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-   -   Will Virginia lose it's southern status? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245214)

jd3189 Dec 27, 2020 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142992)
As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9143406)
Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.

Just like every other big city, and many smaller ones, in the South?

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 2:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
... and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include ... Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans ... ?

Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"

memph Dec 28, 2020 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9143408)
I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts, it'll probably be make more sense to refer to Midwestern/Heartland states vs East Coast.

SpawnOfVulcan Dec 28, 2020 4:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142491)
That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.

Will O' Wisp Dec 28, 2020 5:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143562)
Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"

It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

I'm not sure whether you realize we're in agreement...? Sauerkraut wasn't German in the early Middle Ages; Sauerkraut is German now; Virginia was Southern in 1860; NoVa isn't Southern now; etc.

In other words - things can change; someday, KFC might be culturally Japanese and Virginia might be culturally Yankee. Just because KFC was unarguably not Japanese at all at some point in the past, doesn't mean KFC can't eventually become typical Japanese food at some point in the future.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

It will be, by the people who are on my side of the argument; it won't be, by the people who are on the side that insists that [Virginia/KFC] was [Southern/Not-Japanese] 200 years ago, and therefore, can never become anything else.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9143291)
Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.

Exactly my point. Independence/secession isn't the one thing culture hinges on. Irish culture existed in the 1910s and earlier; Scottish culture exists now; Gatineau is currently a Québécois city where people eat poutine and watch TLMEP on Sunday despite a tendency to vote PQ/BQ significantly less than the rest of us.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9143209)
Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.

That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9143408)
If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

Yes;
Quote:

Originally Posted by memph (Post 9143604)
If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts,

they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)

JManc Dec 28, 2020 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143647)
Yes;they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)

No. They wouldn't cease to be southern. New York/ Philly/ Boston are still culturally northeast (with some variation) with DC kind of in the middle of both north/ south but VA through GA will remain southern even if more integrated with other metros.

iheartthed Dec 28, 2020 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

Christmas is also romantic holiday in Japan (similar to Valentine's Day), which westerners would find extremely weird.

Docere Dec 28, 2020 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143643)
That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.

My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.

JManc Dec 28, 2020 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9143884)
My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.

Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.

Docere Dec 28, 2020 9:39 PM

What's strange is the very seem people who are asserting "change" and 'history is not static" are the most adamant about removing Virginia from the South.

liat91 Dec 29, 2020 5:17 AM

I agree that Virginia now looks more towards the NE than south. Parts of it are southern, but so are parts of Maryland and even Pennsylvania.

Once Richmond no longer feels strongly southern, Virginia clearly joins the NE. Same with Jacksonville in Florida, once it flips, there can be no argument that the state is no longer southern. The rest of the historical south is still pretty solid with mainstream islands within.

bobdreamz Dec 29, 2020 5:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan (Post 9143612)
Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.

This is like becoming a broken record now on this forum.
Miami wasn't settled or developed by "Southerners" to begin with.
The argument you are making makes sense if you are talking about Atlanta because no matter how many different types of people move there that city is still drenched in Southern history & culture.
Miami never was.

mrnyc Dec 29, 2020 6:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9143992)
Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.

thats true of anywhere though. move to the pacific nw you will be wearing fleece and never dress up nice again. move to ohio women will end up with a speak to the manager suburban helmet hairstyle. etc. any region has its own thing. i guess that just reiterates the south is hardly uniform.

craigs Dec 29, 2020 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

Okay, but if subject of this thread were a settled issue in the American context like it is in these other non-American scenarios, then the entire premise of this thread would make zero sense and we wouldn't be discussing it.


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