SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

VANRIDERFAN Jul 22, 2022 3:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9683111)
I think its Toronto wants star players and because cfl salary constraints is unable to sign stars like it could in years gone by is a big reason for the decline in Toronto. Back in the 70s they could sign some of the best players out of US colleges and draw 45 to 50 thousand fans a game. Even in the early 90s Rocket Ismail they were averaging 36,000 a game and Ricky Williams in 2006 30,000 fans a game. If the CFL could sign even 1 star player per team would likely generate a lot more interest.

2007 and most CFL stadiums were at or near capacity for their games and then the league signed an exclusive TV contract with TSN and its been a steady decline since then. Hmmm.

jonny24 Jul 22, 2022 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9683094)
Perhaps the issue isn't so much MLSE not doing its job but that the CFL or gridiron cannot be marketed and/or successful in Toronto in the way that CFL fans are expecting.

Saying that Toronto is too 'American' or that Canadians prefer a league with US teams is simply a coping mechanism for the steady decline of the CFL at this point. Leagues like the CHL continue to exist (and yes I know there are US teams) despite the supposed unwillingness of Canadians to be supportive of purely domestic ventures. I think it's weird to throw the American angle in as a reason when so many CFL players are American to begin with and something the CFL relies on for talent.

OHL teams also struggle in the GTA compared to elsewhere.

Toronto just thinks it's too big for Canada-only leagues.

As for what diffrerent owners would do differently - I think they would do a lot of the same things, only they would try harder, stick with it longer, and actually care about it working. MLSE can't be arsed with giving the Argos their own president.

Acajack Jul 22, 2022 8:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9683113)
Yes the CFL has really dropped the ball on selling itself to Canada. But the growing chorus of Canadians who hate the CFL because it doesn't give million dollar contracts or that a US college team could easily beat a CFL team just prove they know nothing about the game and talent level.

I'm also pointing out that CPL, CEBL and even CHL teams are having difficulty in filling their barns as well. Finally that our "National Sports Networks" are more than willing to buy access to mainly US sports products instead of putting a mediocre amount of effort (like showing highlights) in promoting Canadian entities.

NCAA regional gymnastics semi-finals between Moorehead State and Ole Miss on TSN prime time have always been a family favourite in my household!

Acajack Jul 22, 2022 8:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9683417)
OHL teams also struggle in the GTA compared to elsewhere.

Toronto just thinks it's too big TIME for Canada-only leagues.

As for what diffrerent owners would do differently - I think they would do a lot of the same things, only they would try harder, stick with it longer, and actually care about it working. MLSE can't be arsed with giving the Argos their own president.

Fixed that for you ;)

jonny24 Jul 22, 2022 8:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9683428)
Fixed that for you ;)

A sadly accurate correction.

JHikka Jul 22, 2022 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9683113)
I'm also pointing out that CPL, CEBL and even CHL teams are having difficulty in filling their barns as well.

Yes and no. I'm not caught up on CEBL crowds but some CPL teams are on pace to set season records for average crowds, namely Victoria and Calgary. CHL crowds, last I saw, weren't drastically different from pre-COVID, although we'll need likely another season to see if there's any sort of widespread trend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9683417)
OHL teams also struggle in the GTA compared to elsewhere.

Oshawa does fine. Demographics everywhere else, like Mississauga and Markham, don't really add up for CHL teams, and don't make economic sense within the city itself. Hockey, like gridiron, isn't an urban sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9683417)
Toronto just thinks it's too big for Canada-only leagues.

If you say so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny24 (Post 9683417)
As for what diffrerent owners would do differently - I think they would do a lot of the same things, only they would try harder, stick with it longer, and actually care about it working. MLSE can't be arsed with giving the Argos their own president.

I see.

thurmas Jul 22, 2022 9:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9683510)
Yes and no. I'm not caught up on CEBL crowds but some CPL teams are on pace to set season records for average crowds, namely Victoria and Calgary. CHL crowds, last I saw, weren't drastically different from pre-COVID, although we'll need likely another season to see if there's any sort of widespread trend.


Oshawa does fine. Demographics everywhere else, like Mississauga and Markham, don't really add up for CHL teams, and don't make economic sense within the city itself. Hockey, like gridiron, isn't an urban sport.


If you say so.


I see.

I would agree with demographics too Torontos don't really work well for gridiron and hockey as much as it used to either. It's more and more a Soccer and basketball town

EpicPonyTime Jul 24, 2022 6:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9683045)
Which new owners? Would love to know who would want to own the team once the CFL is rid is MLSE's supposed mismanagement.

