I wonder if Amtrak already told Harris & Co to shove it, and that's why we had the Penn's Landing brouhaha.

If Center City is the only real option on Harris' table, then there are really only two available sites that will fit an arena: the 7th & Arch site (advantage for urbanists: pretty much every neighbor is institutional = minimal demolitions), and the VSE onramps at 15th & Vine. The 7th & Arch site would require a significant land assemblage and probably some compromise worked out w/r/t the Headhouse; however, most of the land there is parking lots, and it happens to be surrounded by institutional neighbors: the Feds, Temple Podiatric School, PennDOT, Franklin Square, the prison...It also boasts very easy access from the VSE, making a deep parking garage under the arena viable.

The 15th & Vine site would have to be built around the VSE onramps, will likely require negotiation with PennDOT to be done, is across the street from several residences (most notably the Alexander and Hanover North Broad), and would likely motivate nearby landowners to worsen the existing parking crater in the area, e.g. by pulling down the entire Hahnemann complex in favor of surface parking, but, all things considered, it's still the second best available site in the area, with very convenient VSE access (duh), a one-block walk from Race-Vine, and a ten-minute walk from Suburban Station.

In any event, the City needs to make clear that, whatever Josh Harris wants to do, he can do on his own dime. Getting told No by the DRWC was probably like a splash of cold water on his face, and he's realizing it's not going to be as easy to get the City to pay for his arena as he thought it would be.

To be clear, that's all I really know. Those unknowns are unknown to me as well. My friend isn't directly involved in the construction of the new arena. He's got a job somewhere within the Harris empire of companies and his job relates tangentially to some aspects of the new arena search and I only know what he knows.

The only thing you mentioned as an unknown that I feel like I could comment on is regarding how much the focus will be on non basketball events. I know the answer to that is that significant attention will be paid to the non basketball side of the equation and that data on these types of events was a major consideration in developing their plans specifically related to their downtown location search. Which isn't to say that it will be bad basketball arena. They just are putting the concert part of the equation much more to the forefront than the wells fargo center which famously has terrible acoustics.

Why would an organization that has no money and is barely able to function at all, say no to a potential air-rights windfall? They own all of this land adjacent to one of the densest cores in the country and it's effectively useless to them (other than parking for their contractors)?

Yeah, 90% of the time, if Harris or this front office says something publicly...it's a lie. I don't trust a word he says. Hopefully your source is valid and the argument being made makes sense. Maybe it's just the fan in me, but anything this organization says makes me immediately assume the opposite. Fingers crossed they end up building over the train tracks as part of the 30th Street plan for an extremely iconic location and view (imagine seeing the art museum from a window inside the arena), but really, I dream that they end up with a spite stadium across from Wells Fargo.

Yeah, I agree. There's no way Amtrak would've told the Sixers to piss off. Someone looking to develop they're land which they're generating no money from? Yeah, no way.

Would a move to the Camden waterfront be such a bad thing? I personally would prefer this to the stadium complex.

If you live in PA - which is probably 70% of their fans - yes. I can tell you right now I probably wouldn’t get a 10-game package anymore if they moved to Camden. Too much of a pain in the ass to get to.

Because of the run up to the BF Bridge the closest subway stop is half a mile from the waterfront and the closest off ramp off of 676 is a mile away. And that's a straight path to the river where the aquarium and brand new office buildings already exist. Actual distances would be longer.

It's not as convenient as you'd think. And the area is about as devoid of culture and filled with parking lots as the stadium complex is.

It's a lateral move at best, a negative move even in the eyes of most.

And again, a big part of this is non basketball events, which their research indicates that a downtown location would give them a leg up in the battle with wells fargo. If they move to Camden waterfront they're just one of two area arenas in cultureless parking lot seas and one of two 20,000 seat concert venues on the Camden waterfront.

They're not moving to Camden.

15th and Vine Idea
 

I have not posted on here in ages, but feel compelled to do so. The 15th and Vine Idea proposed by Hamesklivier, is unfortunately utterly ridiculous. The Vine street interchange / overpass would require hundreds of millions in infrastructure redesign. When Blatstein was going to put the casino in the area he was going to re-use the Inquirer building annex. The community college has also built apartment towers on half of one of the lots. Hahnemann will not be torn down as they are trying to get $500,000,000 for it and the lot next door for a condo/apt/hotel complex. S. Yards or 30th street make some sense. The Disney Hole at 8th and Market might be a fit; if they knock down that old building Jeffferson rents space in as alot of the mmedical offices may move to the new hospital at 12 and Walnut anyway.

I'm a proponent of the 8th and Market location. However I'd be very bummed if they knocked down the Jefferson building. It's got a great facade on 9th street and Chestnut. I'd hope that if an arena were to go there, it would keep the facade/general design elements of the building.

https://i.imgur.com/1UzEqWC.png

Hahnemann is the only site other than Penn's Landing, that I know with certainty was actually considered. So not that ridiculous.

