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hollywoodcory May 23, 2020 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930063)

Still think most of those secondary European routes wont materialize this summer. Especially the likes of ATH, LIS or FCO. I've already expressed my doubts about YYC-FRA as well, although you should be encouraged by the fact they explicitly mention it. No mention of YYC-LHR though.
.

YYC/YOW-LHR was pushed to August. However I'm hearing that FRA is planned for summer, but LHR may not resume until Fall.

At this point, the ball is in WS' court now. They could take advantage and be the sole carrier on YYC-LON this summer.

thenoflyzone May 23, 2020 2:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 8929434)
Federal labour law only covers around 10-15% of workers in Canada.

it's even lower than that. Federal labour standards apply to only 6% of the working population. If you include federal health and safety provisions, it goes up to 8% of the workers.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jo...standards.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jo...rovisions.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8930258)
There are also 4 public transit agencies/commissions that fall under federal jurisdiction. Anyone want to guess which ones?

Transit Windsor, Via Rail, Société de transport de l'Outaouais, OC transpo ?

Djeffery May 23, 2020 2:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930301)


Transit Windsor, Greyhound, Via Rail and Société de transport de l'Outaouais ?

I wanna guess OC Transpo.

thenoflyzone May 23, 2020 3:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8930327)
I wanna guess OC Transpo.

Yeah, I added it at the same time as well. Wasn’t sure if they crossed over to Gatineau. I thought greyhound was private so I removed it. I don’t think it is. Via rail is a crown Corp, but I somehow thought it was public....

Ahh well, proves I’m not perfect....dammit...;)

Tried searching for a list but couldn’t find any....

casper May 23, 2020 4:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00 (Post 8929980)
This is fearmongering. Air Canada or Westjet could declare bankruptcy tomorrow, zero out the shareholders and have the bondholders take over the airline and relaunch in weeks.

Honestly is it?

You have a certain percentage of the fleet that is leased. Will the leasing companies want to continue to leave those aircraft with AC or WS. Who knows. Six months ago, in a bankruptcy they could easily take them back and lease them to someone else. Today maybe not.

The fuel companies, airports, ground handling companies etc. are going to be reluctant to offer terms to a bankrupt airline.

The bondholders are going to have to make a decision. Are they in a better position to liquidate vrs have a stake in a new airline that is going to have a fraction of the revenue that it did a year earlier generated off pretty much the same assets. They will also have to raise operating capital. I don't see it happening without intervention.

Djeffery May 23, 2020 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930330)
Yeah, I added it at the same time as well. Wasn’t sure if they crossed over to Gatineau. I thought greyhound was private so I removed it. I don’t think it is. Via rail is a crown Corp, but I somehow thought it was public....

Ahh well, proves I’m not perfect....dammit...;)

Tried searching for a list but couldn’t find any....

I'm not sure. I only tossed in OC because you suggested Windsor, and OC was my first thought of another transit system that might cross a border. I wasn't sure if Gatineau's did or not. Lloydminster just came to mind as well and might also fit the definition, although I couldn't find any reference to a transit system there in a quick search.

thenoflyzone May 23, 2020 2:06 PM

Found a list of federally regulated companies from 2017.

https://www.monkhouselaw.com/wp-cont...-Employers.pdf

Can't find OC Transpo. The rest are there.

I could have sworn Bombardier was a federally regulated company as well, but it's not on the list. Also find it weird that there are foreign airlines on the list, such as American Airlines and Cathay. On older versions of the list, even Air France is listed.

casper May 23, 2020 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930489)
Found a list of federally regulated companies from 2017.

https://www.monkhouselaw.com/wp-cont...-Employers.pdf

Can't find OC Transpo. The rest are there.

I could have sworn Bombardier was a federally regulated company as well, but it's not on the list. Also find it weird that there are foreign airlines on the list, such as American Airlines and Cathay. On older versions of the list, even Air France is listed.

I would not have expected Bombardier to be federally regulated.

Some of the foreign airlines would have employees in Canada at the airport. Other airlines would contract out to a ground handling company. I believe Cathay at one point in the past even had Vancouver as a base for crew.

whatnext May 23, 2020 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 8927978)
Each airline (domestic and international) are limited to a single weekly flight as per Chinese restrictions. I also believe the airline had to already have been operating when the restrictions when it place and since AC wasn't flying to China in March, they can't fly at all.

This would also apply to Delta and United who both wanted to resume flying to China in June as well.

Oh OK, so China is basically trying to rewrite the terms of bilateral agreements to advantage their air carriers. No wonder the USA is trying to fight it, hopefully Canada will join in:

Growing tensions between the U.S. and China have expanded to the airline industry as the Transportation Department accused its counterpart in Beijing of blocking American carriers’ attempts to resume service there.

