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whatnext Jul 20, 2022 8:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX (Post 9679998)
Wow, six airlines on the YYZ-YWG route.

Air Canada
WestJet
Swoop
Flair
Lynx
Canada Jetlines

Anybody who thinks that is sustainable is delusional.

whatnext Jul 20, 2022 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9680653)
I feel like it's a blood bath with so much extra capacity coming on. There's going to be a casualty, we are basically in a situation of way more carriers than we need and high fuel costs/inflation. Isn't a good recipe. I could see us retrenching into a duopoly+one or two others at some point again

The danger is the fly-by-night carriers and those with questionable ownership damage the remaining carriers and you end up with nobody able to turn a profit.

hemustbeaboss Jul 20, 2022 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX (Post 9679998)
Wow, six airlines on the YYZ-YWG route.

Air Canada
WestJet
Swoop
Flair
Lynx
Canada Jetlines

I'd wager Porter will also announce this route out of YYZ as part of the initial E2 startup plan. That is way too much service..

Dominion301 Jul 21, 2022 12:52 AM

YOW's June pax stats are out. YOW hit 70.9% of 2019 traffic levels in May. This is +10.4% vs May, but still lags well behind other airports thanks to a lack of capacity:

Sector / Jun-21 / Jun-22 / % Change
Dom: 44,837 / 283,120 / +531.4%
TB: 0 / 14,639 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 44,837 / 297,759 / +564.1%

Sector / YTD 2021 / YTD 2022 / % Change
Dom: 162,263 / 1,079,918 / +565.5%
TB: 0 / 63,204 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 42,722 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 162,263 / 1,185,844 / 630.8%

Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / May-21 / Jun-21 / % Change
Dom: 247,060 / 283,120 / +14.6%
TB: 15,534 / 14,639 / -5.8%
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 262,594 / 297,759 / +13.4% - the June 2022 pax total is roughly the same as June 1996
Avg/Day: 8,471 / 9,925 / +17.2%

YOW's back over 2 million pax served in the past 12 months:

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2020
Dom: 2,061,605 / +99.8%
TB: 74,446 / -54.4%
Int'l: 58,319 / -65.4%
TTL: 2,194,370 / +60.9% - back up to about 1981 pax traffic levels - but unlike 1981 with zero transatlantic service

SpongeG Jul 21, 2022 12:57 AM

where does Lynx fly?
Cause at YVR their check-in desk is in the International departures desks area.

Dominion301 Jul 21, 2022 1:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9679975)
Jetlines Starts Ticket Sales

First Flight Departs August 15th, schedule out till October 31st.

YYZ-YWG - 5x Weekly (M,T,W,T,F) Fares from $185 One Way
YYZ-YQM - 5x Weekly (M,T,W,T,F) Fares from $136 One Way

The cheaper fares were found in September/October. Summer time fares are $200+. I can't tell if carry-ons are permitted.

It's interesting how you can only go YQM-YWG on days 24 and YWG-YQM on days 135. They clearly at this juncture don't want an RONs outside of the YYZ base. What's also really interesting in the long YWG and YQM turnaround times. This is the most cautious start I've ever seen. I guess they want to make a good first impression with their sole 320 despite the poor utilization and O&D reliance to/from YYZ on 5/10 outstation departures per week.

Fares are most definitely not ULCC rates at this juncture.

thenoflyzone Jul 21, 2022 2:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX (Post 9679998)
Wow, six airlines on the YYZ-YWG route.

Air Canada
WestJet
Swoop
Flair
Lynx
Canada Jetlines

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9681297)
Anybody who thinks that is sustainable is delusional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemustbeaboss (Post 9681514)
That is way too much service..

Yes, looking at it from a pure airline number perspective, 6 airlines does, and is, too many. But, you need to dig a bit deeper, and when you do, you realize it's not that big of a deal. At least not yet.

Like I said, on the surface, it seems like 3x more airlines are flying the route compared to a few years ago, when it was only AC and WS. But......

1. WestJet and Swoop aren't competing against each other. WestJet owns Swoop, and so their schedules should be seen as complementary, not competitive. This means it's actually 5 airlines competing against each other, not 6.

2. Looking at the schedules for the next few weeks...

AC has the bulk of capacity on the route. 6 daily flights, all on A320s. That's 42 weekly flights on YYZ-YWG.
WS comes in second, with 4 dailies during the week and 3 dailies on the weekend. Swoop is 1x daily. So WS/W0 combined are at 33x weekly.
Frequency (and therefore capacity) falls off a cliff after these two. Lynx is 2x weekly. Flair is 12x weekly and Jetlines will be 5x weekly. Combined, these 3 will account for 19x weekly.

So, AC, WS and WO, between them, have 75 weekly flights between YYZ and YWG. The 3 new entrants will bring in 19x weekly. That's only a 25% increase in flights. So what seemed initially as a 300% increase in airlines on the route, turns out to be only a 25% increase in flights. And a bit more in terms of seats, considering these ULCCs have denser cabins than AC or WS.

Still, very manageable, for now.

