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eburress Jun 6, 2012 1:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandiego_urban (Post 5723638)
I don't know, I think Horton is a great place for a market. The Gelson's at Century City mall in LA seems to do fine. Speaking of redo, not sure if anyone has posted this yet:

http://vimeo.com/37195140

Doesn't anybody ever get tired of stucco around here? I know it's cheap, but it looks...cheap. Also, I guess the talk of reorienting the mall to better meet the street/neighborhood isn't happening anytime soon. That would have been a major undertaking, so I'm not surprised.

SDfan Jun 6, 2012 11:17 PM

I'm sorry, but the Horton redo is HORRID!

What makes Horton so special are the distinctive architectural elements that are inside. What this does is turn it into a slightly more vertical Mission Valley or UTC. And those malls aren't any more distinctive then anything else found in Southern California.

Paint the building. Sure. Make it more navigable. Okay. Take out what made it a distinctive, unique, and a catalyst for our center city. UH, hell no!

I don't understand how anyone could watch this without being mortified by the blandness of it all.

But then again, I am in San Diego, home to some of America's most drab, cheap, and caricatured architecture.

This is so disappointing. :(

Derek Jun 7, 2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eburress (Post 5724659)
Doesn't anybody ever get tired of stucco around here? I know it's cheap, but it looks...cheap. Also, I guess the talk of reorienting the mall to better meet the street/neighborhood isn't happening anytime soon. That would have been a major undertaking, so I'm not surprised.

Wow. I thought that was the whole point of the redo. Overall though, I do like that redo. I honestly think Horton Plaza right now is a joke. The new version looks far more "classy" and modern. I like how it's opened up to the sky more. Then again, the finished product will probably not look nearly as good as it does in the video. Time will tell. :ack:

SDfan Jun 7, 2012 2:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 5725471)
Wow. I thought that was the whole point of the redo. Overall though, I do like that redo. I honestly think Horton Plaza right now is a joke. The new version looks far more "classy" and modern. I like how it's opened up to the sky more. Then again, the finished product will probably not look nearly as good as it does in the video. Time will tell. :ack:

Seriously? How is this "classy" or "modern?" This is stucco, boxes, and glass panels in what could otherwise be a glorified strip mall. Literally, this a multi-story strip mall... with billboards to boot!

However, you are exactly right when it comes to Horton right now. It is a joke in terms of layout and decor, but this isn't a solution, this a gutted, stripped, and dull revamp.

Another point where I agree with you though, this rendering will look way better than what Westfield will actually produce. And Mission Valley Mall and Plaza Bonita can prove that to you...

Derek Jun 7, 2012 2:41 AM

It's more classy and modern than what's there now. It's not as 80s funky. And besides, isn't Horton Plaza already filled with stucco? If it's painted white, it doesn't look nearly as cheesy. :ack:

bushman61988 Jun 7, 2012 2:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5725378)
I'm sorry, but the Horton redo is HORRID!

What makes Horton so special are the distinctive architectural elements that are inside. What this does is turn it into a slightly more vertical Mission Valley or UTC. And those malls aren't any more distinctive then anything else found in Southern California.

Paint the building. Sure. Make it more navigable. Okay. Take out what made it a distinctive, unique, and a catalyst for our center city. UH, hell no!

I don't understand how anyone could watch this without being mortified by the blandness of it all.

But then again, I am in San Diego, home to some of America's most drab, cheap, and caricatured architecture.

This is so disappointing. :(


SDFan, I could not agree with you more.

I was pretty disgusted by the extreme blandness in the video, and the terrible Mission Impossible background music definitely didn't help.

Horton Plaza may be complicated and kind of a maze, the European-style with the Black and White Tile and the bright red, and bright blue might seem a little cheesy, but it's so unique! It's what makes Horton Plaza so different, so urban and not the same cookie-cutter malls like Mission, Grossmont, Chula Vista Center, and the rest of the malls in Southern Ca.


I think the biggest problem the mall has might be attracting better stores and business inside, and maybe that's because the stores lack visibility or something... but there's better and cheaper ways to achieve that than basically tearing the interior up and making it another Fashion Valley.

C'mon people! A little complexity, confusion, and getting lost in the mall doesn't hurt every now and then!

