20, 2018 8:17 PM

Flair New Routes:

Edmonton-Las Vegas
Edmonton-Phoenix/Mesa
Edmonton-Palm Springs
Edmonton-Orlando
Edmonton-Miami
Winnipeg-Las Vegas
Winnipeg-Phoenix/Mesa
Winnipeg-Orlando
Winnipeg-St.Pete/Clearwater
Winnipeg-Miami
Toronto-Miami

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...691260501.html

lubicon Aug 21, 2018 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8284365)
Requoted for truth.

The hub and spoke model is great - as long as you live in a hub. :(

Moncton has been hard done by with the hub and spoke system. There is probably enough traffic to justify at least one flight to St. John's from Moncton a day, and possibly even Quebec City (with the Acadian population and Laval University). Instead, connections have to be made in Halifax or Montreal.

.......

Disagree. The hub and spoke model allows smaller centres much better options for flights. Typically there are multiple flights/day to the hub (and in Moncton's case to two hubs) allowing for much better connecting options - both destinations and times. Without hub and spoke the city would either be not serviced at all, or have perhaps a single flight to a couple of destinations per day and that's it - a much reduced level of service.

Coldrsx Aug 21, 2018 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX (Post 8287404)
Flair New Routes:

Edmonton-Las Vegas
Edmonton-Phoenix/Mesa
Edmonton-Palm Springs
Edmonton-Orlando
Edmonton-Miami
Winnipeg-Las Vegas
Winnipeg-Phoenix/Mesa
Winnipeg-Orlando
Winnipeg-St.Pete/Clearwater
Winnipeg-Miami
Toronto-Miami

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...691260501.html

Underserved markets getting served....excellent.:cheers::tup:

esquire Aug 21, 2018 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lubicon (Post 8288534)
Disagree. The hub and spoke model allows smaller centres much better options for flights. Typically there are multiple flights/day to the hub (and in Moncton's case to two hubs) allowing for much better connecting options - both destinations and times. Without hub and spoke the city would either be not serviced at all, or have perhaps a single flight to a couple of destinations per day and that's it - a much reduced level of service.

Hub and spoke is practical when it comes to everything except civic pride.

For most people who don't live in one of the major airline hub cities - YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, maybe even to some extent YHZ - the reality is that you are going to have to connect to get to most places. For instance, as a Winnipegger, I will have to connect to get to Europe unless I'm only willing to fly the 2x a week or whatever it is WestJet flight to London. Well, YYZ has a ton of options and it's only a couple hours away, with over a dozen flights a day heading there. Not really that bad. If I can't have a flight to Warsaw from YWG, then having one easily reachable in YYZ is a good consolation prize.

Of course, it's painful for the cities who miss the cut of being a hub city to not bask in the glow of having a wide range of transborder and international routes. Which is why, for instance, the Edmonton airport thread is basically one long litany of rage and resentment directed at YYC.

chris Aug 21, 2018 10:29 PM

What's going to happen with Red Deer YDF now that they're losing commercial air service?

someone123 Aug 21, 2018 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8288542)
Hub and spoke is practical when it comes to everything except civic pride.

For most people who don't live in one of the major airline hub cities - YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, maybe even to some extent YHZ - the reality is that you are going to have to connect to get to most places. For instance, as a Winnipegger, I will have to connect to get to Europe unless I'm only willing to fly the 2x a week or whatever it is WestJet flight to London. Well, YYZ has a ton of options and it's only a couple hours away, with over a dozen flights a day heading there. Not really that bad. If I can't have a flight to Warsaw from YWG, then having one easily reachable in YYZ is a good consolation prize.

Of course, it's painful for the cities who miss the cut of being a hub city to not bask in the glow of having a wide range of transborder and international routes. Which is why, for instance, the Edmonton airport thread is basically one long litany of rage and resentment directed at YYC.

In Moncton's case it's only a 2 hour 15 minute drive down to YHZ.

Many Maritimers will argue that they don't do this and instead fly to Toronto out of spite or because it is more convenient. That is fine but it makes me wonder how YHZ gets 4 million passengers a year while the second-place airport in the region is 650,000 or so. Either somebody's connecting or people in central NS fly a lot more than people in NB and PEI.

MonctonRad Aug 21, 2018 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8288860)
In Moncton's case it's only a 2 hour 15 minute drive down to YHZ.