Also, we are currently in peak summer. A goose with a lawn chair strapped to it's back can make money flying between YYZ and YWG right now. It will be a whole different story come October.

casper Jul 21, 2022 2:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9681572)
It's interesting how you can only go YQM-YWG on days 24 and YWG-YQM on days 135. They clearly at this juncture don't want an RONs outside of the YYZ base. What's also really interesting in the long YWG and YQM turnaround times. This is the most cautious start I've ever seen. I guess they want to make a good first impression with their sole 320 despite the poor utilization and O&D reliance to/from YYZ on 5/10 outstation departures per week.

Fares are most definitely not ULCC rates at this juncture.

Interesting. I am impressed. Maybe there is hope for these guys.

The ULCC that have multi-hour long delays need to be punished for their behaviour. A flyers bill of right that forces them to re-accommodate on the competition for any significant delay is critical to ensuring they have to pay for their poor behaviour. That will cause the bottom fares to go up a little bit and help reward the well behaved airlines.

Coldrsx Jul 21, 2022 3:06 PM

Are we about to see a Flair Up? *I will be here all week.

FARNBOROUGH, United Kingdom, July 19, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing [NYSE:BA] and 777 Partners today announced a new order and commitment for up to 66 737 MAX jets, including a firm order for 30 ultra-efficient, high-capacity 737-8-200s. This is the U.S. investment firm's fifth order for the industry's most fuel-efficient jet in its class, rapidly building its portfolio to as many as 134 737 MAXs since 2021. The two companies announced the order with a signing ceremony at the Farnborough International Airshow.

777 Partners has used the 737 MAX to launch a number of low-cost carriers around the world, with more to follow. Currently, its investments include Flair Airlines, Canada's only independent ultra-low-cost carrier, and Bonza Airline, an Australian start-up that will launch operations this year. The investment firm has earmarked the 737-8-200, which accommodates more than 200 passengers, to grow operations by increasing revenue potential while reducing carbon emissions, fuel consumption and operating costs.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-07...Efficient-Jets

Zmonkey Jul 21, 2022 9:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9681606)
Yes, looking at it from a pure airline number perspective, 6 airlines does, and is, too many. But, you need to dig a bit deeper, and when you do, you realize it's not that big of a deal. At least not yet.

Like I said, on the surface, it seems like 3x more airlines are flying the route compared to a few years ago, when it was only AC and WS. But......

1. WestJet and Swoop aren't competing against each other. WestJet owns Swoop, and so their schedules should be seen as complementary, not competitive. This means it's actually 5 airlines competing against each other, not 6.

2. Looking at the schedules for the next few weeks...

AC has the bulk of capacity on the route. 6 daily flights, all on A320s. That's 42 weekly flights on YYZ-YWG.
WS comes in second, with 4 dailies during the week and 3 dailies on the weekend. Swoop is 1x daily. So WS/W0 combined are at 33x weekly.
Frequency (and therefore capacity) falls off a cliff after these two. Lynx is 2x weekly. Flair is 12x weekly and Jetlines will be 5x weekly. Combined, these 3 will account for 19x weekly.

So, AC, WS and WO, between them, have 75 weekly flights between YYZ and YWG. The 3 new entrants will bring in 19x weekly. That's only a 25% increase in flights. So what seemed initially as a 300% increase in airlines on the route, turns out to be only a 25% increase in flights. And a bit more in terms of seats, considering these ULCCs have denser cabins than AC or WS.

Still, very manageable, for now.

Also, we are currently in peak summer. A goose with a lawn chair strapped to it's back can make money flying between YYZ and YWG right now. It will be a whole different story come October.

AC is also connecting a large portion of those people too.

Coldrsx Jul 21, 2022 9:57 PM

Up to a $100mil (300 total) federal investment in an international cargo hub for YEG?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYNFdJZW...pg&name=medium
https://twitter.com/FlyEIA/status/15...9564%2Fpage-44

J81 Jul 21, 2022 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9681607)
Interesting. I am impressed. Maybe there is hope for these guys.

The ULCC that have multi-hour long delays need to be punished for their behaviour. A flyers bill of right that forces them to re-accommodate on the competition for any significant delay is critical to ensuring they have to pay for their poor behaviour. That will cause the bottom fares to go up a little bit and help reward the well behaved airlines.

Name a well behaved airline!? Ill wait.

Dominion301 Jul 21, 2022 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 9682439)
Name a well behaved airline!? Ill wait.

Air North. Canadian North. :notacrook:

casper Jul 22, 2022 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 9682439)
Name a well behaved airline!? Ill wait.

I will second that ^. Air North and Canadian North. Pacific Costal also qualifies.

I am reluctant to include WestJet and Air Canada. They are close to well behaved, but could also use of regularly encouragement. They just need to be hit with a hammer.

Swoop and Fair need the sledgehammer treatment.

There are stories floating around that the WestJet airport staff in Vancouver and Calgary may be going on strike. Apparently their current contract has starting ways below BC minimum wages.

Ok, maybe WestJet could use a light sledgehammer.

J81 Jul 22, 2022 2:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9682582)
I will second that ^. Air North and Canadian North. Pacific Costal also qualifies.

