DENVER | Transportation Thread
I havent heard anything about the light rail in a while. Any updates? When will things start rolling for the westward lines and union station?
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They have Billions of dollars and until 2017 / 2018? It's been almost 2 years already and not a damn thing yet!!!
I'd say maybe in 2010 you "MIGHT" see something start up? "MIGHT" being the Key word. :notacrook: GOD I wish Union Staion Partners would have been the chosen team, this is one of the most frustrating things taking place in this City. Or lack there of! It's a damn good thing there is 15+ Cranes in the City other wise I guarantee you every Denver forumer would be BITCHING about Union Station Daily!!! :hell: |
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They have been doing quite a bit work in the past two years, but it is not neccessiraly all visible work to you and I.
West corridor: • In early 2007, the West Corridor project team conducted an internal Value Engineering (VE) exercise to look at ways the project could be more efficient and cost-effective. As a result, FTA requested that an Environmental Assessment (EA) be completed to fully identify and document any impacts of VE. • By July 2007, final design reached 65 percent. • In summer 2007, removal of the old rail along the corridor was completed and utility relocation began. • RTD issued a Draft EA for public comment in fall 2007. A Finding of No Signifi cant Impact decision from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) was received in November 2007, with the Final EA issued in late 2007. • Major construction is scheduled to begin in summer 2008 with the line opening in 2013. (There was an article in the Post regarding the Kipling Street Light Rail bridge as one of the first to get underway) Union Station: Work is still being done on the Environmental Impact Statement and is expected to be complete this Fall. The last I heard is that visible work will begin late Fall or ealry next Spring. Lastly, the RFQ has been issued for all of the landscape/streetscape work. |
There is also a large presentation posted on www.denverunionstation.org with some new renderings of the future station and build out of surounding lots.
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I Stand Corrected!!!
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An interesting tidbit....
Just found out the plan to replace RTD's biggest bus garage, Platte Division... with its 500 plus buses, with the Commuter Rail Division, including maintenence (looks like this operation will be privitized). The RTD District Shops & Dispatch would stay where it is and RTD would build two medium sized bus garages, one on I-76 west of I-25. Although it is not a done deal, there is talk of Light Rail going north via The Denargo Market. There is no exact time table in place.
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Thought I saw on the news a while ago somewhere out west they were relocating utilities at a location where they were going to lay track and somebody hit a water main and it flooded a man's house
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RTD can't do anything about the timeliness of the studies b/c the federal government requires heavily intense environmental planning on all funded projects. Yes it is politics, but much of it is political because of the past - transportation projects that damaged the environment, killed wildlife habitat, destroyed historic structures & made negative social impacts on minorities & economically depressed areas. It's a pain - but it's better to get it done right the first time.
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Or, perhaps they are people like me (although I'm not contractually involved in any aspect of the DUS project) who are passionate about urban planning and development and who are trying to do the best they can with an incredibly exciting yet challenging project that was underfunded from the get-go by a couple hundred million dollars and that then experienced unprecedented construction cost increases and unexpected rulings from government agencies that created a massively complex engineering/financial puzzle that was finally solved only a few months ago and is now working toward actual design and construction, pending, of course, all of the necessary local, state, and federal regulatory hurdles that need to be addressed, public involvement expectations, pressures from labor and other special interest groups, a national recession, uncertain real estate markets, and fucked-up financial markets. |
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The only thing I'm not sure about is how much of this delay is a result of the federal funding deal. |
I wonder how much money developers and property owners of the area surrounding union station would be willing to pay towards the light rail project and union station redevelopment if those puny height restrictions would be removed.
I still can't believe that a majority of the area surrounding the transportation hub of Denver will be limited to 20 stories. |
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Hey Ken, what is your opinion on this giant hole over the train shed where people wait for their trains? I'm seeing the pictures but I don't get it. If the answer is: well we have a view plane, then the view plane has got to go. If the other answer is: we have some little coverings, I still don't get it. This is supposed to be the center of the transit system with thousands and thousands passing through every day right? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Your illumination would be appreciated.
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I actually like what they've done with everything else. I didn't at first, but I have studied the plans in detail and have found them to be a very efficient and effective design which will be a success. |
The new diagrams make it look like a european style canopy with no hole. Check out the site HigherHigher mentions a few posts back.