HurricaneHugo Jun 7, 2012 3:00 AM

Yeah that's horrible...

Just take down the Sam Goody building and build the plaza.

Maybe open up the mall to the outside later, but don't make it a FV clone

bushman61988 Jun 7, 2012 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 5725601)
It's more classy and modern than what's there now. It's not as 80s funky. And besides, isn't Horton Plaza already filled with stucco? If it's painted white, it doesn't look nearly as cheesy. :ack:

But I don't understand what's wrong with 80's funky look.. is it the color? I know the layout is kinda funky but is the new proposal seriously better than what we have now?

I think the biggest problem with Horton Plaza right now is the lame stores and restaurants.

SDfan Jun 7, 2012 3:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushman61988 (Post 5725619)
SDFan, I could not agree with you more.

I was pretty disgusted by the extreme blandness in the video, and the terrible Mission Impossible background music definitely didn't help.

Horton Plaza may be complicated and kind of a maze, the European-style with the Black and White Tile and the bright red, and bright blue might seem a little cheesy, but it's so unique! It's what makes Horton Plaza so different, so urban and not the same cookie-cutter malls like Mission, Grossmont, Chula Vista Center, and the rest of the malls in Southern Ca.


I think the biggest problem the mall has might be attracting better stores and business inside, and maybe that's because the stores lack visibility or something... but there's better and cheaper ways to achieve that than basically tearing the interior up and making it another Fashion Valley.

C'mon people! A little complexity, confusion, and getting lost in the mall doesn't hurt every now and then!

Thank you! And people are always complaining about how complicated Horton is... Really? If you follow the directories its kind of simple.

This is just so... dumbed down. So mundane and unappealing. It can't be a solution to Horton's visibility problems. This isn't even creative, they've taken a mall found in any Southern California city and applied it to us.

And as a person who works at Fashion Valley Mall, I know for a fact Westfield won't pony up the money that the Simon group did to revamp its San Diego flagship. They're going to pour hundreds of millions into UTC in the coming years (their real potential money-maker, remember La Jolla is right next door, hello!) in order to keep and expand their luxury outlets.

Whatever Horton is going to get will be whatever's left after that. Which, really won't be much because San Diego can't support 2, let alone 3 high end, luxury malls.

But apparently we can support 3 bland LA-style malls.

LosAngelesDreamin Jun 7, 2012 3:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5725645)
But apparently we can support 3 bland LA-style malls.

I think another high end mall can be supported.. ESPECIALLY in downtown.. since so many people from cruise ships, airport and naval base go there to shop... and also.. I actually think LA malls are far more appealing than SD malls... especially with all the renovations LA is doing to em... I'd rather have The Grove, Beverly Center, or South Coast Plaza than the current Horton Plaza, Mission or Fashion Valley malls, or plaza bonita.

I don't think anyone ever said navigating horton was a pain in the ass... i actually love how its maze-like... but the color scheme, and random patterns is just an eyesore TO ME, I like the new revamp whatever because it's simple and it makes the mall look more clean, modern and sophisticated, its perfect for downtown.. nobody is saying make it easily navigable like plaza bonita. And the horton plaza doesn't look very european to me.. its more like a clown's canvas putting this here and there.

It's not attractive... its like putting a Gucci or Fendi store inside a circus tent... not cute.

OneMetropolis Jun 7, 2012 4:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5725645)
But apparently we can support 3 bland LA-style malls.

Lol which malls in LA are those? LA malls are far from bland, and as a native I find Horton Plaza to be a huge hideous embarrassment for the city. Sure it looked great back in the 80's, but now it's out-dated and needs just something else to it. I am sure they can come up with better proposals that could incorporate the unique elements that are already there and that you find so overtly unique and make it better.

eburress Jun 7, 2012 5:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5725378)
I'm sorry, but the Horton redo is HORRID!

What makes Horton so special are the distinctive architectural elements that are inside. What this does is turn it into a slightly more vertical Mission Valley or UTC. And those malls aren't any more distinctive then anything else found in Southern California.

Paint the building. Sure. Make it more navigable. Okay. Take out what made it a distinctive, unique, and a catalyst for our center city. UH, hell no!

