SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Downtown & City of Portland (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=192)
-   -   Rose Quarter Redevelopment (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152548)

eric cantona Aug 28, 2015 7:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7145824)
Well that site is stalling till 2023 then. It'll be nearly 30 years old by then. Which is ancient in arena terms..

I will side with the historians and architects who understand design quality, and what that means to our collective culture. personally, I think the MC is a gorgeous building and needs to be preserved. but I think we all need to listen to the experts about what should be preserved.

arguing about the lifespan of the Moda Center and when it will need to be replaced disgusts me on two primary levels:
  1. the building and site design are horrific from an urban design standpoint. it could be anywhere, and has all the appearance of a suburban development. gross. if anything should be demolished it should be that. but...
  1. that said, from a sustainability standpoint replacing it with something else because it's "out of date" is a symptom of why we, as a society, find ourselves in a predicament over too much carbon in the atmosphere (even if it is a shitty suburbanesque development). don't like something? tear it down and build something better. don't like the city? build big-ass freeways and drive your fat ass all over the place.

fuck that shit. time to face the music, America. just because you don't like something is not a reason to tear it down. repurpose, restore, re-something this and other built structures. there is value embedded in the MC. it's time to bring it out.

MarkDaMan Aug 28, 2015 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric cantona (Post 7146001)
I will side with the historians and architects who understand design quality, and what that means to our collective culture. personally, I think the MC is a gorgeous building and needs to be preserved. but I think we all need to listen to the experts about what should be preserved.

arguing about the lifespan of the Moda Center and when it will need to be replaced disgusts me on two primary levels:
  1. the building and site design are horrific from an urban design standpoint. it could be anywhere, and has all the appearance of a suburban development. gross. if anything should be demolished it should be that. but...
  1. that said, from a sustainability standpoint replacing it with something else because it's "out of date" is a symptom of why we, as a society, find ourselves in a predicament over too much carbon in the atmosphere (even if it is a shitty suburbanesque development). don't like something? tear it down and build something better. don't like the city? build big-ass freeways and drive your fat ass all over the place.

fuck that shit. time to face the music, America. just because you don't like something is not a reason to tear it down. repurpose, restore, re-something this and other built structures. there is value embedded in the MC. it's time to bring it out.

I agree with you 100% accept for that last part. Consultant after consultant after city council after city council have not be able to find a financially viable use for the MC. I'd love for Portland to be a trendsetter and find a use that if not financially viable, would at least not be a major burden to manage/maintain. However cities across America have torn down these old arenas because there really isn't a viable use. The "theater of the clouds" at Moda can produce an intimate 10,000 seat venue that is still more enjoyable to see a concert at than the old MC.

I love the exterior of the MC and would love to see the space well used, but after we lost the competition (to SALEM!) to turn it into a Kroc Community Center in 2004, I haven't seen a decent proposal come forward since. If something doesn't happen soon, I'm afraid it's going to get those big ole "U" signs over the doorways and it will just sit there, on valuable inner-city land, and rot.

innovativethinking Aug 28, 2015 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric cantona (Post 7146001)
I will side with the historians and architects who understand design quality, and what that means to our collective culture. personally, I think the MC is a gorgeous building and needs to be preserved. but I think we all need to listen to the experts about what should be preserved.

arguing about the lifespan of the Moda Center and when it will need to be replaced disgusts me on two primary levels:
  1. the building and site design are horrific from an urban design standpoint. it could be anywhere, and has all the appearance of a suburban development. gross. if anything should be demolished it should be that. but...
  1. that said, from a sustainability standpoint replacing it with something else because it's "out of date" is a symptom of why we, as a society, find ourselves in a predicament over too much carbon in the atmosphere (even if it is a shitty suburbanesque development). don't like something? tear it down and build something better. don't like the city? build big-ass freeways and drive your fat ass all over the place.

fuck that shit. time to face the music, America. just because you don't like something is not a reason to tear it down. repurpose, restore, re-something this and other built structures. there is value embedded in the MC. it's time to bring it out.


