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thenoflyzone Mar 23, 2022 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caribb (Post 9576360)
The XLR’s have a range of 8700 km but what is the realistic operational range of these A321’s. They can easily fly YUL-DKR but could they theoretically do YUL-ABJ or YYZ-ACC? I see them as more of a right size for West Africa than a widebody. Not saying this is going to happen or need to happen but just curious if it could be used on these routes.

A321XLR range is 4700nm (8700km). Realistically, accounting for the winds on the return flights to Canada from Europe, the range for a full load is somewhere around 4,000-4200 nm. (7400-7800km)

Here are the maps with a 4,200nm range instead of a 4,700 nm.

From YVR. Anything outside the UK/Ireland is unrealistic. As for Asia, eastern Japan is the limit. In South America, not much to be had. LIM is out of bounds, and BOG is doable, but the altitude of the airport makes it a no go on the return. The power/weight ratio of a widebody is needed for that route. This being said, not much winds on a north-south flight, so the A321XLR might make it to LIM, but it's still tight. However, South America is cargo heavy, so a widebody makes more sense on a lot of routes, especially LIM.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yvr,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

Roughly the same for YYC.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyc,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

from YUL. ABJ is tight. DKR is doable. Anyways, Africa is cargo heavy, just like South America, so widebodies make more sense there as well.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yul,+abj,...X=720x360&PM=*

From YYZ. Scandinavia and thinner Eastern Europe destinations are perfect.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyz,+cph,...X=720x360&PM=*

So yes, its no secret that this plane will benefit Eastern Canadian airports most. Still, some key secondary markets in UK/Ireland from YVR/YYC/YEG are well within reach.

Edit: Here's YWG, which is ideally placed to benefit from this plane as well. A lot of non stop destinations are possible, both east and west.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ywg,+hnl,...X=720x360&PM=*

Obviously, not implying AC will necessarily fly these routes, just illustrating the possibilities. AC's press release clearly stated that these planes will strengthen their hubs, so I don't expect anything outside of YUL/YYZ/YVR, except for maybe YOW-LHR, YQB-CDG, and some YHZ or YYT routes.

casper Mar 23, 2022 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9577019)
A321XLR range is 4700nm (8700km). Realistically, accounting for the winds on the return flights to Canada from Europe, the range for a full load is somewhere around 4,000-4200 nm. (7400-7800km)

Here are the maps with a 4,200nm range instead of a 4,700 nm.

From YVR. Anything outside the UK/Ireland is unrealistic. As for Asia, eastern Japan is the limit. In South America, not much to be had. LIM is out of bounds, and BOG is doable, but the altitude of the airport makes it a no go on the return. The power/weight ratio of a widebody is needed for that route. This being said, not much winds on a north-south flight, so the A321XLR might make it to LIM, but it's still tight. However, South America is cargo heavy, so a widebody makes more sense on a lot of routes, especially LIM.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yvr,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

Roughly the same for YYC.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyc,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

from YUL. ABJ is tight. DKR is doable. Anyways, Africa is cargo heavy, just like South America, so widebodies make more sense there as well.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yul,+abj,...X=720x360&PM=*

From YYZ. Scandinavia and thinner Eastern Europe destinations are perfect.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyz,+cph,...X=720x360&PM=*

So yes, its no secret that this plane will benefit Eastern Canadian airports most. Still, some key secondary markets in UK/Ireland from YVR/YYC/YEG are well within reach.

Edit: Here's YWG, which is ideally placed to benefit from this plane as well. A lot of non stop destinations are possible, both east and west.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ywg,+hnl,...X=720x360&PM=*

Obviously, not implying AC will necessarily fly these routes, just illustrating the possibilities. AC's press release clearly stated that these planes will strengthen their hubs, so I don't expect anything outside of YUL/YYZ/YVR, except for maybe YOW-LHR, YQB-CDG, and some YHZ or YYT routes.

From Vancouver I could Dublin (AC currently flying there in the summer). Panama City would also be an interesting destination to look at if it could come up with a deal with Copa on connections. New York and Boston would also be logic targets for connecting traffic to Australia or Asia.

Air Canada has three slots at Heathrow that have the correct timing for Western Canada. One is always dedicated to Calgary the second to Vancouver. The third one, AC has experimented with over the years. It is currently used for a second daily to Vancouver but in years past has been used by Edmonton and even back in the 90s by Winnipeg. They could go high density 777 on Vancouver and move that second one back to Edmonton. Given Edmonton is moving towards being a ULCC hub, may make more sense to use it out of Winnipeg.

nname Mar 24, 2022 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9577061)
They could go high density 777 on Vancouver and move that second one back to Edmonton. Given Edmonton is moving towards being a ULCC hub, may make more sense to use it out of Winnipeg.

Or double daily LHR from YVR and YUL with the XLR, and free up the 787/333 for something else.

YVR/YUL-DUB is also likely to turn into XLR, free up another 787.

Currently AC seems to have too many LHR slots and they doesn't really know how to use them...

Dominion301 Mar 24, 2022 4:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9577123)
Or double daily LHR from YVR and YUL with the XLR, and free up the 787/333 for something else.

