I hope you didnt think I was calling you a racist or xenophobe, but I think you can agree that a huge percentage of the anti immigration/"Minute Men" crowd definitely fit that bill.

The world is a complicated place, but to me immigration isn't a terribly complicated issue. I've driven all across this country, from San Diego to Sandusky, we've got lots of room for lots and lots more immigrants. Just drive around in Phoenix and look at all of our empty lots, I wish we had more immigrants in our city, creating interesting ehtnic neighborhoods, opening tasty unique restaurants, working their butts off at jobs Im too lazy to do.

If you or I were living in squalor in Mexico, we'd probably break US law and sneak in too. I don't think that makes the immigrants bad people, its the law thats the issue, not the people. We need to figure out a way to 1. allow more people in, and 2. set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work and return home.

But it seems silly to me to say "Well our current laws are broken and silly, lets spend a lot more money, time, resources and effort trying to enforce them."

Hoover, do you really think it is about race, or do you think it is about class?

We don't want a bunch of poor people in our country that we have to support, nor do we want a bunch of criminals. That's not to say all illegals are true criminals (aside from the fact that it is illegal), but if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity.

Every country has immigration laws, and most of them are aimed to limit the number of immigrants to those that are better off. All other things equal, I'd pick a more wealthy immigrant to give citizenship to over a poorer immigrant. Just as you probably enjoy and favor your brother that can pick up the check at dinner when it's his turn or split a case of beer with you, over your brother that's always asking you for money or is the mooch of the family.

I don't get why people always have to pull the race or xenophobe card... to me that's hypocracy. You don't support racial profiling, yet you "profile" anyone that may be in support of the immigration laws as a racist?

Here's another "idealistic inscription" (or saying): United We Stand, Divided We Fall. This partisan bullshit in the country right now is so bad, those on the Left and those on the Right are causing everything to crumble.

When I hear "Minute Men" types using anti Hispanic racial slurs, its pretty hard for me not to assume its a racial thing. Anyone paying attention to the immigration issue has heard a huge amount of racism, I cant imagine how people deny this.

Most illegals try to stay out of trouble w/ the law b/c they don't want to get deported, so most of them aren't criminals. Further, it seems odd to me that someone would risk so much to leave their family, come to the US, go through all the hoops of becoming a citizen, just to be a crook. Im sure it happens, but I don't think in significant enough numbers to worry about.

I can understand the concern about immigrants being a leach on Social Services, an issue that didn't exist as much in the Golden era of Immigration as US Social Services were far more limited. I don't have the answer for that, but the first idea that comes to mind if perhaps some sort of system in which once you get your citizenship you sign an agreement waiving your access to Welfare and the like for 5 years or something.

Sure I'll take the rich guy, but give me the poor hard working guy too. Its not like we're letting in scores of rich, well educated immigrants either, every year we deny access to Doctors, Engineers, Scientists, etc. for a variety of reasons.

Im not profiling anyone. Its pretty easy to call a racist a racist when they use terms like "beaner", "spic", "wetback," etc.

I'm sure you're right, but there are people out there that aren't "minute men" that support this law and I guarantee you aren't racist. This is supported by 70% of Arizonans... you honestly think a "huge amount" of that 70% of the entire state of Arizona are racists?

Again, I'm sure you're right and I agree, however, that's why I said "if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity." Some of the "hard workers" are also criminals... but the main problem and the main criminals are those into human smuggling and coyotes and kidnappings. Not to mention idenity theft, which may be the biggest threat and problem posed by illegals to the majority of us (especially our hispanic/latino citizens).

This is another part of the equation... your idea seems like a good one. :shrug:

The last poll I saw had support at around 50%. I think this law, like many controversial laws has had a lot of misinformation and confusion surrounding it. I don't think most people are racist, but I do think most are so exasperated at the immigration problem they probably think "Well something big has to be done" and this seems like something big.

Yah we'll certainly end up with some stinkers. I mean from my understanding organized crime, street gangs, etc. were a major problem with uneducated, poor immigrants in the early part of the 20th century, but on the whole I think we'd all take the good we got from the immigrants with the bad if we had to do it again.

Plus Im a pasty white red headed guy, Im not too worried about a Mexican stealing my identity :P

EDIT: VVV I haven't seen any numbers that bear that out. In fact most prominent Hispanics, Hispanic groups, and Hispanic community leaders are calling for boycotts of AZ and canceling events here.

If you want to deny a racist undertone to anti immigration fervor, go for it. You're not helping your cause, you're making yourself look silly. Since the days of "No Irish need apply" and before xenophobia has always in part been a racial issue.

You are aware that there are a lot of hispanics which support this, do you not? Are they racist too?

