My own personal experience when I drive is $22.50 per hour. The internet is where I've also read about the experience of drivers from Miami to Seattle. So I have no interest in arguing with you when I have 1st hand knowledge of what drivers are reporting all around the country.

Buh bye.

Large-scale statistical evidence vs. personal anecdotes and the company talking points. That's exactly what we have here.

You've posted how many dozens of times, and you have nothing once statistics enter the discussion?

Fun Dem debate tonight.

I'm familiar with the shtick of some accountant types; I'm familiar with the Union propaganda.

The only thing I care about is what gets transferred into my account and I don't care whether or not you believe my own experience. Again I have no interest in any geeky debates. I live and drive in the real world. :)

That's fine, if you don't claim any relevance to average pay. Once you do, anecdotes mean next to nothing.

Find a reputable source that agrees with you. There must be one out there somewhere.

Who are you and what did you do with TakeFive?

The average guy, eh? Nothing very average about the rideshare driver. They run the gamut, seriously.

I've read pages and pages of debate following the passage of AB-5. That's why I'm familiar with the Union propaganda as well as propaganda from their city friends. I'm also familiar with the geeky side from reading all the liberal elites agenda-based propaganda by urbanists which of course is a reputable source... right.

Average guy? What about the average working poor that sees uber/lyft as bit of a life-line. You think they want to see fares double? Have you or your friends ever talked to them? Have you ever given them a ride? You don't even see them; they don't count. There's nothing very average about the Union or urban liberal elites. They all live in their own fantasy world.

Of the roughly 80% of drivers who are part timers the vast majority do not want to be an employee. Neither do the full-timers that know what they're doing.

I'll give you one data set that's well-known. At PHX Sky Harbor, ride-share now does two-thirds of the pickups. The rest are scattered among taxis, various vans or free hotel shuttles, shuttles to the rental car lots etc.

Why do liberals continually want to screw up the free-market where it's working. It's because of their arrogance; they know better what is best for everybody else. Sure they do.

:haha: There's a difference between well-reasoned available information and speculative agenda-based propaganda. Am I guilty of both at times? Probably. What isn't political or subject to opinion? I assume that's where you were going.

Where did I say "average guy"? Read more slowly, then start over.

Average pay is a topic you brought up, using widely-refuted numbers Uber has actually gotten fined for. I simply refuted it.

Also I've said nothing related to most of your points.

How's this...respond to the point at hand. Try for something that's not just your opinion or company propaganda.

I have no idea what the company propaganda is. I disregard everything that's non-essential so please drop the erroneous assumption that I know or care about that. I like how you just throw things out there; I've noticed you excel at that.

Where did I say anything about average pay? You brought that up; since data is sterile with zero context I merely put a human face on average. One thing I'll apologize for is that I missed your link. My focus was on live streaming the Avalanche hockey game so I missed it.

With respect to the ridester piece it's close enough, however... it's also irrelevant. I wanted to double check experience breakouts so I did a quick google. From Yahoo Finance I found this:
Now that I have some context to work with including the ridester article...

Rideshare is an easy entry job and people assume all they have to do is turn on the app and make lots of money. I'm probably the exception in that before I started I went online and learned the in's and out's, the do's and don'ts. OK so most people don't do that.

There are drivers who hang out at the airport queue playing blackjack for a couple of hours waiting for that one good ride. Some people turn the app on at home waiting for a trip. Some congregate at hot spots and shoot the breeze. You think that's a valid way of measuring earnings per hour? It's accurate from a data aggregation POV but it's also misleading, pointless.

Lots of people use rideshare as a bridge between jobs. While it's not that difficult to make $20 an hour or more it's also not hard to make only $15. They may drive for only a few weeks or months as that is their intention. Recent graduates use rideshare after they've moved cross country to wherever before they find a real job. Not knowing the landscape does make a difference.

Any job takes a few months to get the hang of things. If you can't make a minimum of $15 net of gas expenses then you need to get a real job and I assume that's what happens. Any legitimate measure for rideshare earnings should use drivers who have at least 6 months of experience. Otherwise there's too much noise from clueless or itinerant people included.

The figures I'm using are from experienced drivers who have learned enough to easily make $20 an hour which should be absolute minimum for anyone who wants to keep doing rideshare. $25 an hour is fairly typical for any driver who has gone through the learning curve.

I'll meet you in the middle. You said "experienced" and I didn't give that enough credit. Also there's a large variance between cities and type of service per my original link. It's possible that we're both right...experienced driver in expensive city vs. national averages.

But it's still poverty wages for most drivers, and bordering on it even at $20-25 in a fairly expensive city. If the internet is correct, (a) there are no benefits, and (b) you have to pay your own SS/M costs. Further, you're risking a lot of expenses not typically counted, like unpaid maintenance and liability. I'd guess that healthcare, vacation time, and employer-paid federal benefits would be worth well over $5/hour in a typical full-time job (even without a retirement plan), so $20-25 would be more like $15-20-equivalent omitting any unpaid costs, and $15 would be more like $10, even before the added risks.

We're close.

Look, anybody that can find a nice paying job with good bene's would be crazy not to do so. The sad thing (currently) is there's way too many ants out there - a term we affectionately call rideshare drivers. Too many ants reduces the bonuses offered which can be significant.

It's ideal as a part-time gig. For those like me who are retired or semi- we have our Medicare. Your Gross is your Net unless you're making more than 57.5 cents a mile and then you celebrate. Being able to work whenever is extremely important for most of us.

