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-   -   [Halifax] Queen's Marque | 30 m | 10 fl | U/C (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=145372)

worldlyhaligonian Jan 23, 2016 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by counterfactual (Post 7309750)
Obviously that's the result of the many wind tunnels created by all the new developments downtown that are over 3 stories. :D

LOL :cheers:

q12 Apr 8, 2016 4:57 PM

So there is now a website up for this with active social media:

http://www.queensmarque.com/

someone123 Apr 11, 2016 12:16 AM

Funny how they're posting stuff but there's no content relevant to the actual development. Maybe renderings or plans will follow soon?

A good development of this spot could be a pretty big deal for the city. The waterfront has a half-finished appearance right now, but it would only take a few new buildings to change that.

Jonovision May 5, 2016 10:22 PM

The agenda for the Design Review Committee meeting was posted and this is on the list. No attachments yet though.

IanWatson May 9, 2016 2:42 PM

Website with renderings is up: www.queensmarque.com

eastcoastal May 9, 2016 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanWatson (Post 7435526)
Website with renderings is up: www.queensmarque.com

Yes - gallery of renderings: http://queensmarque.com/form-and-place/orientation/

Interesting... I like how they're taking the "local" angle on the architecture/design of the thing. I'm not sure how much I like the "sandstone bar" along Lower Water St - it feels a little like a wall and not so much like what might be traditional form of waterfront development with fingers projecting out into the water. Maybe it would be more porous between the street and the boardwalk in real life... maybe it just needs a couple bigger openings in it: I remember seeing historic photos of waterfront halifax that had big arches between Lower Water St. on the city side, and what would have been industrial/working port space on the water side.

Jonovision May 9, 2016 3:24 PM

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_1.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_2.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_3.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_4.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_5.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_6.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_7.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...endering_8.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_10.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_11.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_12.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_13.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_14.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_15.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_16.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_17.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_18.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_19.jpg

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_21.jpg

OldDartmouthMark May 9, 2016 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastcoastal (Post 7435587)
Yes - gallery of renderings: http://queensmarque.com/form-and-place/orientation/

Interesting... I like how they're taking the "local" angle on the architecture/design of the thing. I'm not sure how much I like the "sandstone bar" along Lower Water St - it feels a little like a wall and not so much like what might be traditional form of waterfront development with fingers projecting out into the water. Maybe it would be more porous between the street and the boardwalk in real life... maybe it just needs a couple bigger openings in it: I remember seeing historic photos of waterfront halifax that had big arches between Lower Water St. on the city side, and what would have been industrial/working port space on the water side.

Arches would add visual interest along with a vestige to its history as a working waterfront. Might be tricky to incorporate into the design as is, but would be worth a look IMHO.

Here's the Irving arch circa 1942:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/image.../200900742.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gKMkwrw.jpg

https://novascotia.ca/archives/EastC...ves.asp?ID=384

Interestingly enough, there was some discussion on retaining the Irving Arch in 1980, but obviously it didn't come to fruition (see page 11 of the pdf: http://www.halifax.ca/archives/Halif...06p262-282.pdf).

Here's how it looked around that time, as shown on the Noticed In Nova Scotia blog from Oct. 6, 2015 http://halifaxbloggers.ca/noticedinn...he-waterfront/:

http://halifaxbloggers.ca/noticedinn...PICT0013-1.jpg

Here's another, which if I am reading this right, was in the same location later occupied by the Irving arch:
Quote:

The Plant Steam Ship Company was located at the foot of Sackville Street, on the waterside of one of the numerous downtown 'arches' leading from street to wharf, all of them now long gone from the urban landscape. The firm of Thomas J. Egan sold guns, fishing tackle and sporting goods, and it was in that building that the fire began.
https://novascotia.ca/archives/image.../199900146.jpg

https://novascotia.ca/archives/Halif...ves.asp?ID=146

Another at Black's Wharf:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/image.../200714152.jpg

https://novascotia.ca/archives/Notma...ives.asp?ID=52

OldDartmouthMark May 9, 2016 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanWatson (Post 7435526)
Website with renderings is up: www.queensmarque.com

Very interesting design. I think it looks good overall, and I applaud the use of higher quality materials.