I don't understand how anyone could watch this without being mortified by the blandness of it all.

But then again, I am in San Diego, home to some of America's most drab, cheap, and caricatured architecture.

This is so disappointing. :(

That was my exact reaction. The redo is horrible and undoes so much of what was good/positive about Horton Plaza.

SDfan Jun 7, 2012 5:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin (Post 5725682)
I think another high end mall can be supported.. ESPECIALLY in downtown.. since so many people from cruise ships, airport and naval base go there to shop... and also.. I actually think LA malls are far more appealing than SD malls... especially with all the renovations LA is doing to em... I'd rather have The Grove, Beverly Center, or South Coast Plaza than the current Horton Plaza, Mission or Fashion Valley malls, or plaza bonita.

I don't think anyone ever said navigating horton was a pain in the ass... i actually love how its maze-like... but the color scheme, and random patterns is just an eyesore TO ME, I like the new revamp whatever because it's simple and it makes the mall look more clean, modern and sophisticated, its perfect for downtown.. nobody is saying make it easily navigable like plaza bonita. And the horton plaza doesn't look very european to me.. its more like a clown's canvas putting this here and there.

It's not attractive... its like putting a Gucci or Fendi store inside a circus tent... not cute.

Please, Horton had a Louis, and lost it. The cruise ship industry is bust for at least three more years, downtown attracts conventioneers not international, or even national wealth. Do you think Marines and Naval personnel are shopping for Gucci and Prada? And, least we forget, San Diego is a family destination, where shopping involves finding sunblock, beach towels, and San Diego t-shirts and knick-knacks.

I've been in retail quite some time, and believe me, San Diego has no fashion sense. Labels involve Old Navy, Kohl's, and Target in this town. Its only now we are getting at least some clout in our malls, with Fashion leading the way (kind of).

And I'm not saying that LA malls are bad, just that they're all very similar in style and scale. Its an old and tired concept, like brick-facade revival ballparks, and cable stay bridges. Not original, not engaging, nor respectful of Horton's past. This revamp is as old in style as the paint on Horton's walls.

PS, "clean, modern and sophisticated" is what gave us our civic center in the 1960's, and take a look at that hulking disaster on B and C street... Yet it may well be "perfect for downtown," as we've proven our [lack of] taste can yield such wonderful pieces...

:rolleyes:

SDfan Jun 7, 2012 5:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneMetropolis (Post 5725706)
Lol which malls in LA are those? LA malls are far from bland, and as a native I find Horton Plaza to be a huge hideous embarrassment for the city. Sure it looked great back in the 80's, but now it's out-dated and needs just something else to it. I am sure they can come up with better proposals that could incorporate the unique elements that are already there and that you find so overtly unique and make it better.

They're bland in their uniformity. And I agree with most of what you're saying. Horton needs help, but it doesn't need to be gutted. The solution is to be creative with the space, not tear it's essence out.

mongoXZ Jun 7, 2012 5:57 AM

My take on the Horton Plaza redo: Please don't BUTCHER this gem!

Right now I personally think the color schemes and some of its architectural elements are tacky. But guess what? People thought similar of California Craftsman, googie style, mission revival etc etc. Now we all regret razing some of our most historic buildings in the name of modernizing towards 60's space age brutalism, which is what that video is pretty much proposing.

Let's not make the same mistake with Horton Plaza. It's charming in its own unique way. I mean, where can you find a place like this anywhere?
http://www.ymcanationals2010.org/wp-...rton-plaza.jpg

http://www.inetours.com/San_Diego/Im...Macys_6169.jpg
All images not mine.

What fun is it if you transform all this into that forgettable wannabe-classiness that can be anywhere, USA that the video shows? Westfield better not ruin it!:sly:

Derek Jun 7, 2012 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushman61988 (Post 5725642)
But I don't understand what's wrong with 80's funky look.. is it the color? I know the layout is kinda funky but is the new proposal seriously better than what we have now?

I think the biggest problem with Horton Plaza right now is the lame stores and restaurants.

But I don't understand what's wrong with 80's funky look.. is it the color?

Yes.

I know the layout is kinda funky but is the new proposal seriously better than what we have now?

Yes, in my opinion.

I think the biggest problem with Horton Plaza right now is the lame stores and restaurants.