Never claimed to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9683045)
If MLSE is giving up on the team what makes you think they would want to retain them as a tenant? Neither Lamport nor Varsity are really feasible for CFL teams unless the league wants to drop its gameday quality and amenities substantially in order to stay in the market.

Money. The amount of TFC fans they'd close compared to the rent from having the Argos play there is miniscule. Added to that City Hall has been pro-sharing the stadium in the past. No reason to think MLSE wouldn't take their money. Besides, it's not like there's any real feasible stadiums for a CFL team elsewhere, unless you count Guelph.

Al Ski Jul 24, 2022 8:12 AM

I've been a follower of the CFL all my life. Not overly enthusiastic but I follow the scores, the standings and go to games every now and then.

When many players don't earn enough to live in the cities that they play for ie: Toronto and Vancouver - that's a REAL problem.

The other is of course 10 teams but that's been long standing..

The clown show 'crossover' b.s. is just sad.

JHikka Jul 29, 2022 3:53 PM

https://www.ledevoir.com/sports/7393...es-de-montreal

FIX Auto CEO Steve Leal has put in a bid for the Acadie-Bathurst Titan of the QMJHL, and a relocation to somewhere in or around Montreal is a condition of that purchase. They would need to find a location to build a 3-4K capacity CHL arena, likely on the South Shore of Montreal, likely in one of the following communities: Boucherville, Chambly, Châteauguay, Longueuil, Saint-Constant, Saint-Hyacinthe, Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Sainte-Julie.

FIX Auto is based out of Blainville, where there is already a Q team.

The Titan originally played in Laval between 1971 and 1998 before relocating to Bathurst.

elly63 Jul 29, 2022 4:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9683115)
2007 and most CFL stadiums were at or near capacity for their games and then the league signed an exclusive TV contract with TSN and its been a steady decline since then. Hmmm.

The 3downnation folks are starting to ask why there are no games on CTV and trying to promote Sunday games in the summer, both subjects need to be explored.

JHikka Jul 29, 2022 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9689169)
The 3downnation folks are starting to ask why there are no games on CTV and trying to promote Sunday games in the summer, both subjects need to be explored.

NFL is on CTV because of advertising incentives.
CFL is on TSN because of subscriber incentives.

Bell can use each in each silo to push numbers in both directions. It's fair to assume that CFL games on TSN wouldn't raise advertising rates and so their exclusivity on TSN is to encourage people to not cut the cord on that platform. I'm assuming the guys at 3down know this already.

VANRIDERFAN Jul 29, 2022 4:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9689182)
Bell can use each in each silo to push numbers in both directions. It's fair to assume that CFL games on TSN wouldn't raise advertising rates and so their exclusivity on TSN is to encourage people to not cut the cord on that platform. I'm assuming the guys at 3down know this already.

What ever Bell's aim is, its not working for the CFL.

thurmas Jul 29, 2022 7:06 PM

I read today fox is paying the USFL 150 million over 3 years on their TV deal for 8 teams which is almost 2 million more per club then what tsn is paying the CFL these days. CFL needs to diversify their content providers

EpicPonyTime Jul 30, 2022 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9689386)
I read today fox is paying the USFL 150 million over 3 years on their TV deal for 8 teams which is almost 2 million more per club then what tsn is paying the CFL these days. CFL needs to diversify their content providers

Comparing American TV contracts to Canadian TV contracts is apples to oranges. That said, the CFL should do what they can to try and get a better contact with ESPN in the future. Their games draw quite well for a foreign league, which just goes to show how football-hungry the States are.

thurmas Jul 30, 2022 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 9689672)
Comparing American TV contracts to Canadian TV contracts is apples to oranges. That said, the CFL should do what they can to try and get a better contact with ESPN in the future. Their games draw quite well for a foreign league, which just goes to show how football-hungry the States are.

CFL is better quality players and game and far more valuable an asset to TSN than what USFL is to Fox programming i think in this instance its a fair comparison.

thurmas Jul 30, 2022 12:14 AM

CFL usually gets 100 to 250k viewers on ESPN 2 but its been stuck in that zone for years now not sure they can get more out of ESPN than what they already get

EpicPonyTime Jul 30, 2022 5:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9689676)
CFL is better quality players and game and far more valuable an asset to TSN than what USFL is to Fox programming i think in this instance its a fair comparison.