I am curious as to how they will finish the copper, as it will turn that green colour if not protected by a clearcoat or other means.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._City_Hall.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_architecture

teddifax May 9, 2016 4:54 PM

I think it is growing on me, just a few comments. Again another development with a flat top. If they had just stepped up the roof level so as not to be just one flat level, I think that would've worked much better. Also, I like the angled walls on the Lower Water St. side to break up the walls and I wish they would've carried that through to the waterfront side. I find this side facing the water, almost blunt/bleak, it needs another design element to break from the wall of building you see from the water. Another thing I am wondering is there is a lot of open land that could be better utilized. The ramp up to the Light Feature is nice, but other than viewing what will it's purpose be and also the common areas/boardwalk, I feel could have hookups for water, power, etc to be access via underground connections for temporary setups or like Stillwell did last year, have a beer garden there. It seems like a great open area, but wasted space at the same time.

counterfactual May 9, 2016 5:01 PM

Phenomenal proposal and design. Is there a timeline on this? As in, this century?

Keith P. May 9, 2016 5:13 PM

I really do not like the structure facing Water St. The building appears bulky and massive there, and with the Dominion building across a very narrow street it will make that stretch very enclosed-feeling, dark, and canyon-ish. The design of that building looks almost institutional in nature, almost like a 1950s federal govt building. I think that stepping down the heights as they get closer to the harbour is exactly the opposite of what is needed here.

Did they state whether these will be rentals or condos? I assume it is all residential and not commercial space?

Not sure about this at all.

Drybrain May 9, 2016 5:33 PM

I kind of like the massiveness of the facade facing Water Street, but the red protuberances are excessive.

But I think the harbour-facing side is terrible. Ugly colour scheme, doesn't seem to integrate into the boardwalk stroll, blocks the best buildings in town (Dominion, AGNS, et. al.) from view. The inner plaza area looks like it will attract all the vitality of an office-building plaza (though the stairs leading down into the water are very cool).

Really not sure about this.

portapetey May 9, 2016 6:02 PM

Kinda love-hate for me.

I agree with everyone's feedback to date.

I think it's a very cool design. But not sure it fits the waterfront well.

The monolithic "sandstone bar" could be broken up more, with a big arch, or even being split into two separate buildings, and a bit of variation across the roof height would be nice.

The finger protuberances are a bit overwhelming. I gather you can walk through / under them and don't have to trace a route all the way around them, but I feel they break up the boardwalk nonetheless.

I think I like the coloured blocks, angles though.

Again, I kinda love the building. Imagine it on a university campus, surrounded by grass and trees. Just not sure how well it integrates with the waterfront.

Drybrain May 9, 2016 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portapetey (Post 7435805)

I think it's a very cool design. But not sure it fits the waterfront well.

...

Again, I kinda love the building. Imagine it on a university campus, surrounded by grass and trees. Just not sure how well it integrates with the waterfront.

The waterfront context is the main problem for me. I do really think it's too jumbled and the colour scheme is unpleasant, but overall I agree, it's not a bad building, It just overwhelms the context. I can easily see this turning into a wall that stops pedestrian flow. The shacks that are there now are nothing special, but they also contribute to a lot of activity and make it the liveliest part of the boardwalk, with all the small uses and the public congregating areas, and the vistas you can get of city and ocean.

Here you're just gonna be surrounded by what looks like an interior plaza in a slightly dated office complex. (Love the stairs though.)

OldDartmouthMark May 9, 2016 7:01 PM

In addition to the points mentioned, one thing that will suffer is the ability to have temporary entertainment venues on the site. I recall several instances where tents or stages were set up with live music on site. If this is going to be mostly residential, I expect the noise complaints would start coming in and put an end to such events, even if they could physically fit a venue there.

Regarding the other concerns expressed about the building. I agree that it is too blocky but am not sure that architecture in 2016 is ready to yield something that isn't either glass or rectangular in effect. The fact that they are using cladding that is actual stone and copper (and granite, but it appears that granite will only be used in stairs?) is a step up for my expectations.

Also, I'm assuming that the ground floor will contain some retail that could contain similar businesses as the shacks do now. The renderings make the whole ground floor seem somewhat stark, but I can't imagine the final product being as such.

I was hoping for something better, to be honest, but realize that overall it could be worse. It could have looked like Doyle Block...