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At the last EIS BOG meeting I attended, they specifically said the canopy is a placeholder only. It has not been designed, but they need to show something in the renderings otherwise people will say "what, aren't you going to have any shelter/protection out there?". Plus they also had to have something to put in the line item in the budget.
RTD has a requirement that a certain percentage (I think it's 40% or something like that) of the platform area have shelter. The view plane is also an issue. Directly in the center of the station in line with the big windows is likely to be no canopy at all. There seems to be a very strong desire in the community to not block the view of the station from down 17th Street. The Union Station project isn't really "delayed" that much anyway. If you look in the original FasTracks plan, there was several years put in place for all that has or is yet to transpire: selection of the master developer, refinement of the plan, completing the EIS, costing out and doing the design, then at least four years of construction. Keep in mind that under the current timetable, the commuter rail station will be completed for at least two years before the first commuter rail train arrives. |
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I hadn't actually had any impression that any of the projects were delayed at all. I didn't expect to see any real construction until the end of this year. I thought there ware several years lead time built into this.
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I think the moral of this story is that one shouldn't post when in a drunken stupor...
Aaron (Glowrock) |
I don't think anybody is sitting around deliberately twiddling their thumbs. The rail lines themselves are much larger, longer, and more complicated construction projects than single site buildings. I'm sure it's true that Union Station is extremely complicated in its design. But even if they had a design ready two years ago, I wouldn't have expected to see construction yet. FasTracks and the rail passengers it brings is the heart and soul of the development. There would be no reason to start on the project right now, they're trying to time its completion with the opening of the first rail line.
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and glowrock, it was posted in my "need to be lucid since i'm an engineer in the private sector" mentality. nothing drunk about my rant at all. |
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I think it's simply a vocal minority which wants a big whole in the canopy so they can see Union Station in it's entirety from 17th Street. I think the non-vocial majority -- which doesn't bother wasting their time going to meetings and expressing their opinions or even bother keeping up with this project in anyway -- would rather be sheltered fully (100%, not 40%) from the elements while waiting on the commuter rail platforms.
Perhaps this will encourage some people to actually use the historical Union Station to wait (as it was once used)? Also, perhaps when it's all designed and built, maybe it will look great and function adequately? The best thing is to wait and see. It's beyond our control, so we have to embrace whatever is designed. It does little good to complain to one another about it. I have tried writing the proper channels and am just ignored. In the end, the only good idea, is an idea that satisfies the vocal minority. |
My firm has been working on some of the legal aspects of this project, and I can assure you that everyone is working very hard, and that people have done some great work to overcome what seems like one obstacle after another.
And yes, when you deal with government and federal funds, everything is about 100 times more complicated and takes ten times as long. Any CYA mentality that is present in the private sector must be taken to laughable extremes when dealing with public money. People looooove launching lawsuits at these kind of projects. |
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There isn't a hole in the canopy now....check last page |
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NEPA is a good thing. And the fact that EISs take so long is (somewhat) intentional. If this were a highway project through environmentally sensitive lands, you'd be damn happy it takes this long, because it would take you time to mobilize the opposition, and you'd be happy they were putting real time into studying it and pre-engineering it as well. As a matter of fact, if you lived along the West Corridor in Lakewood, you'd be damn happy the EIS takes two years, and you'd probably be trying to slow it down. You wouldn't give two sh*ts about "seeing construction start" - you'd want to make sure that the designers and planners of the project are taking all of the environmental (natural *and* human) consequences into account, and you'd want to be sure they are doing everything they can to minimize them. What you have to understand about an EIS is that it's not really about the final report, it's about the process. And it *is* a deliberate process. And the alternative is much, much worse (at least from the enviormental standpioint). I'm not sure I would mind terribly if we went back to the "good 'ole days" of Robert Moseses ramming projects down peoples throats; of highways tearing out whole neighborhoods, and whole cities for that matter; and of filling in mile after mile of wetlands for the next subdivision - all without any review process. Just remember, without this horrible, horrible government process, for every Fastracks project that gets done faster, you'd have three projects that you *hate* moving right along as well. Ask the folks in Clear Creek County if they'd be willing to forgo the process to speed up I-70 improvements. I *dare* you to... |
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Like many others here, I wish the other proposal would have won the bid for the Station, but I don't prescribe to the notion that if E/W wasn't in charge of the project that everything would be smooth sailing, or even noticeably different. |
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Who PAYS
My question is , does anyone in Denver pay to ride light rail ? I have been riding from Clear Creek and see little to no one buying fares.