I don't know if having better players matters, but Fox clearly values the USFL since they own the league. :shrug: It's also a matter of what Canadian channels are willing to pay for CFL content. I don't really see them getting more than what they currently are, which is approximately $50 million a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9689678)
CFL usually gets 100 to 250k viewers on ESPN 2 but its been stuck in that zone for years now not sure they can get more out of ESPN than what they already get

Dave Naylor was commenting on Twitter a few days ago and said the CFL's deal with ESPN is up after this year and that the League thinks it can get a good windfall for their rights. Hopefully they figure out something.

elly63 Aug 2, 2022 1:33 AM

Thought some of you might find this interesting

3900 miles (the longest single microwave network in the world) 139 microwave towers, about every 30 miles, costing $50 million. beginning the service July 1, 1958.

Video: CBC: The Marvellous Microwave Network

thurmas Aug 3, 2022 6:28 PM

Cfl ratings last week as per 3downnation. Lions-riders 700,000 viewers. Alouettes Ticats 353,000 on TSN. Alouettes president Mario Mancini said team is averaging 200,000 viewers on RDS per game. Bombers Stampeders 607,000. Argos Redblacks 428,000.

elly63 Aug 3, 2022 7:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9692905)
Cfl ratings last week as per 3downnation. Lions-riders 700,000 viewers. Alouettes Ticats 353,000 on TSN. Alouettes president Mario Mancini said team is averaging 200,000 viewers on RDS per game. Bombers Stampeders 607,000. Argos Redblacks 428,000.

Thurmas, I appreciate your posts but it would be nice if you would include confirming links to credit your source and also provide proof for down the road to the naysayers that the league isn't dead yet. Your quote came from here, where did the Cecchini quote come from? That would be useful information to have.

thurmas Aug 3, 2022 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9693001)
Thurmas, I appreciate your posts but it would be nice if you would include confirming links to credit your source and also provide proof for down the road to the naysayers that the league isn't dead yet. Your quote came from here, where did the Cecchini quote come from? That would be useful information to have.

Normally I would but just working as we speak so unable to. Folks can go to 3downnation to verify alouettes number was in the 3downnation podcast closer to the end of it

Acajack Aug 3, 2022 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9693001)
Thurmas, I appreciate your posts but it would be nice if you would include confirming links to credit your source and also provide proof for down the road to the naysayers that the league isn't dead yet. Your quote came from here, where did the Cecchini quote come from? That would be useful information to have.

Not sure where it came from but it's pretty consistent with what I have always heard.

The Alouettes average 200k on RDS in so-so years, but are more in the 250k range during their better seasons when they are more in the public eye.

elly63 Aug 3, 2022 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9693030)
Not sure where it came from but it's pretty consistent with what I have always heard.

The Alouettes average 200k on RDS in so-so years, but are more in the 250k range during their better seasons when they are more in the public eye.

I wasn't doubting Thurmas (or you Acajack), I am looking for the official source, I'm listening to the podcast and will post if/when I find it.

elly63 Aug 3, 2022 8:55 PM

Now we have some definitive proof about Alouette ratings. Dunk mentions at 37:35 that Als President Mario Cecchini tweeted that the Als have averaged around 200k viewers so far this season.

The 3down guys again making the case for Sunday games over Thursday as well.

JHikka Aug 4, 2022 1:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9689386)
I read today fox is paying the USFL 150 million over 3 years on their TV deal for 8 teams which is almost 2 million more per club then what tsn is paying the CFL these days. CFL needs to diversify their content providers

Sure, who do you suggest? Sportsnet is busy with Jays all summer and CBC has no funding.

thurmas Aug 4, 2022 2:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9693534)
Sure, who do you suggest? Sportsnet is busy with Jays all summer and CBC has no funding.

I think sportsnet could find a slot for 1 game a week and Global would be another option too.

elly63 Aug 4, 2022 2:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9693546)
I think sportsnet could find a slot for 1 game a week and Global would be another option too.

Part of the rumours back when Rogers got in on the Argo purchase was they were looking for content and a CFL Game of the Week would likely be part of that. Still a mystery why Rogers did become involved, they must have had a reason.

esquire Aug 4, 2022 2:45 PM

I don't think there is a lack of interest in the CFL's rights among other broadcasters. When you're pulling in half a million viewers a game for the regular season, you'll find a taker. The CFL simply made a conscious decision to go all in with Bell/TSN on the basis that it is worth more to the league, even if they have to pay a price in terms of decreased visibility to some extent.

Djeffery Aug 4, 2022 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9693588)
Part of the rumours back when Rogers got in on the Argo purchase was they were looking for content and a CFL Game of the Week would likely be part of that. Still a mystery why Rogers did become involved, they must have had a reason.

I'm not sure how MLSE works, whether Rogers has a veto on things like this or not, or if they were simply outvoted by the 2 other partners who had originally purchased the Argos and later rolled it into MLSE. At the time, it was said that becoming part of MLSE would help the Argos in terms of marketing and ticketing and off-field things like that. Which as the last 5 or so years has shown, that didn't really help.