Many Maritimers will argue that they don't do this and instead fly to Toronto out of spite or because it is more convenient. That is fine but it makes me wonder how YHZ gets 4 million passengers a year while the second-place airport in the region is 650,000 or so. Either somebody's connecting or people in central NS fly a lot more than people in NB and PEI.

I remain firm in my analysis that most NBers make their connections in Toronto and Montreal. The service is frequent (in Moncton's case 10x daily to Toronto), and on larger aircraft (Bombardier Q400 for the most part). Meanwhile Moncton to YHZ is only 4x daily and on small Beechcraft planes.

Halifax does have artificially inflated PAX numbers due to connecting passengers from Charlottetown, Sydney and St. John's. Halifax is also 3x larger than Moncton and is the sole airport for peninsular NS (about 800,000 people). The vast majority of air tourist traffic to the region is also through YHZ, as well as business traffic to Halifax.

I'm not surprised by the difference in PAX between YQM and YHZ at all.

The trouble with hub and spoke for cities like Moncton is that it serves as an impediment to business growth. If a company wants to establish a Maritime subsidiary or branch office, they will be much more likely to consider Halifax over places like Moncton just because of the accessibility of business travel. This is especially true for American companies.

someone123 Aug 21, 2018 11:05 PM

I'm not sure what people in Moncton do for their air travel but it's not surprising that there aren't a ton of Moncton-Halifax flights when it takes about the same amount of time to drive.

Cage Aug 21, 2018 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8285750)
The distance of YVR-YHZ also works against it, otherwise I would honestly think it would be a good Rouge route. It is definitely a hole in one of ACs hubs, YVR is major for them yet don't have a single Maritime connection, it is a gap for sure

Distance combined with numerous one-stop connections through YYZ, YUL, and YOW are the reasons for no YVR-YHZ. For example:
- A one stop through YYZ will give the business class traveler options for lie flat seat normally reserved for international flying.
- A connection through YOW can be quite cheap if Parliament is not in session.
- seats are cheaper in the back end as travelers to/from other destinations can be handled to fill up the rest of the plane. There are limited connecting options at the YHZ end. YVR connections have Asian, however a big chunk of the trip will be in narrowbody aircraft (see Business Class seats above) for a lot longer compared to connection is YYZ or YUL.

Rouge is not viable option due to the seat configuration YVR-YHZ on the 319 is seat restricted by 5-10 seats on the mainline configuration. The rouge configuration has 20 more economy seats, so a 30 seat restriction is too much for the economics.

stephan.richard Aug 22, 2018 4:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8288911)
I'm not sure what people in Moncton do for their air travel but it's not surprising that there aren't a ton of Moncton-Halifax flights when it takes about the same amount of time to drive.

What do the folks from Moncton do is do the bulk of their Connections in Toronto or Montreal and the odd time in Ottawa. I feel that the Province of New Brunswick is deeply undeserved by the airlines and what needs to be done is to reduce some of the services from the other airports in New Brunswick and funnel them through Moncton. I look at the province of Nova Scotia where Halifax doesnt have to compete with Sydney and the reverse.

Hali87 Aug 22, 2018 5:05 AM

I think what it comes down to is that it's common for Canadians from most parts of the country to have to make some kind of connection for most long-distance flights. As it's been like this my entire life, I don't really see this as a huge deal. What's most important is access to major hubs (such as YYZ).

This does kind of break down in some situations - having to "backtrack" to YYZ from Moncton (for example) to get to points further east in some cases. I'm not sure that a lack of direct flights to non-hub destinations indicates a "lack of service" though.

I do agree that having 1 or 2 airports with scheduled service (rather than 5) might have been a more efficient/"effective" way to go for NB (if the goal is to maximize the number of direct-flight destinations), but the way that NB's population is distributed (and the fact that Moncton is quite close to YHZ, as noted) makes me wonder where these 1 or 2 airports would have been best located. Maybe in the middle of the southern triangle, and somewhere in northern NB?

someone123 Aug 22, 2018 5:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hali87 (Post 8289228)
This does kind of break down in some situations - having to "backtrack" to YYZ from Moncton (for example) to get to points further east in some cases. I'm not sure that a lack of direct flights to non-hub destinations indicates a "lack of service" though.

I'm not sure what lack of service means. I'd just frame it in terms of what is economical and what might be economical under other scenarios.

