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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

bikegypsy Jul 8, 2014 4:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue (Post 6645326)

Yeah, I know, but it may just be the perception of some corporates way out in Vancouver, unfamiliar with how Ottawa actually works.
Marketing is my industry and it is far more complex than you have expressed it in your post. Trust me, brands hire expert marketers and these people know their data very well. They are well acquainted with the way Ottawa works. Btw, its bilingualism is not some dreamy idea but a fact. Francophones buy more from businesses which offer French services... If French was your mother tongue you would know this.

Marketers like even markets... As homogeneous as possible as well as being close to the national average. The top test city in Canada is Winnipeg; it's the ideal canadian city as it comes the closest to the country's profile... rather conservative with just the right proportions in terms of demographics and it is isolated just enough in order for marketers to properly do research there without having the noise from a large neighboring urban centre which would contaminate the data. Ottawa-Gatineau is a marketer's nightmare for a variety of reasons; to name a few, its too close to Montreal, its population is extremely well educated (this complicates things) and has a complex language pattern. In a nut shell, brands prefer safe homogeneous cities.

ue Jul 8, 2014 6:14 PM
I don't think there is one top test city, but there are a few key test cities - Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, and Moncton.

Acajack Jul 8, 2014 6:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikegypsy (Post 6645732)
Marketing is my industry and it is far more complex than you have expressed it in your post. Trust me, brands hire expert marketers and these people know their data very well. They are well acquainted with the way Ottawa works. Btw, its bilingualism is not some dreamy idea but a fact. Francophones buy more from businesses which offer French services... If French was your mother tongue you would know this.

Marketers like even markets... As homogeneous as possible as well as being close to the national average. The top test city in Canada is Winnipeg; it's the ideal canadian city as it comes the closest to the country's profile... rather conservative with just the right proportions in terms of demographics and it is isolated just enough in order for marketers to properly do research there without having the noise from a large neighboring urban centre which would contaminate the data. Ottawa-Gatineau is a marketer's nightmare for a variety of reasons; to name a few, its far too close to Montreal, its population is extremely well educated (this complicates things) and has a complex language pattern. In a nut shell, brands prefer safe homogeneous cities.
I agree with everything you said.

But... I don't really think that Ottawa airport and its clientele are a significant Canadian outlier as a market niche that someone would want to sell to.

bikegypsy Jul 8, 2014 7:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 6645916)
I agree with everything you said.

But... I don't really think that Ottawa airport and its clientele are a significant Canadian outlier as a market niche that someone would want to sell to.
Well, all companies want to make money, but there's always a level of risk involved. Your comment is too black and white. Why wouldn't brands want to sell to people who have a very good income? In terms of marketing and consumption, airports work on a particular set of parameters. The vast majority of people who eat in airports do so because they have no choice. In this regard, most important is the time spent waiting for a flight; needless to say that hub airports fair much better than 99% o and d ones like yow. At the end of the day, Yow has restaurants and retail. Are these outlets flirting with a profit? Probably. Brands also sometimes use a location with no or even negative returns only for exposure; and since airports attract people with good disposable incomes, this investment is often worth it on the long run. Yes, canadian brands are interested in the Ottawa niche airport market, but Yow doesn't require 7 or 8 restaurants, at least not at the moment.

Acajack Jul 8, 2014 8:56 PM
Mea culpa. The post I responded to that talked about restaurants not being in Ottawa was about the city, not the airport.

I took the discussion off on the wrong tangeant.

Sorry.

Although I still don't think Ottawa is that different a market to the point where restaurants that work in Calgary and Toronto would not work there.

bikegypsy Jul 9, 2014 1:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue (Post 6645326)
If being close to American cities were that big of a hindrance, then Pearson would be a failure.
It's interesting to see Plattsburgh airport (Plattsburgh, NY, about 80 kms from Mtl) call itself "Montreal's US airport" and put pictures of downtown Mtl on its website. They even have a French section on their website and say that 75% of their clientele is canadian.

http://www.flyplattsburgh.com/

Also note that Ogdensburg, NY, population not even 12,000, just 60 kms from downtown Ottawa with direct access via highway 416, has an international airport which just got the green light for a runway extension, thus enabling it to accommodate larger aircrafts.