JustForTheHalibut Aug 4, 2022 9:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9692905)
Cfl ratings last week as per 3downnation. Lions-riders 700,000 viewers. Alouettes Ticats 353,000 on TSN. Alouettes president Mario Mancini said team is averaging 200,000 viewers on RDS per game. Bombers Stampeders 607,000. Argos Redblacks 428,000.

I'm not surprised that the Lions had the highest viewership last week.

JHikka Aug 4, 2022 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut (Post 9694169)
I'm not surprised that the Lions had the highest viewership last week.

Highest weekly CFL viewership is usually tied to Riders games.

elly63 Aug 4, 2022 10:26 PM

It's interesting to ponder how many more viewers the CFL gets from casual viewers in Quebec on RDS. If the Als have been averaging 200k, I'd be interested to know how many watch the other teams 10k, 20k, 50k? That number would certainly add to showing the value of a still valuable property. And of course that would also turn Alouettes-Ticats 353,000 into possibly 500k, taking into consideration some eyes might be watching TSN in Quebec instead of RDS

elly63 Aug 4, 2022 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut (Post 9694169)
I'm not surprised that the Lions had the highest viewership last week.

I can't imagine if the bandwagon for Rourke hasn't started yet. As the 3d article said he is appointment viewing (I'll speak for myself on that)

EpicPonyTime Aug 6, 2022 5:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9694170)
Highest weekly CFL viewership is usually tied to Riders games.

Last week's game definitely got a higher audience due to Rourke. Lions' games have been doing well all year because of him.

The League has a genuine attraction with him. Why they aren't getting him in Tim Hortons ads with Crosby and Davies is beyond me.

VANRIDERFAN Aug 6, 2022 1:58 PM

Rogers trying to limit competition? Say it ain’t so!🤣
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...rtc-complaint/

JHikka Aug 6, 2022 4:26 PM

Noticed a few Jays fans in Minneapolis for the Jays series there. :hmmm:

esquire Aug 6, 2022 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9695541)
Noticed a few Jays fans in Minneapolis for the Jays series there. :hmmm:

A lot of Jays fans from NWO, Manitoba and Sask make the trip to Target Field for that series. It's an annual event for many.

elly63 Aug 8, 2022 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9689169)
The 3downnation folks are starting to ask why there are no games on CTV and trying to promote Sunday games in the summer, both subjects need to be explored.

https://i.imgur.com/yDEMahY.png

JHikka Aug 8, 2022 5:15 PM

I think there would need to be a breakdown on people who would prefer to attend games on Sunday nights versus people who would prefer to watch games on TV on Sunday nights. For TV i'm sure it would be better but i'm not convinced Sunday night crowds would be conducive in most markets (for CFL or other leagues). Consumers typically prefer to stay at home on Sundays in preparing for the workweek, so things like streaming services and TV typically do best on Sunday.

For physical attendance I think it would be a tough ask, to say nothing of the schedule being more heavily-weighted to Sundays in June/July/August and then suddenly shifting September-onwards as the NFL starts. There's a lot to be said for consistent home scheduling throughout the year to create consistency and reliability in consumers.

jonny24 Aug 8, 2022 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9696823)
I think there would need to be a breakdown on people who would prefer to attend games on Sunday nights versus people who would prefer to watch games on TV on Sunday nights. For TV i'm sure it would be better but i'm not convinced Sunday night crowds would be conducive in most markets (for CFL or other leagues). Consumers typically prefer to stay at home on Sundays in preparing for the workweek, so things like streaming services and TV typically do best on Sunday.

For physical attendance I think it would be a tough ask, to say nothing of the schedule being more heavily-weighted to Sundays in June/July/August and then suddenly shifting September-onwards as the NFL starts. There's a lot to be said for consistent home scheduling throughout the year to create consistency and reliability in consumers.

I think there would be a huge difference depending on kickoff time. Sunday afternoon I would love, evening not so much (for attending).

TV - evening would be a bit better.

There really is a conflict between "doing stuff" time and "staying home watching stuff" time.

JHikka Aug 10, 2022 7:18 PM

Rob Williams
@RobTheHockeyGuy
Attendance numbers from the first day of the #WorldJuniors in Edmonton.

The three games combined for just 1,635 fans:
Czechia-Slovakia: 430
Latvia-Finland: 376
USA-Germany: 829


Chalk this up to whatever you like - matchups, timing, summer, Hockey Canada scandals, but the numbers are the numbers.