If historic Yankee stadium can be demo'd then this building certainly can. Mind you nobody outside of the Portland area has even heard of this arena but we treat this thing like some sort of modern marvel admired around the world. This thing is a huge money pit when the city as a more viable and larger arena next door that generates money.

We have to move on people, to the so called handful of architectural historians fighting to keep this, one message for ya stop being so damn nostalgic and help create a new modern marvel.

The whole idea of renovating the white elephant that is Memorial Coliseum is borderline ridiculous. No other city of any degree of sophistication would even attempt such a thing.


There just isn't a lot you can do with the dump. The concourses are always going to be too small, there are never going to be enough restrooms or concession stands and it's always going to be an uncomfortable, behind-the-times arena.

This city will never build a replacement, though. And a bunch of architects, many of whom probably haven't been inside the cold old barn in their lives, got the thing on the historic register, as if it's a tourist attraction. That was a cruel joke on this town.

Trust me, though. If Portland persists in the notion of remodeling it, it's eventually going to cost even more than the new, revised estimates of around 40 million. And making it a "green" building? Yeah, good luck with that.

eric cantona Aug 28, 2015 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7146134)
If historic Yankee stadium can be demo'd then this building certainly can. Mind you nobody outside of the Portland area has even heard of this arena but we treat this thing like some sort of modern marvel admired around the world. This thing is a huge money pit when the city as a more viable and larger arena next door that generates money.

We have to move on people, to the so called handful of architectural historians fighting to keep this, one message for ya stop being so damn nostalgic and help create a new modern marvel.

The whole idea of renovating the white elephant that is Memorial Coliseum is borderline ridiculous. No other city of any degree of sophistication would even attempt such a thing.


There just isn't a lot you can do with the dump. The concourses are always going to be too small, there are never going to be enough restrooms or concession stands and it's always going to be an uncomfortable, behind-the-times arena.

This city will never build a replacement, though. And a bunch of architects, many of whom probably haven't been inside the cold old barn in their lives, got the thing on the historic register, as if it's a tourist attraction. That was a cruel joke on this town.

Trust me, though. If Portland persists in the notion of remodeling it, it's eventually going to cost even more than the new, revised estimates of around 40 million. And making it a "green" building? Yeah, good luck with that.

apparently, I am talking to a wall. "green"? the greenest building are those that are already standing.

mhays Aug 28, 2015 11:03 PM

What if it requires more resources to keep it than not keep it?

What about land as a finite resource? If 1,000 homes can go there instead, isn't that better? With additional benefits to commute patterns?

I categorically disagree on architects being the arbiters of what's worth saving. We don't let our barbers have final say. Architects have a lot to add on the topic, but so does the general public.

58rhodes Aug 28, 2015 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 7146284)
What if it requires more resources to keep it than not keep it?

What about land as a finite resource? If 1,000 homes can go there instead, isn't that better? With additional benefits to commute patterns?

I categorically disagree on architects being the arbiters of what's worth saving. We don't let our barbers have final say. Architects have a lot to add on the topic, but so does the general public.

homes are not going to go there.

to a lot of us old farts this building means something--it is a MEMORIAL
if there were a demand for this land it would have been gone by now

plenty of crappy buildings and parking lots left for development

leave it alone until we can turn it into a Memorial Stadium, its not losing nearly as much as other problems in the city.

$55Gs a year LOL

urbanlife Aug 29, 2015 5:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 58rhodes (Post 7146340)
homes are not going to go there.

to a lot of us old farts this building means something--it is a MEMORIAL
if there were a demand for this land it would have been gone by now

plenty of crappy buildings and parking lots left for development

leave it alone until we can turn it into a Memorial Stadium, its not losing nearly as much as other problems in the city.

$55Gs a year LOL

An actual memorial means more, this building has a poorly designed one tucked in a sunken corner. I would rather see Portland have a better memorial dedicated to the men and women who have served this country.

tworivers Aug 29, 2015 6:14 AM

I'm honestly surprised by the number of people here calling for demolition. Haven't we learned our lesson with our shortsighted removal of "obsolete" buildings? It's the reason why we have piles of cast iron rotting away in warehouses. Indeed, sadly, it's the reason why MC and Moda Center even exist in their current form. About the only way you could get my agreement on the wisdom of tearing down MC is if we demolish the entire Rose Quarter (including the hideous Moda Center and PPS building), reconnect the street grid that was once there, and build plenty of high-density mixed-use buildings with a focus on affordable and workforce housing. Might as well throw in reparations to the African American community that was once concentrated there and up Williams/Vancouver as well.

