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craner Oct 10, 2023 3:57 AM

20-year strategy advances solutions for Central Okanagan transportation
Nothing even remotely ambitious here: :(:hell:

http://https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2023MOTI0152-001513

Metro-One Oct 10, 2023 4:14 AM

Yeah, it’s a complete joke and a real slap in the face to the Okanagan.

I posted this in the Kelowna thread, but it didn’t get a single response from anyone there, so at this time judging from the complete lack of engagement I now feel people get what they deserve…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One (Post 10049148)
Some very, very disappointing results in that study, but not surprising.

Short story, we are not going to see a limited access highway 97 between Peachland and Vernon in our life times, if ever.

Instead we will get short segments of freeways interrupted by urban cores.

In West Kelowna there is a plan to be grade separated between Daimer Drive (interchange) to the current Westside Interchange. Between Grizzly Road and Gosset Rd. doesn't seem to be directly addressed.

Now here is the joke, long term plan for downtown Westbank is to keep the highway at grade along Dobbin Road! Yes, you read that right, an arterial road sandwiched between two expressway sections. All alternate route scenerios have been dropped and wont be studied further...

Oh, and no mention of a tunnel option.


No joke, this is only plan being considered:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c3fe3536_h.jpgjoke1 by Ian, on Flickr

Next is Peachland, and yep, only minor improvements. No alternate route, no four lane expansion for at least 20 years...

After that, through Kelowna, expect no new expressway route, no new second crossing, just a sixth lane added to the existing bridge.... or even cheaper... a counter flow system! Oh god... oh, and unlike before where they said they may make express lanes along the existing corridor in the absence of not continuing the new expressway and bridge option, well, that's also been dropped. Enjoy your traffic nightmare forever!

From there, from the University to the Jammery we will get grade separated free flow again, but done in stages, so don't worry, time wasting money wasting traffic lights will be added first, before full interchanges that we know will likely never happen (seeing how all the expressway plans on paper for decades have now disappeared).

Through Winfield itself north of Commonwealth to Oceola Road is another spot lacking in any real information / plan.

From there, it looks like the 97 could become grade separated standards to Vernon... maybe, apparently doing so would be bad for inclusivity....... now we know who is doing these studies...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cf731516_c.jpgwhatagain by Ian, on Flickr

Somehow adding interchanges and frontage roads in this largely rural stretch along a mountains side is "bad" for affordability, livability and "inclusivity" ... like, how? How is that any worse than a four lane expressway with at grade traffic lights? I would think having local frontage roads would be better for those living in the areas? No????? And not needing to cross a dangerous four lane divided (by median barrier) expressway with people traveling over 100km/h for every trip???

So, there it is, a bizarre hodgepodge of grade separated expressway, two lane arterial, and everything in between!

This is funny though, for some reason some interchanges get double green checkmarks for "inclusivity," livability and affordability, and others in very similar built environments of light industrial get a big old red X??????

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5d99c5d9_c.jpgWhat. by Ian, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...af0c7eb2_b.jpgJoke2 by Ian, on Flickr


In the end, what a joke.

But I guess bus que jumping lanes and some bike lanes will solve all of the 97's traffic problems! Enjoy your traffic nightmare forever! All eggs in one terribly designed basket!

It's equally funny that at the same time the current study for Kamloops' transportation improvements are almost entirely freeway / interchange upgrade considerations for the #1 and #5.

But, whatever, at this point the people of the Okanagan will only have themselves to blame for having hodgepodge highway and transit infrastructure that will be hindering each other forever sharing a single congested corridor with no real cohesive plan. The current Kelowna city council themselves are against a second crossing and are the ones who nixed the Clement expressway plan (which woulld have freed up Harvey to be majorly downgraded to a more local road with a real robust transit backbone).

I always want to add, I was recently looking at Nanaimo’s 20 year plan, and while also underwhelming in timeline, the current plan is still to upgrade the parkway to essentially freeway standards, along with other potential interchange upgrades along the 19, and in Victoria the official plan is still eventually to have the 17 full freeway (one interchange at a time…).

So when it comes to being shortchanged for highway improvements, Kelowna is the bottom of the bottom (Kamloops likely to have the best roads, followed by Nanaimo, Victoria and then Kelowna / Okanagan relative to populations.)

craner Oct 11, 2023 5:51 AM

I can feel your frustration in that post Metro.
It really is unbelievably non-sensical.
How can a project improve transportation in the region and yet hurt affordability ?
How can it improve connectivity yet hurt inclusivity (what does that even mean) ?
How does it hurt livability ? Is crawling through traffic on Harvey more “livable” than being able to take an alternate freeway route and downgrade Harvey as you describe ?