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I would definitely concur with Buntie. The alternative is what I witnessed in Florida, where the Corps of Engineers barely considers a project before it slaps down a FONSI for some 2,000 acre development in the middle of wetlands. Because, you know, there's a housing shortage in Florida and all. If you don't have a careful and deliberate process that seeks input, you end up with new airport runways that send planes within a hundred yards of your bedroom window.
/off-topic and bitter |
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This is why so few projects (public or private) allow very much transparency into the process. Projects are complicated, this project is INCREDIBLY so. Having attended a few USAC meetings and break-out sessions I'm impressed by what they've done so far. They are about 6 months delayed at this point, as that is the length of time it took to work out the significant cost overruns (there where also issues with getting the paperwork in place for the actual money to start flowing).
Look at Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn or the freedom tower project. Those projects are extremely complex and have gone through incredibly long design and vetting processes. This one is no different. Development takes time, and very rarely does the public get to see so clearly into the process. Its frustrating, but details that armchair QB's like us hand-wave around have very lasting and meaningful impacts when your actually designing the thing. Much less something that has to withstand the population and transit growth this area will see for the next 100 years. |
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this project is awesome...scope, scale, impact - it's going to be amazing. though i agree that we will rue the height limits in the CPV once there are 100k people getting off the trains each day.
that said - the major mistake is connecting the north side of lodo to the rest of the CPV. when the 18th street connection was yanked, we lost quite a bit.... buntie i'm not sure i'm with you on the reasoning behind the lenghty EIS these days. from the meetings i've been to it seems that the purpose is very CYA - "we listened to you and gave everybody a chance to do it, but here is how it's going to be done". changes enacted by citizens at meetins is VERY minor. one outstanding example, unfortunately, would be the folks along Welton pushing away double track to 40th / 40th...and also pushing away trains direclty going to jobs in the W, SE and SW. Why? somebody stated emphatically that Downing street would lose "important historical buildings" if the loop was completed. i've walked it and driven it many times....there is not a SINGLE contributing / registered building along the route, but RTD let it die on the vine and we're left with an uncertain single-car light rail solution. what did we lose? the creation of a major north station at 40/40...system flexibility with routing on a loop...billions in development potential...all based on a BS historical claim. |
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You ever think that maybe democracies are at an inherent disadvantage in responding quickly to serious problems? (or in responding at all, if the problems are slow in coming... like the frog in slowly-heated water?) The only time anything gets done that really works or happens quickly is with "strong leadership" (which is a synonym for "cram it down your throat" - i don't buy the "convince the people they want it" leadership theory - it's just cramming). Our system is *built* for NIMBYism, as much as we here all decry it. |
it's a great question....
i'd advocate that the pendulum has swung much too far away from strong leadership toward too many people (and non-experts) contributing toward decisions. we dont want dictators, but we also elect people (including RTD board) to represent us and MAKE decisions...the EIS / NEPA process is like saying "we don't know, let's have a few thousand people help us make a decison"...instead of haivng elected leaders make them and move forward. if we dont like their decisions? well, elections are more frequent then record-of-decisions it seems. i cant tell you how many times RTD employees, in casual conversations, have stated that they know how to build the best system, but are not allowed to move forward (keep in mind these are trained, experienced, transit experts...not elected, but they deserve some more slack on the line.) |
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What the hell???
Myshtern, FasTracks was approved in 2004, long after 9/11. What the hell are you talking about? Aaron (Glowrock) |
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myshtern - when i talk about "too many non-experts contrbuting to a decision" i'm actually referring to the general public.
too many little old ladies...too many small-city-thinkers...too many 'change is bad' folks...they ahve the capacity to ruin our transit SYSTEM as we saw with kiling double-trackign up downing to create anurban loop (we have much too much of a line-by-line approach). i'm all for a heavIER handed RTD - but that requries a blank check, and the feds require the EIS process...so, we're a bit stuck. bcp |
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you are 100% correct in this assessment here. not to mention, they have a SERIOUS mental-mindblock in that they don't understand how to do tasks in parallel and efficiently manage a workforce. they most likely care about what they're doing, they're just very inept at actually doing it. more people from the private sector should be head-hunted and brought into the gov't system as high-level management. i assure you shit will get done then. today's model is too much wait for a decision before waiting for another one and hardly any streamlining/parallel processes going on. someone educate RTD's upper management on 21st century business practices...this isn't the days where you could sit back and wait forever for things to funnel through. you'll get absolutely KILLED (as the current 1.5 billion over cost already) in overhead if you're not the aggressor in the process. |
I am going back to an earlier part of the thread for a bit because it's eaten at me for a couple days...