I am reluctant to include WestJet and Air Canada. They are close to well behaved, but could also use of regularly encouragement. They just need to be hit with a hammer.

Swoop and Fair need the sledgehammer treatment.

There are stories floating around that the WestJet airport staff in Vancouver and Calgary may be going on strike. Apparently their current contract has starting ways below BC minimum wages.

Ok, maybe WestJet could use a light sledgehammer.

Touche. I have no experience with either of those carriers as they serve a mostly niche market. I guess Porter could be on that list as well. Ive always had good experiences with them. As far as im concerned AC, WJ, Swoop and Flair all need a sledgehammer treatment.

Coldrsx Jul 22, 2022 3:10 PM

YEG - apparently that '100mil' will be to develop 2000 acres ie. Port Alberta to create a logistics, storage, apron and cargo infrastructure base.

Airboy Jul 22, 2022 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9682484)
Air North. Canadian North. :notacrook:

Yup Air North, Been on it 3 times this year and again next week. And not to expensive. The fresh cookies are always good as well.

Airboy Jul 22, 2022 4:26 PM

The current travel environment.
First book a rental. Then a hotel, then the flight. At least that is the way I have been doing it.

I know my next few trips and have a car lined up each time. and depending on the community hotels are easier to find. Flights I try to book no less than two weeks out.

Coldrsx Jul 22, 2022 7:18 PM

Guten tag Germany! Starting May 26, 2023, Condor Flugdienst GmbH will offer non-stop seasonal summer air service between #YEG and Frankfurt, Germany.  We’re thrilled to welcome Condor to Edmonton! In conjunction with their partners, Condor's network opens many travel opportunities for the Edmonton Metro Region, not just to visit Frankfurt, but to connect through Frankfurt to other destinations throughout Europe. Plus, an excellent opportunity to connect European tourists to our local and regional gems. To start planning your next vacation, visit the flyeia.com/Frankfurt

ninjakafi_81 Jul 22, 2022 11:14 PM

Air Canada and United Airlines Expand Relationship to Make Transborder Travel Easier, With More Choice

Quote:

MONTREAL, July 22, 2022 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada and United Airlines today announced a joint business agreement for the Canada-U.S. transborder market, building on their long-standing alliance, that will give more flight options and better flight schedules to customers traveling between the two countries. Customers will be able to connect to 38 codeshare destinations in the U.S. and eight of the most popular cities in Canada — all while enjoying the benefits of the carriers' MileagePlus® and Aeroplan loyalty programs. The agreement will also strengthen and grow both carriers' networks and help accelerate their COVID-19 recovery.

"United is a world-class airline and we are pleased to significantly expand our well-established partnership to further enhance the customer journey between Canada and the U.S. by offering more choice, greater convenience and an improved airport experience," said Mark Galardo, Senior Vice President of Network Planning and Revenue Management at Air Canada. "This agreement marks a new phase in our evolving relationship that will speed the recovery from the pandemic and strengthen both carriers. It will also enable us to optimize our hubs and schedules and to broaden our global network connectivity to maintain our leadership in the market."

"With this new agreement, we are further strengthening our long-standing partnership with Air Canada," said Patrick Quayle, Senior Vice President of Global Network Planning and Alliances at United. "As international travel continues to recover, this expanded partnership will provide an enhanced experience for all transborder travel."

Customers who search for flights between the U.S. and Canada on United's or Air Canada's websites and apps will find more flight options scheduled at more convenient times. Codeshare between the two carriers will also be expanded and members of both the MileagePlus and Aeroplan programs will have more accrual and redemption options.

In 2019, the U.S.-Canada transborder market was the second largest international passenger air transportation market in the world and the largest international market for both Canada and the U.S., as measured by seats.

Air Canada and United already cooperate in the transborder market, according to the terms of their existing U.S. antitrust immunity. Under the joint business agreement, subject to compliance with U.S. and Canadian regulatory and antitrust requirements, the two airlines will now be able to:

Coordinate their networks and schedules, enabling the carriers to offer customers more choice, including more flights throughout the day and more access to each airline's seat inventory.

Enhance codeshare on transborder flights, excluding certain U.S. leisure markets and territories. The carriers anticipate customers will be able to connect to 46 transborder codeshare destinations with more than 400 daily frequencies in 2022 – with opportunities to add more codeshare destinations for domestic routes within Canada and the U.S.

Sell seats on each other's transborder flights and share revenue on flights between hub markets (where regulatory authorities and antitrust requirements allow), allowing the carriers to grow their overall capacities.

Align customer policies for greater consistency and enable the seamless provision of onboard products, establish airport co-locations where available and provide extra value to each carriers' frequent flyer programs.

Allow the two carriers to work closer together to advance their sustainability objectives.

The implementation of an expanded partnership builds on the existing close cooperation of the two carriers and previously acquired regulatory approvals. United and Air Canada are also founding members of Star Alliance and a transatlantic joint business agreement with the Lufthansa Group.
https://media.aircanada.com/2022-07-...th-More-Choice


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