Right now Toronto has regular direct flights to places like Tokyo. If people couldn't fly from Moncton to Toronto there wouldn't suddenly be lots of direct flights to Tokyo out of Moncton; they just wouldn't be offered. Given that reality, people in Moncton are better off with good connections to Toronto so they can get more convenient Tokyo flights.

There are some structural aspects of the industry in Canada that probably do hurt air travel. For example, there is a high barrier to entry for new airlines. The fact is that AC and WJ sometimes engage in predatory pricing and foreign airlines can't fly between Canadian cities. Pearson is in a quasi-monopoly position under this system and the airport has sometimes exploited this fact by charging some of the highest landing fees in the world (at times #1 in the whole world). This drives up costs, which means less air travel and less variety of service.

MonctonRad Aug 22, 2018 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8289233)
Right now Toronto has regular direct flights to places like Tokyo. If people couldn't fly from Moncton to Toronto there wouldn't suddenly be lots of direct flights to Tokyo out of Moncton; they just wouldn't be offered. Given that reality, people in Moncton are better off with good connections to Toronto so they can get more convenient Tokyo flights.

To be clear, I don't think anybody in Moncton has unreasonable expectations out of their airport.

I think the issue can be boiled down to this - Why is it that even regional air travel has to funneled through a hub?

I believe a reasonable case can be made for a direct flight from Moncton to St. John's NL. Even Newfoundlanders are lobbying for this. Why is it that there are no flights from Moncton to NL but multiple flights from Halifax to NL?

Reasonable cases can also be made for flights to Quebec City and Boston and/or NYC. Again, relatively short distance flights to major airports are blocked by the hub and spoke system.

If CYQM could add St. John's, Quebec City and Boston and/or NYC to our existing list of regularly scheduled and sun destinations, I think everyone would be happy.

SignalHillHiker Aug 22, 2018 11:54 AM

I just hate connecting because it's in the wrong direction. If I have to fly to Toronto to catch a connection to Dublin, that more that kills an entire day for what should really be a quick, four-hour flight for me if they would just put one plane down in St. John's on its way over. Hub and spoke obviously works but it can impose an incredible burden in cost and time - even for an airport basically all flights across the North Atlantic pass over.

At least we have some affordable, direct flights to Europe now. I don't know where they originate from on the mainland but there's always people already aboard when it lands in St. John's. So that's all I wanted - just put a plane down so I don't have to fly half a continent in the wrong direction to get to Europe. I don't care if it's only once a week - I'll schedule my vacations around it. Just don't make me go a day out of my way.

MonctonRad Aug 22, 2018 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker (Post 8289330)
I just hate connecting because it's in the wrong direction. If I have to fly to Toronto to catch a connection to Dublin, that more that kills an entire day for what should really be a quick, four-hour flight for me if they would just put one plane down in St. John's on its way over. Hub and spoke obviously works but it can impose an incredible burden in cost and time - even for an airport basically all flights across the North Atlantic pass over.

At least we have some affordable, direct flights to Europe now. I don't know where they originate from on the mainland but there's always people already aboard when it lands in St. John's. So that's all I wanted - just put a plane down so I don't have to fly half a continent in the wrong direction to get to Europe. I don't care if it's only once a week - I'll schedule my vacations around it. Just don't make me go a day out of my way.

Agree 100%

Back in the old days of EPA (Eastern Provincial Airways), they had milk run routes (sort of the antithesis of hub and spoke). They would have routes like Sydney -> Charlottetown -> Moncton -> Fredericton. It meant a lot of taking off and landing, but at least you kept your seat, knew that your checked bag was accompanying you, and didn't waste hours in a boring hub airport waiting for connections.

In the early days of WestJet service out of Moncton, they had one stop service to the west via Hamilton. I clearly remember boarding a 737 in Moncton, making a short station stop in Hamilton and then continuing on (in the same equipment, in the same seat) to my terminal destination in Edmonton. It was great!!!

Now to do the same, I have to take an Encore Q400 to Pearson and make connections to 737 service to Edmonton (all the while wondering exactly which foreign airport my checked baggage is heading). :rolleyes:

SignalHillHiker Aug 22, 2018 12:21 PM

Yeah reasonable connections don't bother me, even if I have to change planes. St. John's to Boston via Montreal is fine. St. John's to basically anywhere in North America via Toronto is fine. Etc. Sometimes I even enjoy a couple hours layover - especially with a drink hehe.


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