YVR/YUL-DUB is also likely to turn into XLR, free up another 787.

Currently AC seems to have too many LHR slots and they doesn't really know how to use them...

That's already happening this summer. YUL and YVR both double daily. YHZ has been given YYZ's traditional daytripper slot, while YOW's slot sits dormant this year. Traffic will still be well below pre-pandemic levels, and with war on the continent it won't help. LHR "use-it-or-lose-it" actually equates to an airline using their slot allocation to a minimum of 80%...hence why YOW can be dormant and YHZ is only 5x weekly the first few weeks (would not be surprised to see that all summer) without AC needing to worry about losing anything. AC also got around losing slots by having two LHR slots leased out. The UA one I imagine is no doubt a long-term lease, but the one to Blue Air I'm sure AC will want back sooner rather than later no doubt...to bring YYZ back up to its traditional 4x daily once the traffic's there. The UA one is no doubt the slot historically allocated to YYT and probably the one they're using to launch BOS-LHR. A YYT ACer said on airliners.net that unless a couple of 223s get ETOPS'd, he doubts YYT-LHR returns...unless AC would revert back to the days of when the YHZ flight would stop at YYT 2-3 times/week, which of course wouldn't require any extra slots. I imagine YHZ-LHR eventually gets XLR'd year-round given the inferior MAX product.

If gov't traffic returns in 2023 (all signs are pointing as to that's when it'll happen), YOW-LHR will return for summer 2023 on the 788. The 321XLR is perfect in winter for YOW-LHR to maintain daily frequency whereas traditionally the route would reduce to 5x/week in winter. If LH at YOW never materializes (I'm still dumbfounded that they're launching YHZ on top of Condor's longstanding service, especially when traffic is still weak), I imagine AC would re-launch the route with an XLR and it would be the perfect sized aircraft to make the route viable year-round. With AF launching YQB-CDG, I think if CDG sees an XLR route, it'll be a summer seasonal YOW-CDG. Why would AC want to be a 3rd carrier on YQB-CDG?

caribb Mar 24, 2022 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9577019)
A321XLR range is 4700nm (8700km). Realistically, accounting for the winds on the return flights to Canada from Europe, the range for a full load is somewhere around 4,000-4200 nm. (7400-7800km)

Here are the maps with a 4,200nm range instead of a 4,700 nm.

From YVR. Anything outside the UK/Ireland is unrealistic. As for Asia, eastern Japan is the limit. In South America, not much to be had. LIM is out of bounds, and BOG is doable, but the altitude of the airport makes it a no go on the return. The power/weight ratio of a widebody is needed for that route. This being said, not much winds on a north-south flight, so the A321XLR might make it to LIM, but it's still tight. However, South America is cargo heavy, so a widebody makes more sense on a lot of routes, especially LIM.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yvr,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

Roughly the same for YYC.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyc,+cdg,...X=720x360&PM=*

from YUL. ABJ is tight. DKR is doable. Anyways, Africa is cargo heavy, just like South America, so widebodies make more sense there as well.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yul,+abj,...X=720x360&PM=*

From YYZ. Scandinavia and thinner Eastern Europe destinations are perfect.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyz,+cph,...X=720x360&PM=*

So yes, its no secret that this plane will benefit Eastern Canadian airports most. Still, some key secondary markets in UK/Ireland from YVR/YYC/YEG are well within reach.

Edit: Here's YWG, which is ideally placed to benefit from this plane as well. A lot of non stop destinations are possible, both east and west.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ywg,+hnl,...X=720x360&PM=*

Obviously, not implying AC will necessarily fly these routes, just illustrating the possibilities. AC's press release clearly stated that these planes will strengthen their hubs, so I don't expect anything outside of YUL/YYZ/YVR, except for maybe YOW-LHR, YQB-CDG, and some YHZ or YYT routes.

As always you give awesome answers, thanks! I’m anxious to see how this all rolls out. Lots of niche route possibilities from each city you mentioned. It’ll likely give the competition sleepless nights. Im hoping for YUL-CPH, YUL-MAD and maybe something innovative and different like YUL-RAK.

On a side note I’m curious how you made those maps. I looked briefly at the great circle mapper site but didn’t see any way to put in a range radius instead of a destination.

hehehe Mar 24, 2022 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caribb (Post 9577500)
As always you give awesome answers, thanks! I’m anxious to see how this all rolls out. Lots of niche route possibilities from each city you mentioned. It’ll likely give the competition sleepless nights. Im hoping for YUL-CPH, YUL-MAD and maybe something innovative and different like YUL-RAK.

On a side note I’m curious how you made those maps. I looked briefly at the great circle mapper site but didn’t see any way to put in a range radius instead of a destination.

When you go on http://www.gcmap.com/, click the second button "map map ranges example 9380nm@LHR". Then scroll down to the bottom where it says ranges and click that and change it.

Calfan12 Mar 24, 2022 5:53 PM

This upcoming weekend for Calgary YYC

WestJet starts up YYC - London LHR flights - 4x weekly on Saturday March 26 & while YYC - London LGW from Sunday March 27 - April 30 is on hiatus.