So stupid - who is making these boneheaded decisions ?

(Sorry for all the rhetorical questions).

Metro-One Oct 11, 2023 6:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craner (Post 10056901)
I can feel your frustration in that post Metro.
It really is unbelievably non-sensical.
How can a project improve transportation in the region and yet hurt affordability ?
How can it improve connectivity yet hurt inclusivity (what does that even mean) ?
How does it hurt livability ? Is crawling through traffic on Harvey more “livable” than being able to take an alternate freeway route and downgrade Harvey as you describe ?

So stupid - who is making these boneheaded decisions ?

(Sorry for all the rhetorical questions).

It is beyond frustrating.

At the bare bare bare minimum, since they are still planning to upgrade the section of the 97 between Downtown Westbank and the bridge to freeway standards, and that the 97 between the Okanagan Connector and Downtown Westbank is already freeway standard... that they would have included a plan that at least alludes to a tunnel being built (since they have officially nixed any bypasses of the Westbank town core) in order to have a complete freeflow standard between the connector and Kelowna.

Instead, we will get free flow from the connector to downtown Westbank, at this point cars will crawl though a local street with 4 to 5 traffic lights over a span of 1 KM (thats all that would be needed, a 1 KM long tunnel section) then it will be free flow again for roughly 12.5 KM into downtown Kelowna.

And yeah, the "inclusivity" measure for highway upgrades sounds like some pretty BS contemporary word salad fresh out of university nonsense we need to invent jobs for people with useless majors to me.

VantageHD Oct 11, 2023 6:23 PM

Such a joke! They can't even upgrade the #1 from Hope to Port mann bridge, let alone through Kelowna. That stretch should have been a 4 lane highway years ago but all the government does is limp through projects throughout a persons entire life. They need to actually build things instead of talk and run studies. All it does is waste time and money - what government excels at.

flipper316 Oct 12, 2023 6:46 AM

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/1...ghway-project/

Metro-One Oct 12, 2023 7:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VantageHD (Post 10057249)
Such a joke! They can't even upgrade the #1 from Hope to Port mann bridge, let alone through Kelowna. That stretch should have been a 4 lane highway years ago but all the government does is limp through projects throughout a persons entire life. They need to actually build things instead of talk and run studies. All it does is waste time and money - what government excels at.

The Okanagan / Kelowna area though seems to be especially neglected, even more so since 2016.

The postponement of the plan to widen (with most options being full freeway grade) the 97 through Peachland (the last remaining two lane segment between Penticton and Vernon) to four lanes by at least two decades was an obvious middle finger to the area from the NDP.

In fact, not a single major highway upgrade project has broken ground, or even moved to finalized design / funding, since the NDP took power. That's now 7 years...

Dengler Avenue Oct 14, 2023 1:01 AM

Which one would you prefer though? Being totally ignored, or being totally screwed?
If they're gonna spend money making things worse in Okanagan, I much prefer total neglect.

By the way, what's the minimum required ROW for freeway in B.C.? I thought that I could get away with 40 m, but the design guideline seemed to be hinting at 60 m... (Link: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/t...-survey/tac-bc)

Dengler Avenue Oct 14, 2023 2:28 AM

Meanwhile my attempt at freeway through Revelstoke:
https://i.imgur.com/JwypQ5i.jpg

dmuzika Oct 15, 2023 6:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One (Post 10056155)
Yeah, it’s a complete joke and a real slap in the face to the Okanagan.

I posted this in the Kelowna thread, but it didn’t get a single response from anyone there, so at this time judging from the complete lack of engagement I now feel people get what they deserve…



I always want to add, I was recently looking at Nanaimo’s 20 year plan, and while also underwhelming in timeline, the current plan is still to upgrade the parkway to essentially freeway standards, along with other potential interchange upgrades along the 19, and in Victoria the official plan is still eventually to have the 17 full freeway (one interchange at a time…).

So when it comes to being shortchanged for highway improvements, Kelowna is the bottom of the bottom (Kamloops likely to have the best roads, followed by Nanaimo, Victoria and then Kelowna / Okanagan relative to populations.)

This wouldn't have anything to do with results of the 2020 provincial election and the comparative lack of NDP seats in the Okanagan; or the last Liberal premier being from Kelowna? :runaway:

Maybe that's the inclusion factor. :P

At least the next election is in October 2024.

EDIT: Never mind, I looked at the poll numbers and barring a major development, the NDP will be sticking around for a while.