Keith P. May 9, 2016 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 7435816)
The shacks that are there now are nothing special, but they also contribute to a lot of activity and make it the liveliest part of the boardwalk, with all the small uses and the public congregating areas, and the vistas you can get of city and ocean.

Here you're just gonna be surrounded by what looks like an interior plaza in a slightly dated office complex. (Love the stairs though.)

I don't mind losing the shacks. They are dated and part of what I do not like about the Disneyfied waterfront. Having said that, though, this now takes away a lot of open space for things for visitors to do when they visit, along with wiping out the existing parking. I know that's a dirty word but that lot is always full, and much of it is used by visitors, not office workers. In any event I wonder what this will do to the waterfront/boardwalk experience for locals and visitors alike. And for 3-4 years that entire area will be off limits.

The other thing this does - not a bad thing - is make the Maritime Museum instantly look mickey mouse (to continue the Disney theme) and dated. It is just so out of place both in size and design next to this. It needs a major re-do. I also wonder if anyone is thinking that perhaps it is time to do some harbor infilling around the Ferry Terminal and the little park behind the Law Courts to expand them both by moving out further into the harbor. They too now look out of place and insignificant.

Keith P. May 9, 2016 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark (Post 7435889)
I was hoping for something better, to be honest, but realize that overall it could be worse. It could have looked like Doyle Block...


It could well be that Armour just hired better artists to do the renderings. They certainly made the narrow canyon of Water St this will create look like anything but that.

OldDartmouthMark May 9, 2016 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7435964)
It could well be that Armour just hired better artists to do the renderings. They certainly made the narrow canyon of Water St this will create look like anything but that.

What? Are you suggesting that developers have renderings done that will alter the view of the surroundings such that it makes the project appear much better than the final product will be? :hmmm:

eastcoastal May 9, 2016 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark (Post 7435667)
Arches would add visual interest along with a vestige to its history as a working waterfront. Might be tricky to incorporate into the design as is, but would be worth a look IMHO....

Yes, the images you showed were what I was remembering.

I agree, I think a recreation of some of those arches would be awkward. Enlarging some of the passages between the water and street sides might be enough, without having to introduce the roundness of an arched top

eastcoastal May 9, 2016 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7435732)
I really do not like the structure facing Water St. The building appears bulky and massive there, and with the Dominion building across a very narrow street it will make that stretch very enclosed-feeling, dark, and canyon-ish. The design of that building looks almost institutional in nature, almost like a 1950s federal govt building....

I totally agree. It's an odd fit where I expect to have finger-type developments reaching into the harbour with openings between that provide much less of a wall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7435732)
...
Did they state whether these will be rentals or condos? I assume it is all residential and not commercial space?...

They don't state apartments vs. condos - at least not in what I read, but they do list office space in their grandiose description of the "district."

From the website: "WORK: The commercial space is designed to be one of the most progressive office buildings in the country and will have a distinct Atlantic Canadian character. Queen’s Marque is a place to work and think that is different from other spaces in the City. With the sea almost touching the expansive windows, it facilitates a balance between productivity and creativity. Much like the culture of Nova Scotia."

But wait, there's more: "LIVE: Halifax Harbour is your living room within the residences at Queen’s Marque. Living space is pressed up against the ocean in the centre of the Queen and Cable district. The location and appointments will be unrivaled within the City and of the utmost luxury. The interiors will speak to traditional Nova Scotian craft, materials and design in a modern and contemporary application."

And a hotel... "STAY: Queen’s Marque will feature Atlantic Canada’s first ultra-luxury class boutique hotel. Guest suites will be finely appointed with Nova Scotian design and décor. Visitors will experience the finest regional hospitality amongst comfortable and beautiful, distinctly Atlantic Canadian, ocean side rooms."

What about everything artisinal you ask? "EAT: njoy a locally brewed craft beer while sitting in the warm Nova Scotian sun, surrounded by the dark blue ocean, in the centre of our City. Queen’s Marque will feature several local restaurants and cafes that strive to prepare dishes inspired by our region using fresh ingredients grown in Nova Scotia."

Let's not forget boutiques... they're being "curated" for your pleasure... "EXPLORE: Boutique style shopping and services with a distinct focus on locally made and sourced products. Retail and cultural space at Queen’s Marque is being curated with the intent to support local businesses and showcase artisan wares and high-end fashions that are unique to Atlantic Canada. Cultural feature provides Nova Scotia historical and artistic experiences within the district."

eastcoastal May 9, 2016 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 7435816)
...
Here you're just gonna be surrounded by what looks like an interior plaza in a slightly dated office complex. (Love the stairs though.)