Combine this with the lack of on-ice and board sponsors at the venue and you get what can only be described as a disappointing event for Hockey Canada, TSN, and the IIHF in what is otherwise the biggest annual money-maker for HC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZw9LpiU...pg&name=medium

thurmas Aug 10, 2022 7:23 PM

Yeah with it summer time and the scandals right now not surprised at all its turning out like this.

esquire Aug 10, 2022 7:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9699161)
Rob Williams
@RobTheHockeyGuy
Attendance numbers from the first day of the #WorldJuniors in Edmonton.

The three games combined for just 1,635 fans:
Czechia-Slovakia: 430
Latvia-Finland: 376
USA-Germany: 829


Chalk this up to whatever you like - matchups, timing, summer, Hockey Canada scandals, but the numbers are the numbers.

Combine this with the lack of on-ice and board sponsors at the venue and you get what can only be described as a disappointing event for Hockey Canada, TSN, and the IIHF in what is otherwise the biggest annual money-maker for HC.

I don't get what's going on. I get that it's summer and people aren't thinking about hockey, plus the terrible Hockey Canada headlines have left a bad taste in peoples' mouths. And did all the package buyers from Christmas demand refunds?

But that said, the organizers could easily improve the optics by ratcheting down the ticket prices somewhat. Sure they might not take in more gate receipts if they charge $20 a pop, but at least they might have a shot drawing a few thousand people and not dealing with the optics of playing in front of a totally empty arena. This has to be more than disappointing for the organizing stakeholders... it's a disaster.

I'll be curious to see how Team Canada's games do.

thurmas Aug 12, 2022 7:15 PM

World juniors averaging 890 fans a game so far ouch!!! I think U Sports football draws better crowds these days.

esquire Aug 12, 2022 7:15 PM

^ U Sports football doesn't charge two hundred bucks a ticket to watch the home team

thurmas Aug 12, 2022 7:53 PM

Another learning experience for hockey canada glad to see this bitting them in the ass like this

thurmas Aug 17, 2022 11:36 PM

https://3downnation.com/2022/08/16/r...gs-in-week-10/

Following the worst week on television for the CFL in 2022, the Saskatchewan Roughriders returned from a bye to boost ratings on TSN in Week 10.

Cody Fajardo totalled three touchdowns as the green and white won 34-23 in Edmonton, the Riders’ second victory over the Elks this season. Saskatchewan improved to 5-4 and sent Edmonton to 2-7 during the first year with Chris Jones back as head coach in the Alberta capital. The Roughriders have secured the season series between the two teams and are in the crossover playoff spot well ahead of the Elks.

It was the Riders’ fifth game of the regular season schedule with 600,000-plus viewers tuning in. Only one other CFL game has gone over that number, Winnipeg’s showdown with Calgary in Week 8. Saskatchewan has been the TV ratings champions for many years running and the Roughriders’ presence pushed the three-down league to its second-best average week this year.

The Alouettes upsetting the previously undefeated Blue Bombers brought in a respectable number as well. Canadian kicker Marc Liegghio missed a 32-yard field goal at the end of regulation and Montreal prevailed 20-17 in overtime. It was a tightly-contested game with neither team holding more than a one-score lead at any time, which created intrigued and helped the total audience.

Canadian quarterback Nathan Rourke leading an unbelievable comeback at McMahon Stadium was the third-highest rated contest despite being the most exciting. Rourke brought his B.C. Lions back from 15 points down in the second half to win 41-40 on a last-second field goal by Sean Whyte.

2022 Week 10 TV ratings:

Thursday
Montreal at Winnipeg — 591,900

Friday
Toronto at Hamilton — 433,900

Saturday
B.C. at Calgary — 454,400
Saskatchewan at Edmonton — 610,200

Total Week 10 average: 522,600

(These numbers do not include viewership from RDS, TSN’s French-language affiliate, which has averaged approximately 200,000 viewers for Alouettes games in 2022.)

elly63 Aug 18, 2022 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9705325)
(These numbers do not include viewership from RDS, TSN’s French-language affiliate, which has averaged approximately 200,000 viewers for Alouettes games in 2022.)

I assume not just Als games are on RDS. Can anyone offer an educated guess on how many RDS viewers there might be for the games not involving the Als.

Good to see 3down including the RDS stat.

thurmas Aug 18, 2022 4:45 PM

Apparently WWE is considering Netflix in its bid for rights to smackdown and raw with Netflix new ad tier they want to get into live sports. Also Netflix bid on right the rights to formula 1. If they are able to land these then the sports landscape maybe even more inclined to leave traditional broadcasters who are slowly dying off for failure to innovate ie tsn and sportsnet


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:17 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.