65MAX Aug 29, 2015 6:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 7146284)
What if it requires more resources to keep it than not keep it?

But it doesn't. It would cost millions just to demolish the MC, but it's only costing the city 55K a year to maintain it as-is. It would be beyond irresponsible to destroy an important architecturally significant building (most people don't understand its significance, including a few people on here apparently) just because a few people don't like how it looks. What a complete waste of money, not to mention the destruction of a big piece of Portland's history. It's like eric said, tearing down an existing building is never as "green" as renovating or repurposing it.

It may take another decade or two to find a suitable use for the MC, but there are a ton of possibilities, and it's costing us next to nothing to wait for the right solution. In the meantime, let's concentrate on getting rid of the acres of parking and putting in some high density mixed use to accommodate the 100's of thousands of people moving here in the next 10 years.

urbanlife Aug 29, 2015 7:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tworivers (Post 7146611)
I'm honestly surprised by the number of people here calling for demolition. Haven't we learned our lesson with our shortsighted removal of "obsolete" buildings? It's the reason why we have piles of cast iron rotting away in warehouses. Indeed, sadly, it's the reason why MC and Moda Center even exist in their current form. About the only way you could get my agreement on the wisdom of tearing down MC is if we demolish the entire Rose Quarter (including the hideous Moda Center and PPS building), reconnect the street grid that was once there, and build plenty of high-density mixed-use buildings with a focus on affordable and workforce housing. Might as well throw in reparations to the African American community that was once concentrated there and up Williams/Vancouver as well.

I would have to say you are comparing apples to oranges. The buildings in oldtown that were torn down could have easily be renovated and reused for today's market. An old arena that has a specific architectural style will always be an arena. If you remove the bowl inside to re-purpose the building, you lose the reason for preserving this architectural piece to begin with.

Basically it is just an old arena that will always be an arena until it is torn down and something else is built there. I use to be for keeping the building, but over the past 10 years nothing has panned out for saving the building and giving it a purpose other than being a small, less needed arena.

65MAX Aug 29, 2015 7:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7146134)
If historic Yankee stadium can be demo'd then this building certainly can. Mind you nobody outside of the Portland area has even heard of this arena but we treat this thing like some sort of modern marvel admired around the world. This thing is a huge money pit when the city as a more viable and larger arena next door that generates money.

We have to move on people, to the so called handful of architectural historians fighting to keep this, one message for ya stop being so damn nostalgic and help create a new modern marvel.

The whole idea of renovating the white elephant that is Memorial Coliseum is borderline ridiculous. No other city of any degree of sophistication would even attempt such a thing.


There just isn't a lot you can do with the dump. The concourses are always going to be too small, there are never going to be enough restrooms or concession stands and it's always going to be an uncomfortable, behind-the-times arena.

This city will never build a replacement, though. And a bunch of architects, many of whom probably haven't been inside the cold old barn in their lives, got the thing on the historic register, as if it's a tourist attraction. That was a cruel joke on this town.

Trust me, though. If Portland persists in the notion of remodeling it, it's eventually going to cost even more than the new, revised estimates of around 40 million. And making it a "green" building? Yeah, good luck with that.

So much for "innovative thinking". I'm guessing you would also demolish the Pantheon and Coliseum in Rome and the Pyramids at Giza. After all, they're just white elephants, no useful purpose, relics that have outlived their time. They're just taking up valuable space, right?

So let's say you succeed in tearing down the MC, then what? Build an even bigger box? Then what, tear down Moda Center? Then 50 years from now tear down the new bigger box because it's (OMG) old?!? And so on, and so on. Doesn't it make more sense to reuse the box we already have? I mean, seriously, it's a blank slate. It could be a market, a performing arts center, a small business incubator, a museum. It could be almost anything with a little bit of imagination, or dare I say, innovative thinking.