If I've seen anything that might be Stairs of Death™, it's those

Drybrain May 9, 2016 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastcoastal (Post 7436121)
Living space is pressed up against the ocean in the centre of the Queen and Cable district. The location and appointments will be unrivaled within the City and of the utmost luxury.

Queen and Cable district? What the hell is that?

Keith P. May 9, 2016 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 7436132)
Queen and Cable district? What the hell is that?

They just made it up, using the hype machine they clearly have acquired.

Murphy's is on the Cable Wharf, I believe? And this is on what was once the Queen's Wharf. Hence the name. Not that anyone actually ever called that area by such a name.

Ziobrop May 9, 2016 10:58 PM

i wrote a history of queens wharf last year
http://halifaxbloggers.ca/builthalif...-queens-wharf/

portapetey May 9, 2016 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastcoastal (Post 7436121)
I totally agree. It's an odd fit where I expect to have finger-type developments reaching into the harbour with openings between that provide much less of a wall.



They don't state apartments vs. condos - at least not in what I read, but they do list office space in their grandiose description of the "district."

From the website: "WORK: The commercial space is designed to be one of the most progressive office buildings in the country and will have a distinct Atlantic Canadian character. Queen’s Marque is a place to work and think that is different from other spaces in the City. With the sea almost touching the expansive windows, it facilitates a balance between productivity and creativity. Much like the culture of Nova Scotia."

But wait, there's more: "LIVE: Halifax Harbour is your living room within the residences at Queen’s Marque. Living space is pressed up against the ocean in the centre of the Queen and Cable district. The location and appointments will be unrivaled within the City and of the utmost luxury. The interiors will speak to traditional Nova Scotian craft, materials and design in a modern and contemporary application."

And a hotel... "STAY: Queen’s Marque will feature Atlantic Canada’s first ultra-luxury class boutique hotel. Guest suites will be finely appointed with Nova Scotian design and décor. Visitors will experience the finest regional hospitality amongst comfortable and beautiful, distinctly Atlantic Canadian, ocean side rooms."

What about everything artisinal you ask? "EAT: njoy a locally brewed craft beer while sitting in the warm Nova Scotian sun, surrounded by the dark blue ocean, in the centre of our City. Queen’s Marque will feature several local restaurants and cafes that strive to prepare dishes inspired by our region using fresh ingredients grown in Nova Scotia."

Let's not forget boutiques... they're being "curated" for your pleasure... "EXPLORE: Boutique style shopping and services with a distinct focus on locally made and sourced products. Retail and cultural space at Queen’s Marque is being curated with the intent to support local businesses and showcase artisan wares and high-end fashions that are unique to Atlantic Canada. Cultural feature provides Nova Scotia historical and artistic experiences within the district."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 7436132)
Queen and Cable district? What the hell is that?

It's the CtPaTown.

Not sure if you can embed video like you can photos (ETA: You can!):

Video Link

someone123 May 10, 2016 4:28 AM

Overall it looks pretty interesting to me. I like that it's not another blue or green glass building. It has a big footprint but there are openings for pedestrians on the ground level and the enclosed design is intended to cut down on wind to make the plaza area more hospitable for a larger part of the year. I could see it being a more useful space than the open lot that's there now, even if it is smaller.

Good or bad this also strikes me like a development more characteristic of a large and modern city. I like this a lot more than the small town Maritime kitsch stuff that exists along parts of the waterfront. Halifax seems to be entering a new "grown-up" phase. Then again, is that glass tower thing an imitation lighthouse? :)

beyeas May 10, 2016 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 7436440)
Overall it looks pretty interesting to me. I like that it's not another blue or green glass building. It has a big footprint but there are openings for pedestrians on the ground level and the enclosed design is intended to cut down on wind to make the plaza area more hospitable for a larger part of the year. I could see it being a more useful space than the open lot that's there now, even if it is smaller.