Nouvellecosse Jul 9, 2014 11:13 PM
People driving to US airports like Buffalo and Plattsburgh to avoid the high fees at Canadian airports makes a real difference. I don't think a slightly larger percentage of people being close enough to make the (very long, tedious) drive to other NA destination is going to be the major factor since being closer would also act to induce a greater overall number of trips to places in NA and Europe compared to the huge distances from Australia. We have so many more places accessible within a 5-7 hour flying time than they do.

If they had to deal with our prices, Australians would no doubt spend more time sitting home.

ue Jul 9, 2014 11:23 PM
Well Albertans don't have any readily available US airports across the border in Montana to exploit, and yet we aren't sitting and stewing more than Ontarians or Nova Scotians.

1overcosc Jul 10, 2014 12:19 AM
It makes me wonder whether some US company is going to choose to build a big airport in some tiny little village just south of the AB border, just to draw in Calgarians. As AB grows such a business case becomes more and more tenable. Even though its 300km there's still some people who'd do it. Syracuse airport has a good amount of Ottawa flyers and it's a comparable distance.

Nouvellecosse Jul 10, 2014 1:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue (Post 6648140)
Well Albertans don't have any readily available US airports across the border in Montana to exploit, and yet we aren't sitting and stewing more than Ontarians or Nova Scotians.
What are you talking about? Are you saying the Alberta has just as great of airline usage per capita as Australia despite the higher fees in Canada?

And NS doesn't have any nearby US airports to exploit. Never in my life have I heard of anyone in NS driving to the US to catch a flight.

ue Jul 10, 2014 2:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse (Post 6648304)
What are you talking about? Are you saying the Alberta has just as great of airline usage per capita as Australia despite the higher fees in Canada?

And NS doesn't have any nearby US airports to exploit. Never in my life have I heard of anyone in NS driving to the US to catch a flight.
No, you stated that if Australians had to put up with higher airfares, they'd be flying less. Canadians in places like Ontario (sorry, not Nova Scotia, please forgive me :rolleyes:) have access to airports in towns and cities right across the border in which they can travel around the US cheaply. The insinuation being that if these Canadians didn't have this option, they'd fly less due to higher airfares, which simply is not true when you look at places like Alberta.

esquire Jul 10, 2014 2:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc (Post 6648225)
It makes me wonder whether some US company is going to choose to build a big airport in some tiny little village just south of the AB border, just to draw in Calgarians. As AB grows such a business case becomes more and more tenable. Even though its 300km there's still some people who'd do it. Syracuse airport has a good amount of Ottawa flyers and it's a comparable distance.
A lot of Winnipeggers drive 230 km to Grand Forks to catch cheap flights to Vegas, Florida and Phoenix (although between the gas and all the extra add-ons Allegiant dings you for I'm not convinced it's worth it unless you have a family of 5 or more). A surprising number are even willing to drive 356 km to Fargo or even in some rare instances 734 km to Minneapolis to catch a flight, so I'm sure there would be some Calgarians willing to drive the 321 km to Sweetgrass International Airport.

I guess the hitch is that the US airports that Winnipeggers like to use are all supported by neighbouring cities and US Air Force bases... it doesn't seem that an airport built solely for vacationing Canadians would be a winning proposition.

Nouvellecosse Jul 10, 2014 3:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue (Post 6648379)
No, you stated that if Australians had to put up with higher airfares, they'd be flying less. Canadians in places like Ontario (sorry, not Nova Scotia, please forgive me :rolleyes:) have access to airports in towns and cities right across the border in which they can travel around the US cheaply. The insinuation being that if these Canadians didn't have this option, they'd fly less due to higher airfares, which simply is not true when you look at places like Alberta.
No, Albertans would simply be flying even more than they do given their higher than national average income. I'm sure if you compare how much Australians fly relative to their income with the same stats for Alberta you will see this. Just because Albertans fly more than the Canadian average doesn't mean their airline use relative to income is that high compared to places where flying is more afforable.

dleung Jul 10, 2014 6:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy (Post 6645298)
Vancouver is a very nice and easy to negotiate airport. It is also, unlike most airports in Canada, very easy to get to by transit as the SkyTrain goes literally to the front door.