Also correct.



My main issue when walking around Horton Plaza, is that I feel so trapped inside. It's San Diego, an outdoor space should embrace the sunlight, not have huge pink stucco walls blocking it off and enshrouding the entire mall in a cold shadow. That's why I like the new proposal, it's opens up the mall and allows the sunlight to reach the ground level more, and it does away with all the hideous pink tones. The current Horton Plaza just feels too gimmicky to me. "Hey look at this! Pink! The elevators don't take you where you think you're going! Everything's abstract! YEAH!"

I don't know, I just don't dig it now.

bushman61988 Jun 7, 2012 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 5726337)
But I don't understand what's wrong with 80's funky look.. is it the color?

Yes.

I know the layout is kinda funky but is the new proposal seriously better than what we have now?

Yes, in my opinion.

I think the biggest problem with Horton Plaza right now is the lame stores and restaurants.

Also correct.



My main issue when walking around Horton Plaza, is that I feel so trapped inside. It's San Diego, an outdoor space should embrace the sunlight, not have huge pink stucco walls blocking it off and enshrouding the entire mall in a cold shadow. That's why I like the new proposal, it's opens up the mall and allows the sunlight to reach the ground level more, and it does away with all the hideous pink tones. The current Horton Plaza just feels too gimmicky to me. "Hey look at this! Pink! The elevators don't take you where you think you're going! Everything's abstract! YEAH!"

I don't know, I just don't dig it now.



Haha, I totally understand all your points, especially about the sunlight. But that also I think was the point of the "European" design with alleys and density, to make it more like a central village or something. I mean, if you look at the picture above, you see that on the top floor of Horton Plaza, there's an abundance of sunshine and you get an awesome view of the skyline.

I guess it's simply a matter of opinion, because the pink tones and gimmicky feel give it a unique feel for me.

I'm not saying it doesn't need to be remodeled or even repainted, I'm just saying that the I don't feel the interior needs to be gutted and I feel the new design is too boring and plain.

LosAngelesDreamin Jun 8, 2012 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5725794)
Please, Horton had a Louis, and lost it. The cruise ship industry is bust for at least three more years, downtown attracts conventioneers not international, or even national wealth. Do you think Marines and Naval personnel are shopping for Gucci and Prada? And, least we forget, San Diego is a family destination, where shopping involves finding sunblock, beach towels, and San Diego t-shirts and knick-knacks.

I've been in retail quite some time, and believe me, San Diego has no fashion sense. Labels involve Old Navy, Kohl's, and Target in this town. Its only now we are getting at least some clout in our malls, with Fashion leading the way (kind of).

And I'm not saying that LA malls are bad, just that they're all very similar in style and scale. Its an old and tired concept, like brick-facade revival ballparks, and cable stay bridges. Not original, not engaging, nor respectful of Horton's past. This revamp is as old in style as the paint on Horton's walls.

PS, "clean, modern and sophisticated" is what gave us our civic center in the 1960's, and take a look at that hulking disaster on B and C street... Yet it may well be "perfect for downtown," as we've proven our [lack of] taste can yield such wonderful pieces...

:rolleyes:

Who knows what the military shops for?? who knows what the other tourists shop for?? But i'm pretty sure that if you put fashion valley mall on horton plaza's spot.. they'd do a lot much better... more foot traffic, easily accessible thru transit or car etc. San Diego does have fashion sense.. idk the people you be lookin at or hanging out with... maybe compared to LA or SF yea SD doesn't stand a chance... but SD isn't unfashionable. 1960's was a different time... what may be "clean, modern and sophisticated" then is of course gonna be seen differently today... just like everything else in SD... Coronado Bridge? i find boring.. at the time it was built it was one of the most beautiful... One America Plaza?? ugly In my eyes. and this is coming from a SD native. I'm sorry i don't have a lack of taste so don't say "we" lol that's all you honey.

Yes Horton Plaza is historic, and a landmark blah blah blah.... but it really is outdated... the only thing that still impresses me is the odd levels and spaces that make me go "wtf?" in a good way... not so much with the colors and patterns.... what i don't like about the new revamp is the removal of the domes, columns and arches

if anything... i'd still be happy with just replacing the railings with glass and steel like in plaza bonita or fashion valley.. and repainting everything a better color because to me it just looks really really chalky.. like boring pastel colors. maybe add A FEW LED signs/billboards here and there to add a lil energy or buzz to the area...