Good or bad this also strikes me like a development more characteristic of a large and modern city. I like this a lot more than the small town Maritime kitsch stuff that exists along parts of the waterfront. Halifax seems to be entering a new "grown-up" phase. Then again, is that glass tower thing an imitation lighthouse? :)

I tend to agree, and at this point I am trying to focus on the significant positives that are in this proposal. In particular, it is awesome to see a development that plans to build using sandstone and copper. It does indeed seem to speak to a "grown up" phase of building, where developments actually look to integrate quality rather than just quick and easy construction. Clearly the design does need some tweaking, given the cavern effect of the wall on water street and the fact that at least in the renderings it seems to restrict easy flow into the plaza area. However, on the whole I think they should be congratulated for trying to do something different. The water street heaviness of the design and trying to make the plaza more visually accessible can be fixed, but having a developer use quality materials is something that they should be congratulated for.

PS: I am not 100%, but after reading more I think that glass "tower" is a placeholder for a public art installation (which admittedly could still end up being an unfortunate lighthouse). Regardless I found that tower distracting in some of the renderings, especially the one where people appear to be floating in it!

Keith P. May 10, 2016 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyeas (Post 7436526)
PS: I am not 100%, but after reading more I think that glass "tower" is a placeholder for a public art installation (which admittedly could still end up being an unfortunate lighthouse). Regardless I found that tower distracting in some of the renderings, especially the one where people appear to be floating in it!

Perhaps it is a zero-gravity obelisk.

I'm sure skateboarders will love the ramp downhill from it.

teddifax May 10, 2016 12:37 PM

I was wondering that about the ramp, but it appears to be stepped down.

beyeas May 10, 2016 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7436545)
Perhaps it is a zero-gravity obelisk.

A zero gravity obelisk I could get behind. A lighthouse, not so much!

mleblanc May 10, 2016 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7436545)
Perhaps it is a zero-gravity obelisk.

I'm sure skateboarders will love the ramp downhill from it.

I believe it's steps, with the developer intending on using it as a public amphitheatre.

IanWatson May 10, 2016 12:48 PM

I'm fully in support of this development because it means we finally get that teleportation beam to the moon that Halifax so desperately needs:

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_17.jpg

Drybrain May 10, 2016 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 7436440)
Overall it looks pretty interesting to me. I like that it's not another blue or green glass building. It has a big footprint but there are openings for pedestrians on the ground level and the enclosed design is intended to cut down on wind to make the plaza area more hospitable for a larger part of the year. I could see it being a more useful space than the open lot that's there now, even if it is smaller.

The shacks along there now are kitschy, but they also create a varied and useful collection of businesses and that bit of the waterfront is always well used. It's a great example if how easy it is to create lively civic space very easily. I don't see an boutique-ultra-super-luxury (blah blah) mega-complex retail space succeeding in that way. I said somewhere else that it looks austere and boring, like somewhere office workers will take their brown-bag lunches.

My other big concern is the interruption of the visual flow up and down the boardwalk, which could discourage pedestrian movement through the space and and interrupt the movement north and south along the boardwalk. Maybe separating the "wharf" buildings from the centre block and creating a continuous open-air passage (rather than just the "porous" building frontage) would help with that. The wharves could then connect with the main building via sky-bridges or something.

And I still think the facade of the main building is pretty graceless and the massing of the whole thing lacks symmetry.

connect2source May 10, 2016 12:58 PM

This developments blows me away!! So proud of my old hometown!! The quality of materials is like nothing before and raises the bar! The concept reminds me a little of the Norwegian Opera House in Oslo with the waterfront location and the ramps. This is truly a world class building and will transform the area and set a new benchmark for architecture in Halifax!

Pic : ArchFolios

http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/...psdswztqf6.jpg

Keith P. May 10, 2016 1:06 PM

Everyone's favorite journo Tim Bousquet craps all over this today:

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featu...y-may-10-2016/

A sampler:

"Regular readers will know to read such pronouncements with a grain of salt — besides short-term construction jobs, even the biggest developments “create” exactly zilch in terms of new employment, but rather simply reshuffle existing employment opportunities. Maybe Queen’s Landing will need a bunch of building managers and janitors, and maybe some retail shops and offices in the new development will hire some people, but only because the Maritime Centre (or whatever) finally gives up the ghost and people working there lose their jobs."


So I guess when Tim started the Halifax Examiner, another rag must have shut down?