The DOT late on Friday announced that China had violated a bilateral agreement allowing airline service between the two countries by failing to respond to requests by Delta Air Lines Inc. and United Airlines Holdings Inc.

China “impaired the operating rights of U.S. carriers and denied them the fair and equal opportunity to exercise their operating rights,” the department said in a notice posted to a government website.

The order stopped short of imposing any restrictions or penalty on the four airlines from China serving U.S. markets, but is a warning after repeated objections by the U.S. failed to get action, the government said. It requires the Chinese carriers to notify the department of their schedules and any proposed changes they intend. China’s embassy in Washington didn’t immediately respond to an email requesting comment....


https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/u-s-hits...ines-1.1440287

thenoflyzone May 23, 2020 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 8930739)
I would not have expected Bombardier to be federally regulated.

Why not? The company has several facilities in Quebec, Ontario and even BC.

They might not be anymore, since they sold off most of their divisions, and different branches might be incorporated under different names, but it seems they were federally regulated at one time.

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3143150AANGhNW


Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 8930739)
Some of the foreign airlines would have employees in Canada at the airport. Other airlines would contract out to a ground handling company. I believe Cathay at one point in the past even had Vancouver as a base for crew.

That makes sense. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 8930746)
Oh OK, so China is basically trying to rewrite the terms of bilateral agreements to advantage their air carriers. No wonder the USA is trying to fight it, hopefully Canada will join in:

F**ckn right they are. Our government - be it liberal or conservative - has always lacked the backbone to fight in these circumstances. Doubt they will now.

Can't believe there are people on here who want China to have more landing rights here in Canada.

nname May 23, 2020 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 8927978)
Each airline (domestic and international) are limited to a single weekly flight as per Chinese restrictions. I also believe the airline had to already have been operating when the restrictions when it place and since AC wasn't flying to China in March, they can't fly at all.

This would also apply to Delta and United who both wanted to resume flying to China in June as well.

Seems like the March rule had been officially dropped. I guess any airline can now apply and get their 1x weekly service? Maybe WS and TS can get their own 1x weekly service if they really wants to. And from a list of existing carriers operating to/from China, even RV will be allowed since wholly owned subsidiary are treated as a different airline from their parent company. Hell even QK and WO would be allowed if they apply for international operating license and dry lease a plane from their parent/operating company.

thenoflyzone May 23, 2020 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8930784)
Seems like the March rule had been officially dropped. I guess any airline can now apply and get their 1x weekly service? Maybe WS and TS can get their own 1x weekly service if they really wants to. And from a list of existing carriers operating to/from China, even RV will be allowed since wholly owned subsidiary are treated as a different airline from their parent company. Hell even QK and WO would be allowed if they apply for international operating license and dry lease a plane from their parent/operating company.

Based on official documents available online, as far as designated Canadian carriers go, only Air Canada and Cargojet are allowed to operate scheduled passenger or cargo flights between Canada and China.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/transport-agreement/china

Westjet is seeking TC approval to be a designated airline, but hasn't got the approval yet i believe.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ghts-1.4144556

You can forget about TS, QK (a different airline, AC simply has a capacity purchase agreement with QK), and WO.

This being said, considering COVID is bringing a lot of ad-hoc charter - i.e non-scheduled - opportunities, pretty sure any Canadian (or foreign chartered) airline can operate cargo flights to China, with proper requests/approvals. Case in point, the Antonov 225 to YMX, an op spearheaded by Nolinor, or Western Global operating MD-11s from China to YMX, or HiFly A340s from China to YUL.

Examples of non scheduled requests:

Air China: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2020-99

CZ: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2020-89

Xiamen: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2020-72

These explain all the Chinese cargo flights into YVR.

Djeffery May 24, 2020 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930759)
Why not? The company has several facilities in Quebec, Ontario and even BC.

They might not be anymore, since they sold off most of their divisions, and different branches might be incorporated under different names, but it seems they were federally regulated at one time.

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3143150AANGhNW




That makes sense. Thanks.



F**ckn right they are. Our government - be it liberal or conservative - has always lacked the backbone to fight in these circumstances. Doubt they will now.

Can't believe there are people on here who want China to have more landing rights here in Canada.

I work for a federally regulated company and it still confuses me why some are and some aren't. We move things around the country, so I see that. Why would a foreign airline be federally regulated though? They aren't supposed to move stuff around our country, only in and out of it. Likewise Bombardier, why would they have been federal because of multiple locations in multiple provinces, but the thousands of other companies that operate in more than one province, like restaurant chains and retail stores, fall under provincial? Some are very confusing.

thenoflyzone May 24, 2020 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8930848)
I work for a federally regulated company and it still confuses me why some are and some aren't. We move things around the country, so I see that. Why would a foreign airline be federally regulated though? They aren't supposed to move stuff around our country, only in and out of it. Likewise Bombardier, why would they have been federal because of multiple locations in multiple provinces, but the thousands of other companies that operate in more than one province, like restaurant chains and retail stores, fall under provincial? Some are very confusing.