65MAX Aug 29, 2015 7:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanlife (Post 7146641)
I would have to say you are comparing apples to oranges. The buildings in oldtown that were torn down could have easily be renovated and reused for today's market.

Don't you think the MC has a lot more possibilties for renovation and reuse than those Old Town gems that were destroyed? See my above comments to the ironically named "innovative thinking". I would say some people here should be thinking outside the box, but in this case, they should think about what could go inside the box. A media center, a corporate HQ, a botanical garden or even a marijuana test garden, just like our Rose Test Garden, but for the new millennium. The possibilities are endless. Hell, I thought we were supposed to be a creative mecca. You'd never know it from the lack of imagination some people have here.

rsbear Aug 29, 2015 1:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65MAX (Post 7146649)
So much for "innovative thinking". I'm guessing you would also demolish the Pantheon and Coliseum in Rome and the Pyramids at Giza. After all, they're just white elephants, no useful purpose, relics that have outlived their time. They're just taking up valuable space, right?

So let's say you succeed in tearing down the MC, then what? Build an even bigger box? Then what, tear down Moda Center? Then 50 years from now tear down the new bigger box because it's (OMG) old?!? And so on, and so on. Doesn't it make more sense to reuse the box we already have? I mean, seriously, it's a blank slate. It could be a market, a performing arts center, a small business incubator, a museum. It could be almost anything with a little bit of imagination, or dare I say, innovative thinking.

Well done.

58rhodes Aug 29, 2015 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanlife (Post 7146580)
An actual memorial means more, this building has a poorly designed one tucked in a sunken corner. I would rather see Portland have a better memorial dedicated to the men and women who have served this country.

I actually like the coliseum--sorry I dont share your opinion.
I think the Moda center is ugly.

urbanlife Aug 29, 2015 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 58rhodes (Post 7146763)
I actually like the coliseum--sorry I dont share your opinion.
I think the Moda center is ugly.

Architecturally the MC is a beautiful piece of architecture, though it is not what I would consider a memorial. The actually memorial is in a sunken plaza that feels neglected and not one people visit.

Veterans deserve a better memorial than that.

urbanlife Aug 29, 2015 4:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65MAX (Post 7146652)
Don't you think the MC has a lot more possibilties for renovation and reuse than those Old Town gems that were destroyed? See my above comments to the ironically named "innovative thinking". I would say some people here should be thinking outside the box, but in this case, they should think about what could go inside the box. A media center, a corporate HQ, a botanical garden or even a marijuana test garden, just like our Rose Test Garden, but for the new millennium. The possibilities are endless. Hell, I thought we were supposed to be a creative mecca. You'd never know it from the lack of imagination some people have here.

So what could the MC be reused for that doesn't involve removing the bowl inside? Being a creative mecca doesn't mean we have to hold on to every thing. I am all for saving the building if there is a use for it, and right now I think it is doing just that, but I wouldn't care too much if it was torn down either.

innovativethinking Aug 29, 2015 5:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65MAX (Post 7146649)
So much for "innovative thinking". I'm guessing you would also demolish the Pantheon and Coliseum in Rome and the Pyramids at Giza. After all, they're just white elephants, no useful purpose, relics that have outlived their time. They're just taking up valuable space, right?

So let's say you succeed in tearing down the MC, then what? Build an even bigger box? Then what, tear down Moda Center? Then 50 years from now tear down the new bigger box because it's (OMG) old?!? And so on, and so on. Doesn't it make more sense to reuse the box we already have? I mean, seriously, it's a blank slate. It could be a market, a performing arts center, a small business incubator, a museum. It could be almost anything with a little bit of imagination, or dare I say, innovative thinking.


Any other major city in America would have long ago blown the thing up. Any other municipality would shake its head at the absurdity of constructing a second basketball arena at the foot of its archaic and outdated predecessor, and then, keeping both facilities. That Memorial Coliseum was successfully thrust into the National Registry of Historic places as a strategy play by those who had a sentimental attachment to it says as much about us as the building itself.