"Remember when you were a kid and went to the fair and ate three giant cotton candies and two chocolate-covered bananas with nuts and then went with your sister on the Tilt-a-Whirl? Yes, reading that press release is exactly like that. The website is a lot of sickening fun, too, as we learn about “Honest. Authentic” condos, and that, somehow, the developers are promising to dictate what kind of food and drink are served in the new restaurants in the complex"


I find it remarkable that his readers actually pay for this stuff. And more scarily, that many of them seem to believe that what he produces is true.

gypsy May 10, 2016 1:09 PM

As a middle aged Dartmouthian I am somewhat disturbed that the Obelisk is somewhat reminiscent of the Carousel of Death in Logan's Run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSnLU9nyFSA
Of course it will bring the tourists.

http://queensmarque.com/wp-content/u...ndering_17.jpg

beyeas May 10, 2016 1:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain (Post 7436568)
T
My other big concern is the interruption of the visual flow up and down the boardwalk, which could discourage pedestrian movement through the space and and interrupt the movement north and south along the boardwalk. Maybe separating the "wharf" buildings from the centre block and creating a continuous open-air passage (rather than just the "porous" building frontage) would help with that. The wharves could then connect with the main building via sky-bridges or something.

Yeah that I was what I was trying to get across in my post above as well. Massing on Water Street aside, the other big issue is how people access and flow through to the plaza space. Right now it really doesn't feel like this would have any continuity with the boardwalk space, and instead is its own separated area. I respect Mackay-Lyons comment about have a sheltered space, but if it is so sheltered that it becomes uninviting to flow through it, then we have effectively a barrier separating a non-contiguous North and South boardwalk area.

eastcoastal May 10, 2016 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7436583)
Everyone's favorite journo Tim Bousquet craps all over this today:

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featu...y-may-10-2016/

A sampler:

"Regular readers will know to read such pronouncements with a grain of salt — besides short-term construction jobs, even the biggest developments “create” exactly zilch in terms of new employment, but rather simply reshuffle existing employment opportunities. Maybe Queen’s Landing will need a bunch of building managers and janitors, and maybe some retail shops and offices in the new development will hire some people, but only because the Maritime Centre (or whatever) finally gives up the ghost and people working there lose their jobs."


So I guess when Tim started the Halifax Examiner, another rag must have shut down?


"Remember when you were a kid and went to the fair and ate three giant cotton candies and two chocolate-covered bananas with nuts and then went with your sister on the Tilt-a-Whirl? Yes, reading that press release is exactly like that. The website is a lot of sickening fun, too, as we learn about “Honest. Authentic” condos, and that, somehow, the developers are promising to dictate what kind of food and drink are served in the new restaurants in the complex"


I find it remarkable that his readers actually pay for this stuff. And more scarily, that many of them seem to believe that what he produces is true.

To be fair, I think some of what he points out is pretty funny: a pre-occupation with being local (I DO really appreciate that the architects are local, something that's missing from the Convention Centre, and sorta missing from the library where the headliners were fancy come-from-aways who were supported by local joes) contrasted with illustrative photos that are the antithesis of local.

OldDartmouthMark May 10, 2016 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyeas (Post 7436595)
Yeah that I was what I was trying to get across in my post above as well. Massing on Water Street aside, the other big issue is how people access and flow through to the plaza space. Right now it really doesn't feel like this would have any continuity with the boardwalk space, and instead is its own separated area. I respect Mackay-Lyons comment about have a sheltered space, but if it is so sheltered that it becomes uninviting to flow through it, then we have effectively a barrier separating a non-contiguous North and South boardwalk area.

I think that's a valid concern, actually. I've often wondered if the Marriott Hotel is the reason that waterfront pedestrian traffic pretty much stops at the north end of the boardwalk, even though it continues around the perimeter of the building. The hotel feels like a barrier to the pedestrian rather than a continuation of the boardwalk.

That said, there's not much to do beyond there, except to go to the casino (which is more easily accessed through the pedways IMHO). So it may not be blamed entirely on the hotel's layout.

Keith P. May 10, 2016 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark (Post 7436672)
I think that's a valid concern, actually. I've often wondered if the Marriott Hotel is the reason that waterfront pedestrian traffic pretty much stops at the north end of the boardwalk, even though it continues around the perimeter of the building. The hotel feels like a barrier to the pedestrian rather than a continuation of the boardwalk.