United YYC - Chicago ORD resumes 1x daily flights again on Sunday March 27, (as this route has been suspended since mid March 2020)

hollywoodcory Mar 24, 2022 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9577845)
United YYC - Chicago ORD resumes 1x daily flights again on Sunday March 27, (as this route has been suspended since mid March 2020)

UA actually briefly resumed this route in S20 from July-early September.

hollywoodcory Mar 24, 2022 7:05 PM

YYC February 2022 Stats:

Domestic: 500,108 +183.0% (YTD: 975,552 +154.4%)
Transborder: 116,817 +971.4% (YTD: 212,36 +421.0%)
International: 80,605 +1792.1% (YTD: 163,312 +583.89%)
2022 YTD: 1,350,230 +201.53%

The international/US numbers have already hit half of what YYC saw in all of 2021.

caribb Mar 24, 2022 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9577762)
When you go on http://www.gcmap.com/, click the second button "map map ranges example 9380nm@LHR". Then scroll down to the bottom where it says ranges and click that and change it.

Thanks! Not sure how I missed that.

MountainView Mar 24, 2022 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9577845)
This upcoming weekend for Calgary YYC

United YYC - Chicago ORD resumes 1x daily flights again on Sunday March 27, (as this route has been suspended since mid March 2020)

Same thing over here in YOW! 1x daily YOW-ORD (albeit on a regional jet). Do you know if YYC-ORD was on the A319/320 pre-pandemic? I notice it's on the E175 to start with.

As an aside, United is also bringing back YOW-EWR in May... so YOW will go from no daily EWR flights to up to 6x on AC/UA come late May

Coldrsx Mar 24, 2022 8:34 PM

Gotta love competition.

Just booked YYC-YYZ mid-summer for just over $300 return.

Curious to see how I will like the A220.

Airboy Mar 24, 2022 9:01 PM

Should see a LOT 787 cargo here soon. Taking a load of donated supplies to Ukraine.

hehehe Mar 24, 2022 9:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainView (Post 9578075)
Same thing over here in YOW! 1x daily YOW-ORD (albeit on a regional jet). Do you know if YYC-ORD was on the A319/320 pre-pandemic? I notice it's on the E175 to start with.

As an aside, United is also bringing back YOW-EWR in May... so YOW will go from no daily EWR flights to up to 6x on AC/UA come late May

UA was 2xdaily E175 on YYC-ORD, and will go daily 319 this summer.

cranes Mar 24, 2022 10:46 PM

https://www.therecord.com/news/water...is-summer.html

Pivot hopes to start Waterloo Region flights to Ottawa, Montreal this summer
Catherine Thompson
By Catherine ThompsonRecord Reporter
Thu., March 24, 2022timer1 min. read

BRESLAU — Pivot Airlines is delaying its planned flights from Waterloo Region to Ottawa and Montreal until at least early summer.

The airline announced in October that it would begin flying to Ottawa on Feb. 19, and to Montreal starting March 21. But the airlines said in January that it was delaying the launch because of new pandemic travel restrictions brought on by the highly infectious Omicron variant.

https://www.therecord.com/news/water...subsidies.html

Waterloo Region gives Flair Airlines $200K in subsidies
Catherine Thompson
By Catherine ThompsonRecord Reporter
Thu., March 24, 2022timer2 min. read

BRESLAU — The Region of Waterloo will give Flair Airlines more than $200,000 in subsidies as the discount airline continues to expand routes at the Waterloo airport. That’s on top of about $100,000 the Region gave the airline got when it first began flying out of Breslau.

The decision gives Flair a break of about $134,000 in landing fees, as well as $80,000 for marketing. The airport normally charges $643.25 per landing, but is waiving the fees for six months for the airline’s new routes out of Waterloo Region airport.

thenoflyzone Mar 25, 2022 9:05 PM

Still waiting on the results of YQB for 2021, but so far, YXX has moved up to 12th busiest airport in 2021.

503,955 total passengers, +60% from 2020.

https://www.abbynews.com/news/abbots...mark-for-2021/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...in_Canada#2021

casper Mar 25, 2022 10:35 PM

Interesting, Canada has another 737-300 operator.

Video Link

thenoflyzone Mar 25, 2022 11:54 PM

^ Nice. It was about time they join the jet age !

A 35.5 year old frame no less. That's as good as brand new for Buffalo, considering the DC3s and C46s are 70-80 years old, and the Electras are 60 years old !

https://www.planespotters.net/airfra...viation/rowy1e

Architype Mar 26, 2022 12:18 AM

Shouldn't they be called "Buffalo Wings?"

thewave46 Mar 26, 2022 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9579594)
^ Nice. It was about time they join the jet age !

A 35.5 year old frame no less. That's as good as brand new for Buffalo, considering the DC3s and C46s are 70-80 years old, and the Electras are 60 years old !

https://www.planespotters.net/airfra...viation/rowy1e

It's all about the cycles, hours, and maintenance.

FedEx is still flying DC-10s from 1973.

Cool to see an old bird still taking flight, but I still prefer the 737-200s flown by various northern operators with their teeny JT8Ds.


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