SDfan Jun 8, 2012 4:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin (Post 5726943)
Who knows what the military shops for?? who knows what the other tourists shop for?? But i'm pretty sure that if you put fashion valley mall on horton plaza's spot.. they'd do a lot much better... more foot traffic, easily accessible thru transit or car etc. San Diego does have fashion sense.. idk the people you be lookin at or hanging out with... maybe compared to LA or SF yea SD doesn't stand a chance... but SD isn't unfashionable. 1960's was a different time... what may be "clean, modern and sophisticated" then is of course gonna be seen differently today... just like everything else in SD... Coronado Bridge? i find boring.. at the time it was built it was one of the most beautiful... One America Plaza?? ugly In my eyes. and this is coming from a SD native. I'm sorry i don't have a lack of taste so don't say "we" lol that's all you honey.

Yes Horton Plaza is historic, and a landmark blah blah blah.... but it really is outdated... the only thing that still impresses me is the odd levels and spaces that make me go "wtf?" in a good way... not so much with the colors and patterns.... what i don't like about the new revamp is the removal of the domes, columns and arches

if anything... i'd still be happy with just replacing the railings with glass and steel like in plaza bonita or fashion valley.. and repainting everything a better color because to me it just looks really really chalky.. like boring pastel colors. maybe add A FEW LED signs/billboards here and there to add a lil energy or buzz to the area...

Wait. Pause.

First paragraph, whatever, get to that later. Second and third more importantly, I don't really disagree with you.

The odd levels, spaces, nooks, and whimsy of Horton is something that needs to be saved. If you had read my posts from before, you'd know that the removal of Horton's distinctive architectural features are my main issue. Not the paint color, railings, etc. Do what you will with those details, just don't destroy the distinctive layout.

As for the billboards, LED or not, those are going to have a harder time being approved with downtown already having strict guidelines on such advertisements.


PS, if you have eyes and notice what retail we do have in our region's malls predominately (low to mid-level) versus what we don't have (credible high fashion boutiques), then from there you can correlate those observations back to what people (locals, tourists, or otherwise) are buying and supporting.

AKA, not much Gucci or Louis, and a whole lot of Pacsun, Sun Diego, and Target. San Diego is laid back about everything, even fashion.

And if you think there aren't aesthetic values to either the Coronado bridge or OAP, but believe this Horton revamp joke is somehow acceptable, then I hope you are not on any design or planning committees in this town. Maybe El Cajon or IB, but not SD, "honey."

;)

eburress Jun 8, 2012 4:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin (Post 5726943)
Who knows what the military shops for?? who knows what the other tourists shop for?? But i'm pretty sure that if you put fashion valley mall on horton plaza's spot.. they'd do a lot much better... more foot traffic, easily accessible thru transit or car etc. San Diego does have fashion sense.. idk the people you be lookin at or hanging out with... maybe compared to LA or SF yea SD doesn't stand a chance... but SD isn't unfashionable. 1960's was a different time... what may be "clean, modern and sophisticated" then is of course gonna be seen differently today... just like everything else in SD... Coronado Bridge? i find boring.. at the time it was built it was one of the most beautiful... One America Plaza?? ugly In my eyes. and this is coming from a SD native. I'm sorry i don't have a lack of taste so don't say "we" lol that's all you honey.

Yes Horton Plaza is historic, and a landmark blah blah blah.... but it really is outdated... the only thing that still impresses me is the odd levels and spaces that make me go "wtf?" in a good way... not so much with the colors and patterns.... what i don't like about the new revamp is the removal of the domes, columns and arches

if anything... i'd still be happy with just replacing the railings with glass and steel like in plaza bonita or fashion valley.. and repainting everything a better color because to me it just looks really really chalky.. like boring pastel colors. maybe add A FEW LED signs/billboards here and there to add a lil energy or buzz to the area...

As a Marine on weekend liberty many a time in downtown San Diego, I shopped quite a bit at Horton Plaza - mostly at stores like the Gap and Structure. lol


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