That said, there's not much to do beyond there, except to go to the casino (which is more easily accessed through the pedways IMHO). So it may not be blamed entirely on the hotel's layout.

When the Marriott was built in the early '80s, was there even a boardwalk?

The entire thing is ill-conceived IMO. This is one of my long-standing complaints about the ballyhooed waterfront. The newer sections at the south end are better because they were actually conceived from the start as a boardwalk, but there is little of interest along the way. Once you hit Summit Place there are more points of interest but there are a number of dipsy-doodles you need to take along the way or else you will tumble into the harbour. Then you hit the Ferry Terminal area and Historic Properties and it all falls apart. A narrow passage behind the terminal leads you into a bottleneck behind that little park, then you bang square into the ill-conceived food court building that makes you go inside it to pass through unless you want to go all the way around. Then the former Bluenose slip at Historic Properties requires another detour before you run into the Marriott and pretty much the end of the line. I think the whole thing needs a rethink. Not that it should be a completely straight line but there are a number of changes that are needed to improve flow and make it more welcoming.

counterfactual May 10, 2016 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyeas (Post 7436595)
Yeah that I was what I was trying to get across in my post above as well. Massing on Water Street aside, the other big issue is how people access and flow through to the plaza space. Right now it really doesn't feel like this would have any continuity with the boardwalk space, and instead is its own separated area. I respect Mackay-Lyons comment about have a sheltered space, but if it is so sheltered that it becomes uninviting to flow through it, then we have effectively a barrier separating a non-contiguous North and South boardwalk area.

This is a very good point; I like the design overall, but it needs to be opened up so it's inviting for people to continue walking through the main plaza onward along the waterfront without having to zigzag out along the wharfs.

Also the massing on the main block needs to be reduced in the center -- if not separated totally than maybe have a low connector there, so it doesn't look like this monolithic block all along there. Needs some variation there.

Drybrain May 10, 2016 3:26 PM

I think the Historic Properties boardwalk and patios work pretty well, and the rest of the boardwalk does too, but the ferry terminal disrupts the flow between the two, and the Historic Properties suffer as a result.

The Marriott doesn't work at all. As far as I'm concerned, the waterfront ends at the Lower Deck, though it does technically extend to the casino. (Hey, why don't we blow up the casino and put Queen's Marque there? Talk about Maritime kitsch...)

OldDartmouthMark May 10, 2016 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith P. (Post 7436705)
When the Marriott was built in the early '80s, was there even a boardwalk?

I can't remember for sure, but I don't think that there was a boardwalk in the area when the (then) Sheraton Hotel was built. I'm pretty sure it was an afterthought.

Quote:

The entire thing is ill-conceived IMO. This is one of my long-standing complaints about the ballyhooed waterfront. The newer sections at the south end are better because they were actually conceived from the start as a boardwalk, but there is little of interest along the way. Once you hit Summit Place there are more points of interest but there are a number of dipsy-doodles you need to take along the way or else you will tumble into the harbour. Then you hit the Ferry Terminal area and Historic Properties and it all falls apart. A narrow passage behind the terminal leads you into a bottleneck behind that little park, then you bang square into the ill-conceived food court building that makes you go inside it to pass through unless you want to go all the way around. Then the former Bluenose slip at Historic Properties requires another detour before you run into the Marriott and pretty much the end of the line. I think the whole thing needs a rethink. Not that it should be a completely straight line but there are a number of changes that are needed to improve flow and make it more welcoming.
Great points. I've never been a fan of how bleak it feels walking around the back of the ferry terminal behind the Law Courts building (which wouldn't break my heart if it were some day torn down and replaced) and then having to go through the old food court building is preposterous. The dock with the criss cross pattern behind the hotel is a nice space, and I've never understood why they haven't done something more with it, like having food vendors or something (awesome spot for a Stillwell-type beer garden, except for the possibility of drunks falling off the pier). Building the boardwalk out in the old Bluenose docking area would alleviate that bottleneck and perhaps allow the Lower Deck to extend its patio somewhat as well - then carry the walkway straight through to link up with the one behind the hotel better. :hmmm:

So, yeah, a complete revamp should be done of the north end of the boardwalk, and it could become a great place to spend an afternoon (though admittedly, it's still quite popular as-is).