Consider teachers. Their car(s) is a depreciating asset. Doing rideshare can easily add between a $1,000 to $1,500 a month in free cash. To account for increased maintenance/depreciation, let's say they make $45,000 over three years. From that they have to pay added maintenance and then 'pay back' say $8-$10,000 for the accelerated depreciation (from rideshare) but they also end up with a new car.

For the many who are in between jobs any cash, even at $15 an hour is all they need to pay their bills.

I wonder if RTD is ever going to recover from COVID. Before this crisis, I was actually considering selling my car once the North line is up and running, since it has a stop fairly close to my work in Commerce City, and I could walk or bike the last mile. Now, I'm just damn grateful to have my own personal car and the idea of getting rid of it seems ludicrous. Even after COVID is long over, I don't see myself getting rid of it. I feel more secure having it.

I fear one of the ways our culture will be changed after this, is that public transportation will be less appealing. The bus was gross enough before coronavirus.

Did SARS affect public transit ridership in Asia during their crisis in the early 2000s? Maybe America is different in this regard, but it would be a good data point.

I don't know off-hand, but I do know it has been common in recent years for people in many parts of Asia to walk around in public (or on public transit, etc) with medical masks on their faces. I would shake my ethno/western-centric head at such scenes and think it's bizarre behavior and wonder what it would be like to live in a place with such a cold, antisocial culture. I didn't get it.

Anyway, Denver is a sparsely-populated car town, and RTD was already in enough trouble as it was. I wonder how they're ever going to recover and wonder if this pandemic is going to set back the whole urbanism revival.

Last night I parked my car across from a bus stop just as the 10 happened to pull up. I shuttered as I watched a man board and thought out loud, 'Oh my god; that guy's gonna get on that bus!'

I can't be the only one with a changing attitude regarding transit. I'm guessing it's pervasive. Then again, I was always a little grossed out by Denver buses...

Two, very real, potential outcomes of this are anti-transit and anti-density sentiments. There's been a lot of conversation about how to be proactive to combat this, but it might be awhile before normal is reached. Transit agencies are going to have to be very creative and flexible. Cities are going to have to tell the stories about why density is still good for our health.

A bit of good news. Colfax BRT moves into Design/NEPA:

Notice of Request For Qualifications: Professional Design Services For Colfax Transit Implementation - Bus Rapid Transit

https://i2.wp.com/wp-denverite.s3.am...00%2C400&ssl=1

Source

I think to answer some of those questions, one needs to think about what are some permanent changes that come out of this that are never undone. For example, many people in more dense environments are increasingly relying on delivery services to help get through it. This is an argument for keeping that density. Being within walking distance of essential needs also helps us out through this. On the other hand, for many companies will come out of this realizing they can do just fine with most people working remotely. What does that do for office spaces? For job locations? All of that will have serious implications for the need for public transit.

In the future, if you work for a company that has the right tools to go remote, then why do you even need to go into a centralized office? Sure, you still need in-person meetings for certain functions (sales, marketing, etc). I could just be permanently remote, occasionally going into a WeWork style environment when I need to get out of the house and be around people. My company already had a few people working 100% remote just fine. I expect this process is going to push many many more people off that cliff into a permanent remote situation. As technology adapts to facilitate this through the crisis, it will only help accelerate that trend moving into the future.

All interesting food for thought....

My (not Denver-based) company is pretty much all remote with the exception of central-office services (accounting/finance, marketing, some HR, executive team). We'll do a quarterly or semi-annual gathering of teams, but otherwise we handle our work just fine from Teams and GoToMeeting. I'm sure it saves an insane amount on real estate costs and general infrastructure...plus I'm less bitchy when I have a 6am or 7am call with the east coast, since I can just roll out at 5:55/6:55 and hop on.

My guess is that density will remain the trend. But that also includes more density in the suburbs (which has been the trend) as well as in the city center. Sprawl may be fine for a place like Phoenix (with increased density) but sprawl (in general) is not a good model for Denver.

Good to hear. :tup:

I've yet to have any idea what the 'new economy' will look and feel like but I'm sure your thinking will be a significant factor. For one thing, tech has become so significant and tech can easily move to more of a work-at-home model as you point out.

Most of the Gig economy thrives w/o lots of office space. Not only drivers including rideshare, Amazon delivery, shopping by Instacart or pizza/fast food delivery... there's also already a lot of free lance writers, consultants, photography, graphic and web designers, marketers etc.

All that said, my hunch is that office space will remain a significant part of the landscape.

One of the things that twister244 and I agree on is the need to invest in BRT-type service along major corridors. That hasn't changed. I see light rail success as they serve specific corridors that will continue to encourage TOD.

We all know there's only one Sam Hill in the world but no doubt there's a whole lot of people that feel like you do.

Whatever the 'new normal' turns out to be, it makes me believe more than ever in my previous ranting.

There will presumably be even more bus-averse riders than before. Rideshare is too expensive to be used for everyday commuting for most people. There has to be something in between like shuttle bus style app based service that could be designed to accommodate different models. It could be a subscription commuter service that serves specific areas; it could be totally on-demand; it could do both. As previously suggested smaller shuttle style vehicles will have better appeal than Big Bertha buses for many people.

As previously ranted about I see less need for traditional bus service. Some commuter routes would make sense as would some basic level of service in the urban core but I'll guess half of the bus routes will die of coronavirus.