A couple of years ago, the city wisely put on hold plans for a Memorial Coliseum maintenance upgrade. I'm momentarily thankful for that, but hoping, too, that we someday soon come to our senses when it comes to a piece of real estate that could mean so much more to Portland if it were converted into a more useful venue, while also keeping the black granite walls etched with the names of those who gave their lives for our nation.

It feels hollow that children don't walk past that wall on a regular basis, running their fingertips on the names of veterans. It feels silly that the building is used for weddings, some minor-league hockey and high school graduation ceremonies. Mostly since the Blazers left in 1995, it has sat empty, costing the city maintenance and utilities and headaches.

Until more ppl speak up, the city is complicit in this hokey little small-town, double-arena mess. The millions and millions in public funds potentially spent on the upgrade project would be wasted going anywhere but back into the general fund. The city knows it, and has tabled the issue. Even the historical architects who protected the building must be giggling over how easily this has all been pulled off, mostly because the citizens and taxpayers are too soft-hearted to do what's necessary which is knock down walls.

Anything there but that money pit would be worthwhile like a high-rise with condominiums and breathtaking view of the Willamette River. Maybe some prefer restaurants and shopping. I want sports. Baseball, football, whatever. But I think we can all agree what shouldn't happen with the Memorial Coliseum: It shouldn't sit in its current state, eroding, and becoming a symbol of apathy and indifference. That we can agree on.


The building is polarizing that's for sure. But taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for a senseless renovation. The Blazers shouldn't have to exist in the shadow of a useless venue. Veterans should have a building in their honor they can visit, and celebrate.

Any other city would have solved this with sticks of dynamite long time ago.

2oh1 Aug 29, 2015 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric cantona (Post 7146174)
apparently, I am talking to a wall. "green"? the greenest building are those that are already standing.

Not if they waste energy to the extent that Memorial Coliseum does.

58rhodes Aug 29, 2015 8:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7146954)
Not if they waste energy to the extent that Memorial Coliseum does.

this city wastes millions of dollars every month:slob:

58rhodes Aug 29, 2015 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7146848)
Any other major city in America would have long ago blown the thing up. Any other municipality would shake its head at the absurdity of constructing a second basketball arena at the foot of its archaic and outdated predecessor, and then, keeping both facilities. That Memorial Coliseum was successfully thrust into the National Registry of Historic places as a strategy play by those who had a sentimental attachment to it says as much about us as the building itself.

A couple of years ago, the city wisely put on hold plans for a Memorial Coliseum maintenance upgrade. I'm momentarily thankful for that, but hoping, too, that we someday soon come to our senses when it comes to a piece of real estate that could mean so much more to Portland if it were converted into a more useful venue, while also keeping the black granite walls etched with the names of those who gave their lives for our nation.

It feels hollow that children don't walk past that wall on a regular basis, running their fingertips on the names of veterans. It feels silly that the building is used for weddings, some minor-league hockey and high school graduation ceremonies. Mostly since the Blazers left in 1995, it has sat empty, costing the city maintenance and utilities and headaches.

Until more ppl speak up, the city is complicit in this hokey little small-town, double-arena mess. The millions and millions in public funds potentially spent on the upgrade project would be wasted going anywhere but back into the general fund. The city knows it, and has tabled the issue. Even the historical architects who protected the building must be giggling over how easily this has all been pulled off, mostly because the citizens and taxpayers are too soft-hearted to do what's necessary which is knock down walls.

Anything there but that money pit would be worthwhile like a high-rise with condominiums and breathtaking view of the Willamette River. Maybe some prefer restaurants and shopping. I want sports. Baseball, football, whatever. But I think we can all agree what shouldn't happen with the Memorial Coliseum: It shouldn't sit in its current state, eroding, and becoming a symbol of apathy and indifference. That we can agree on.


The building is polarizing that's for sure. But taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for a senseless renovation. The Blazers shouldn't have to exist in the shadow of a useless venue. Veterans should have a building in their honor they can visit, and celebrate.

Any other city would have solved this with sticks of dynamite long time ago.

so Portland sucks??--move to Seattle


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:02 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.