It uses a lot of wood which makes it seem more intimate and less sterile like many airports. Some airports due to so much glass and steel have a real institutional feel to them...........you feel like you are navigating a warehouse but not Vancouver.

Pearson is now newer but is still as confusing, disorienting, and sterile as ever. It looks pretty from the outside but like 99% of travellers, I couldn't care less what it looks like outside but rather what the inside feels like and whether I need a Google map just to find my Gate number.
No one who's travelled through the domestic side of YVR would criticize way-finding at Pearson. Pier C alone has 4 different styles of interiors, the only decent part being the original portion from the 60's. Overall an embarrassing and confusing assortment of piece-meal renos and additions. Frustrating because there are many good design elements (tree columns/lights) that just never gets used consistently enough. Instead, you get kayak-shaped beams, glass raindrops, airplane-wing-shaped acoustic baffles, wavy river shaped carpet pattern... yes we get the theme already...

SignalHillHiker Jul 10, 2014 3:12 PM
Lovely compliment for Porter Airlines:

http://www.businessinsider.com/airli...-flying-2014-7

rbt Jul 10, 2014 6:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire (Post 6648385)
A lot of Winnipeggers drive 230 km to Grand Forks to catch cheap flights to Vegas, Florida and Phoenix (although between the gas and all the extra add-ons Allegiant dings you for I'm not convinced it's worth it unless you have a family of 5 or more). A surprising number are even willing to drive 356 km to Fargo or even in some rare instances 734 km to Minneapolis to catch a flight, so I'm sure there would be some Calgarians willing to drive the 321 km to Sweetgrass International Airport.
I know people that will spend $2 in gas to cross town and save 50 cents on a stick of butter. Some people simply aren't very good with money.

Would the number going to alternative airports be equal to 10% of YWG's capacity?

rbt Jul 10, 2014 6:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dleung (Post 6648620)
No one who's travelled through the domestic side of YVR would criticize way-finding at Pearson. Pier C alone has 4 different styles of interiors, the only decent part being the original portion from the 60's. Overall an embarrassing and confusing assortment of piece-meal renos and additions. Frustrating because there are many good design elements (tree columns/lights) that just never gets used consistently enough. Instead, you get kayak-shaped beams, glass raindrops, airplane-wing-shaped acoustic baffles, wavy river shaped carpet pattern... yes we get the theme already...
Can -> US connections (AC both legs) at YVR is one of the worst same-airline connections in Canada. You have to get pretty creative with your bookings to have a terminal change in Toronto; which is the worst connection I've experienced in Canada.

Chicago beats it hands down though with a domestic into Midway and International out of O'Hare. Some travel sites actively push that kind of ticket because they are a couple dollars cheaper and airlines will link the trips. Nothing like 2 hours on a subway between flights.

Nicko999 Jul 10, 2014 6:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikegypsy (Post 6647119)
It's interesting to see Plattsburgh airport (Plattsburgh, NY, about 80 kms from Mtl) call itself "Montreal's US airport" and put pictures of downtown Mtl on its website. They even have a French section on their website and say that 75% of their clientele is canadian.
Burlington, Vermont is a bigger city than Plattsburgh but I regularly fly from there. I can tell you it's just as much Montreal's US airport as Plattsburgh. At least 70% of passengers are Canadians.

harls Jul 10, 2014 6:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbt (Post 6649313)
I know people that will spend $2 in gas to cross town and save 50 cents on a stick of butter. Some people simply aren't very good with money.
A lot of those people make the trip as part of their vacation (so it's justified!)... to buy things that are marginally cheaper at Target, and exclaim to the people back home that they got a deal while they were there..and spent 100 bucks on gas to get it.

Acajack Jul 10, 2014 6:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by harls (Post 6649402)
A lot of those people make the trip as part of their vacation (so it's justified!)... to buy things that are marginally cheaper at Target, and exclaim to the people back home that they got a deal while they were there..and spent 100 bucks on gas to get it.
I've flown to an undisclosed but very popular location in the U.S. from Syracuse for 250 dollars a ticket. Similar tickets from Ottawa or Montreal were about 700 dollars. (All figures are in Canadian dollars.)

When you multiply that by four tickets those are pretty good savings. Even with the gas and the hotel room at the Holiday Inn Express on I-81 we still saved more than 1500 dollars.


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