Have no idea how seriously it was considered or how likely it is. But i know that they mocked up multiple different layouts for how an arena could fit into the assemblage of properties Hahnemann has over there.

15th and Vine Idea
 

Allovertown, Why would a developer want to pay $500,000,000 for the Hahnemann site and $550,000,000 for infrustructure improvements to build an arena on top of or near that interchange?

:shrug:

I don't have any information other than it was considered. Maybe they don't want to build there after looking into it. Kicking the tires on the Hahnemann site took place well before I heard about the Penn's Landing plan, so maybe they moved on. I'm just saying I wouldn't be so dismissive of the possibility.

Because they expect to use our money to pay for it.

So desperate for something at 8th and Market, sure. The only thing that would really satisfy me at the Disneyhole i multiple 600+ towers with at least some commercial component (residential, in Philly at least, rarely eclipses 500 ft). Obviously, that won't ever happen in my lifetime. The city is deficient when it comes to attracting/retaining large employers and anything that does happen in that regard, SY and the NY are more logical destinations. So fuck it.

My one concern is what impact an arena will have in the area. How many landlords will let their buildings rot to demolish and build a garage? How many existing parking lots that we all hope to see turn into something meaningful, will continue to operate as parking lots?

I suppose an arena can help energize an area but at the same time, it is likely to proliferate parking at the expense of anything better.

And p.s., any project that involves the demo of any existing buildings (esp the one pictured here) to make way for an arena or parking is a big fat NO in my book. Disneyhole is big enough and if it's not enough, then find another site.

+1. If whatever is built in the Disney Hole is < 500 ft, I will be disappointed.

My opinion for the best Sixers arena location: the block bounded by Market, Filbert, 10th and 11th. Yes, the location that just received significant investment as a part of the Fashion District. But that was a gamble and it looks pretty clear that gamble will not pay off (see Century 21 bankruptcy). Despite the recent spending, the current structure is just not worth that much in today's world. And you could keep the other sections of retail and keep retail at street level for this block - build the arena on top. The location is literally connected to regional rail, the trolley lines, the El, and PATCO. The parking capacity already in place for the Convention Center can be used (even more convenient than to 8th and Market). And god it looks ugly as it stands today. Finally, you have the whole of Eastern Center City at your doorstep for pre and post event activities. PREIT - make a deal.

Any plan that gets rid of the Gallery is fine by me.

How many people already work in the area? Drive in to conventions? Are in the area for tourism? Live nearby?

I don't know. I know 19,000 people is a lot and maybe it drives demand for some more parking structures, but there are already multiple garages in the area to serve the significant demand for parking that already exists. Considering Work, convention, and tourist parking demand is generally during the day and events at the arena will generally take place at night, I don't know if this significantly adds to demand for parking at all.

You've already got the giant garage on 8th and Arch that the PPA just refurbished. You've got the giant Gallery Parking Garage between 8th and 9th on Filbert. Another Parking Garage at 7th and Market. There is a huge parking garage under the Independence Visitor Center that is completely empty at night. A giant block bounded by 9th, 10th, Chestnut and Sansom is entirely dedicated to parking including a large garage.

And all of that is within two blocks, a sub 10 minute walk. And that is not even including numerous surface lots in the area. And if you expand beyond to three blocks and mostly still staying within a 10 minute walk, there is also a huge garage at the national constitution center, another big one at the bourse and more parking at the convention center.

This area is loaded with parking. If people weren't motivated to "let their buildings rot" to demolish them for parking previously, I don't think they will be if an arena was built there. Not to mention, you can just zone areas to not allow new parking structures.

Whether or not 8th and Market is a good place for an arena is a legitimate question. But the idea that building an arena there would lead to the sudden destruction of buildings and the proliferation of parking garage does not seem to me, to be a reasonable concern. This area already has tons of people parking in the area during the day and plenty of parking spaces to accommodate them, spaces that largely sit empty when this arena would host events.

At worst you could argue it makes existing garages in the area more profitable, so it's less likely they're torn down and replaced with development. For example, Brandywine owns the garage at 7th and Market and plans to develop it in the future but is running the garage for now. An arena a block away would probably make developing that land less urgent.

If I didn't know the title on this blog, I would assume the Philadelphia sub-forum was populated by car-dependent suburbanites with hard ons for Skyscrapers with no actual interest in how the most vibrant cities actual function.

Making the case that 8th & Market couldn't handle 19K people steps from a subway, a regional rail system, a trolley, 2 highways, and hundreds of blocks of a street grid that emanate out from the facility but yet somehow a facility on Packer Avenue a mile plus from a single subway could is the literal definition of stupidity.

It's exhausting.

The Barclays Center has proven that on top of transit is exactly where you want your arena to be.