Mazrim Oct 17, 2023 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue (Post 10059138)
Meanwhile my attempt at freeway through Revelstoke:

Dare to dream - why not bypass the worst parts of Eagle Pass and Three Valley Gap with a new route? You can tell they're gonna drag their feet on widening the highway there, especially along the cliffs at Three Valley Gap.

https://i.imgur.com/xSIvpAS.png

Dengler Avenue Oct 17, 2023 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazrim (Post 10061245)
Dare to dream - why not bypass the worst parts of Eagle Pass and Three Valley Gap with a new route? You can tell they're gonna drag their feet on widening the highway there, especially along the cliffs at Three Valley Gap.

https://i.imgur.com/xSIvpAS.png

I’ve come across your proposal before. Does it require tunnelling through the mountains?
I don’t know the geology of the Rockies well enough to dream like that. :(

craner Oct 18, 2023 5:04 AM

^I like this idea - hopefully it’s not just a dream. The 3-Valley gap section would be a nightmare to expand to 4 lanes.

Metro-One Oct 18, 2023 5:26 AM

The Three Valley Gap will definitely be the most expensive segment per km to upgrade under provincial jurisdiction now that Kicking Horse is wrapping up.

Sure would be nice for the feds to get moving on Yoho Park, but of course it’s now been years since any updates / info has been given. In fact the only piece of news regarding that project from the feds was them saying, “we heard many complaints about the proposed traffic light in Field, but fuck you, that’s what we are doing.”

I don’t mind using a mix of interchanges (urban / major exchanges) and protected-T intersections (rural / low volume) on the #1 through the mountains, but traffic lights? No.

Dengler Avenue Oct 18, 2023 10:44 AM

I wonder if that’s just because it’s B.C. though. In Newfoundland, TCH goes through Terra Nova N.P. If that ever gets twinned, I’ll be curious to see if Parks Canada has the gut to propose a light there. (Apparently TCH in Newfoundland has 0 traffic lights even for those through-the-town stretches.)

Dengler Avenue Oct 19, 2023 1:38 AM

Sorrento:
https://i.imgur.com/XrX9S7P.jpg
Ps: I set aside 60 m ROW for Highway 1 through Sorrento. Then I checked the street view and saw increasing slope on the south side. Maybe the EB lanes will just be slightly higher than the WB lanes.
Blind Bay:
https://i.imgur.com/4bRoyvM.jpg

Metro-One Oct 19, 2023 4:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmuzika (Post 10059601)
This wouldn't have anything to do with results of the 2020 provincial election and the comparative lack of NDP seats in the Okanagan; or the last Liberal premier being from Kelowna? :runaway:

Maybe that's the inclusion factor. :P

At least the next election is in October 2024.

EDIT: Never mind, I looked at the poll numbers and barring a major development, the NDP will be sticking around for a while.

Somehow I feel that just might be a factor...... :runaway:

Metro-One Oct 19, 2023 4:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue (Post 10061581)
I wonder if that’s just because it’s B.C. though. In Newfoundland, TCH goes through Terra Nova N.P. If that ever gets twinned, I’ll be curious to see if Parks Canada has the gut to propose a light there. (Apparently TCH in Newfoundland has 0 traffic lights even for those through-the-town stretches.)

This is one I don't blame on the province, despite the sluggish pace, all the highway 1 upgrades have been decent free flow projects. The federal parks are 100% federal jurisdiction and they do what they want to do.

The lack of any funding for the project is also 100% on the feds.

One good thing the province has done has been focusing on the most challenging sections first, such as the Yoho Canyon, and replacing major bridges.

Dengler Avenue Oct 19, 2023 9:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One (Post 10062529)
This is one I don't blame on the province, despite the sluggish pace, all the highway 1 upgrades have been decent free flow projects. The federal parks are 100% federal jurisdiction and they do what they want to do.

The lack of any funding for the project is also 100% on the feds.

One good thing the province has done has been focusing on the most challenging sections first, such as the Yoho Canyon, and replacing major bridges.

Still, it begs the question why Parks Canada twinned TCH to pretty much freeway standard in Alberta and used T-protected intersection in the first 6 km in Yoho N.P. on the twinned section. :hmmm:

Also, any thought on my (destructive) plan for Sorrento?
I mean, TCH is a route that carries long-distance traffic, so in principle, traffic disruption should be minimal, which warrants freeway design. However, B.C.M.T.I. also believes that highways connect, not bypass, towns. I am just trying to make some compromise here. :D
That said, admittedly, I'm getting into the bad habit of shoehorning freeways in towns... :(

Dengler Avenue Oct 19, 2023 11:06 AM

Field, B.C.
https://i.imgur.com/yzqzwQA.jpg
With mountains to the north and a river to the south, and with Burgess Shales, the geological constraints are real in this area. I can start to see why Parks Canada doesn't want to do the interchange any time soon. :yuck:


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