You know I really resent that the "these people are good intentioned" was even allowed to get brought into the arguement. Of COURSE they are good intentioned. No one here imagines that all the workers are handle-bar-moustache-twisting-cape-wearing-mincing dark lords bent on destroying all of RTD's well meaning plans. However, I NEVER ever learned in school that good intentions=good design. But now I have to be VERY careful if I want to vent about something because I might hurt the designers' feelings. I can't stand that 16th is going to be open to cars.. can't say that though because the decision came from good intentions. I don't like that the plan has become a smear across the CPV instead of a central, focal station. Can't say that either.. because those changes came from good intentions as well. Other things I'ver really not liked about this whole process..they are all invalid now because everything I don't like came from good intentions. Some people on here have written and written and written RTD and the people who are responsible for the planning of this project. Some have spent many many hours working on their own ideas, presented them here, revised them and waited patiently for responses that never came. Now they are reduced to just saying we have to wait and see because my input has been ignored. When someone vents that the people appear to 'not give two shits' about the process I think that's perfectly valid in this case. So is nearly all of the venting about the plethora of changes that have come since the plan passed in the first place. Is it going to change anything? On here of course not.. nothing does really. All of our cheering on of Tabor II, Spire, 4S and everything else doesn't change their design or get them to rise faster either, yet here we all are. Of course the designers and engineers and planners and other people who are working on Union Station and Fastracks in general ACTUALLY care, and of COURSE they are well meaning, probably well trained, good people who don't piss on the Union Station Master plan before leaving at night to go home and have a dinner of roasted babies. However, the companies that are their bosses are still, in my opinion (which aparently I have to add now all the time too because it's not understood that EVERYTHING on here is opinion) suspect. I just don't think you can gloss over the fact that E/W was granted a near monopoly on development in that part of downtown and they should be watched MUCH more closely than it seems like they have. And if they are good businesspeople then they really ought to press the advantage as far as they can. As far as I've seen the city and RTD have not done enough asking if whats good for E/W is good for the city. (just again - my opinion - and I'm sorry if the CEO's of E/W are crying right now because I know.. they are basically all good people). |
its worse than you think...
RTD brings in transit / planning experts (Parsons Binkheroff and many others) to run the show....these experts and then caught between knowing how to do a great system and being marginalized by: - line-by-line in-fighting - limited budget - having to listen to excessive community input |
bravo giovani....
instead of "watching" E/W....some natural, market-driven competition would have worked just find (and required zero additional gov't oversight) |
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The whole union station design seems to be fudged to me, simply because of the horrible zoning surrounding it and the construction shouldnt take more than a year. While laying down the rail should have been done with an army of negotiators spread in each direction of the line for property followed by an army of laborers laying down rail. We can make this as complicated as we want and draw out the process for 30 years. If we want to get things done, things need to be broken down in the simple segments and attacked with an overwhelming force. Like I said though, I dont know what's necessary for the federal funding. I may seem rudimentary but let's not make anything overly complex in our heads, we're building a freaking railroad. |
Keep in mind, Myshtern, that it's just not light rail. It's also a huge (900' long) fully underground 22-bay bus terminal, 8 commuter rail tracks and platforms (partially depressed to allow for at-grade boarding), a big public parking garage, Mall Shuttle and Downtown Circulator lanes/stops, renovation of the historic station, a massive amount of utility relocation/reconstruction work, a hugh stormwater drainage project, acres of public spaces/plazas, etc., rebuilding every street in the vicinity, and over a million square feet of office/residential/hotel development. The fact that all of that is scheduled to be built in 4 years is quite an accomplishment. This is on par with DIA or TREX.
Yay!! Post # 2,000!! :banana: |
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