Boardwalk on Bing Maps birdseye view

Ziobrop May 10, 2016 4:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastcoastal (Post 7436671)
To be fair, I think some of what he points out is pretty funny: a pre-occupation with being local (I DO really appreciate that the architects are local, something that's missing from the Convention Centre, and sorta missing from the library where the headliners were fancy come-from-aways who were supported by local joes) contrasted with illustrative photos that are the antithesis of local.

Noel Fowler Did the Nova Center - He is local, though he is associated with IBI (which is based in Toronto)

The fluf about the development is pretty meh - so Tim was right to mock it. as for this - MLS is known for their modern vernacular. im not sure im seeing it in this. I generally like it - but the ramp thing on the pier with the art tower bit needs to go. just leave us a straight pier.

Keith P. May 10, 2016 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark (Post 7436777)
The dock with the criss cross pattern behind the hotel is a nice space, and I've never understood why they haven't done something more with it, like having food vendors or something (awesome spot for a Stillwell-type beer garden, except for the possibility of drunks falling off the pier). Building the boardwalk out in the old Bluenose docking area would alleviate that bottleneck and perhaps allow the Lower Deck to extend its patio somewhat as well - then carry the walkway straight through to link up with the one behind the hotel better. :hmmm:


I was told back in the '80s that the dock you refer to near Purdy's was massively overbuilt by the Navy way back when and was designed to withstand a nuclear blast. Although what you would do with it afterwards is perhaps a moot point. Still, I agree that it seems woefully underutilized.

teddifax May 10, 2016 5:29 PM

There was a proposal MANY years ago for that concrete pier, but it was shot down as it wasn't wide enough to provide fire protection should the need arise to have fire engines on that pier. I can't remember the proposal, but I think it involved townhomes being built on it.

someone123 May 11, 2016 12:24 AM

The Historic Properties wharves have a similar configuration as far as the circulation of pedestrian traffic is concerned. I don't think they are much of a barrier, and the courtyard space is arguably the most architecturally interesting spot along the waterfront. It also functions pretty well as an event space; a larger courtyard would be better and that's what the new development has.

I agree somewhat with the massing complaints but then again variety is important too. Most of the waterfront, Bishop's Landing included, feels too low slung and open if anything (the Salter block is a huge open space). Windswept park-like waterfronts are a dime a dozen whereas this development is somewhat unusual for North America.

Keith P. May 11, 2016 1:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 7437445)
The Historic Properties wharves have a similar configuration as far as the circulation of pedestrian traffic is concerned. I don't think they are much of a barrier, and the courtyard space is arguably the most architecturally interesting spot along the waterfront. It also functions pretty well as an event space; a larger courtyard would be better and that's what the new development has.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Quote:

I agree somewhat with the massing complaints but then again variety is important too. Most of the waterfront, Bishop's Landing included, feels too low slung and open if anything (the Salter block is a huge open space). Windswept park-like waterfronts are a dime a dozen whereas this development is somewhat unusual for North America.
Well, the Salter block is undeveloped space, the last of the old parking lots left from the clearing that took place in the early '70s. Given the glacial place of WDC in getting spaces developed perhaps that will remain that way for the remainder of our natural lives.

It is interesting to look back on 40 years or so of WDC actions regarding the waterfront. I cannot help but feel that it has all been terribly squandered. Nothing built over all that time is particularly impressive or even all that interesting.

counterfactual May 11, 2016 1:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 7437445)
The Historic Properties wharves have a similar configuration as far as the circulation of pedestrian traffic is concerned. I don't think they are much of a barrier, and the courtyard space is arguably the most architecturally interesting spot along the waterfront. It also functions pretty well as an event space; a larger courtyard would be better and that's what the new development has.

I agree somewhat with the massing complaints but then again variety is important too. Most of the waterfront, Bishop's Landing included, feels too low slung and open if anything (the Salter block is a huge open space). Windswept park-like waterfronts are a dime a dozen whereas this development is somewhat unusual for North America.

Always thoughtful, someone123. These are very good points, particularly on the latter re: massing.

I think this would add a very interesting new dimension to the waterfront, which is why I like it overall.

I don't mind the ramp pier at all; again, it offers some variation, a bit of a modern touch. We have regular pier for the rest of the waterfront.


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