Transit Windsor is federally regulated because they have bus service to Michigan.

Restaurants and retail stores, a lot of them are franchises, so one store doesn't have much in common with another half way across the country, apart from the name. So them not being federally regulated makes sense.

If a foreign airline has personnel in say Vancouver and Toronto, it makes sense to be federally regulated. This way only the Canada labour code applies, and that foreign airline doesn't need to jump through different provincial hoops, so to speak, with regards to the different provincial labour codes.

So you see, it's not that confusing and kind of makes sense when you think about it, at least in my opinion.

casper May 24, 2020 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8930848)
I work for a federally regulated company and it still confuses me why some are and some aren't. We move things around the country, so I see that. Why would a foreign airline be federally regulated though? They aren't supposed to move stuff around our country, only in and out of it. Likewise Bombardier, why would they have been federal because of multiple locations in multiple provinces, but the thousands of other companies that operate in more than one province, like restaurant chains and retail stores, fall under provincial? Some are very confusing.

The foreign airlines that have employees based in Canada would need to follow either Provincial Health and Safety Regulations or Federal Health and Safety Regulations. The same for labour law. If Air France employees in Canada wanted to belong to a union they would be organised and certify under Canadian laws not European laws. The in-flight crew would be different.

I use to work in the Nuclear industry long ago. The approach was the CNSC (nuclear regulator in Canada) was the lead regulator and with work with federal Labour and Occupational Health regulators to ensure a consistent and non-conflicting set of rules imposed on the companies.

The same applies for the airlines. The airlines would have Transport Canada imposing a host of rules on airline operations. Transport Canada would co-ordinate with the relevant other federal ministries to ensure the rules on labor and health-safety were consistent. You want to avoid to situation where there are conflicts in rules between the different regulators.

Dominion301 May 24, 2020 1:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8930301)
it's even lower than that. Federal labour standards apply to only 6% of the working population. If you include federal health and safety provisions, it goes up to 8% of the workers.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jo...standards.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jo...rovisions.html



Transit Windsor, Via Rail, Société de transport de l'Outaouais, OC transpo ?

Ding, ding, ding! That is correct. I said ‘agency’, but of course Via’s a Crown Corp...didn’t want to make it too easy. Nice job.

If Lloydminster ever sets up public transportation, it would become the 5th.

Here’s the list of organizations and companies that are federally regulated as of 2017: https://www.monkhouselaw.com/wp-cont...-Employers.pdf. Obviously in addition to that are the approximately 250,000 public servants.

craneSpotter May 24, 2020 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 8930739)
I would not have expected Bombardier to be federally regulated.

Some of the foreign airlines would have employees in Canada at the airport. Other airlines would contract out to a ground handling company. I believe Cathay at one point in the past even had Vancouver as a base for crew.

Cathay had cabin crew bases in Toronto and Vancouver. They closed the Toronto base in 2019 (120 employees) and announced the closing the Vancouver one (147 employees) by June 2020. I think events in Hong Kong over the past few years had a part to play.

I know of some Cathay pilots that live in the coastal BC region - they are not affected by the base closure AFAIK.

ac888yow May 24, 2020 6:42 PM

Does federal regulation dictate statutory holidays observed? If so, and if Bombardier is federally regulated, I wonder how they got away with having staff in at least one Mtl location work on Canada Day (Tuesday) some years ago.

hollywoodcory May 24, 2020 7:00 PM

Didn't realize how bad AC's domestic network is currently until a friend mentioned they needed to go to Winnipeg. AC wanted to route them YYC-YVR-YYZ-YWG. :haha: They opted to go with WS instead as they still fly YYC-YWG non-stop.

Djeffery May 24, 2020 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8931346)
Does federal regulation dictate statutory holidays observed? If so, and if Bombardier is federally regulated, I wonder how they got away with having staff in at least one Mtl location work on Canada Day (Tuesday) some years ago.

I don't think there is a requirement of when the holiday is observed, just that it is. Many workplaces move Canada Day to the nearest Monday or Friday to make a long weekend. Being federally regulated doesn't play a part in that. Also, many of those federally regulated companies work based on provincial holidays, since that's when their customer base is generally on or off. My employer for example, we work Nov 11 in Ontario even though it's a federal holiday. We don't work on the provincial holiday in August. We don't work on the provincial holiday in February but we don't get paid for it either.


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