Well said. The analogy used Boston Tea Party to Illegal Immigration is ridiculous.

70% of Arizonans support. 51% of the US favor, while only 39% disapprove.

So if a lot of people support something it becomes a good idea? Those polling numbers aren't really that meaningful because like I said a lot of people currently don't understand the law. There have been numerous articles stating most people are waiting to come down on one side of the fence or the other and get more info before making up their minds.

But I'm glad you backed up your argument with points and didn't just say something was ridiculous out of hand...oh wait, you didn't do that at all.

It shouldn't surprise me one bit that 70% of Arizonans are in favor of the new law. McCain won the state by the same margin. People here elect an endlessly worse series of buffoons to the Statehouse every time. We are 50th in virtually every measure of social progress and most of Arizona is fine with that.

So spare me those stupid statistics of popular opinion. I know what it counts for here and what it's ultimately worth.

Nothing.

"What's right is not always popular, what's popular is not always right."

And I'd be willing to bet the vast majority (75%+) of those that don't understand the law are on the opposition side.

Here's a quote from a major league baseball player I saw on ESPN.com:

"It's a bad thing," said Baltimore shortstop Cesar Izturis, born in Venezuela. "Now they're going to go after everybody, not just the people behind the wall. Now they're going to come out on the street. What if you're walking on the street with your family and kids? They're going to go after you."

This guys is a complete moron and has the mind set that I've seen expressed over and over from the opposition. He thinks, although there is no way in hell that this will happen, that "they are going to go after you" if you're simply walking down the street with your kids. And what the hell does he mean by "going after everybody, not just the people behind the wall"??? I'm assuming he means the border fence/wall, in which case we obviously don't go after people behind the wall.

As if our entire police force is going to suddenly drop everything they normally do and suddenly become like the Nazi SS and go after the illegals (Jews).

Remember that game "telephone" where you get into a circle with a bunch of friends and the person at the beginning says something into their neighbor's ear, then that person says what they heard into their neighbor's ear and it goes around the circle until it gets to the end and the end person ususally says something completely ludicrious, no where near what it started out as? That's like what's going on through the opposition. No one is doing their own research, they're just listening to what their neighbor is saying about it and by now most people are just thinking and saying nonsense. It went from "this law is basically the federal law already in place" to "If a police officer even sees a Latino walking down the street they're going to run after them, beat them with their billy club and throw them in jail.

I'm against this law and hope it goes away simply because I want all those morons out there to just shut the hell up.

Polls are polls. I didn't make it up. I'm just stating what has been published. One should not dismiss what the populace thinks just because they may disagree with the results.

The whole idea that we don't want to bring in unskilled labor is ridiculous and shows how much people misunderstand economics. This country was largely built on the backs of immigrants, and this city has been as well. I'm sorry to call b.s. on people who don't think cheap labor is a good thing, but it is. What people are really angry about is the welfare system, they hate the idea of someone being paid to sit at home. The sad thing is, its poor Americans who sit at home and collect welfare, much more so than immigrants. The last paper I saw that studied the subject found that males over 18 years old who were citizens were employed about 83% of the time (this was a 2004 paper so that numbers would be different). I believe the rate of employment for immigrants who are here legally was 89% and for those here illegally it was 91%. Also, when immigrants have access to services, they access them at a lower rate than Americans do. I think they had those jobs because they worked, and unfortunately too many Americans don't
Crime rate is another false assumption. For adults without a high school education, Americans were committing crimes at a rate almost five times the rate of illegal immigrants. I have never found a single scientifically conducted study that concluded that illegal immigrants committed crimes at a higher rate than Americans in the same demographic. I can give you the link to anyone who wishes to read them.
I find America's current immigration laws insulting to our heritage and a sad sign of American greed. They are designed to keep out the poor who wish to work their way up in the world. My great-grandfather was an immigrant, he worked as a cook and was poor, but he was given a chance. His sons fought in WWII, and my father was given the opportunity to go to college and to be well off, and so was I.

Other immigrant groups were not always popular, but we gave them a chance. Those who were minorities suffered more than others from racism and xenophobia. Now we write laws to prevent people from having the same opportunities many of our ancestors had, the opportunities that gave us the successes many of us have today. As a culture we quietly accept the cheap labor they provide, then gullibly allow them to be scapegoated when it's no longer convenient for us. Too many Americans stand on their high horse saying "illegal is illegal." It's illegal because we have laws that make it illegal to access the opportunities that many of us now benefit from. For years we didn't care because we liked the poor, cheap labor, and now we have this selfish view that we can just change our minds.
Leaving the border wide open is not a valid solution for many reasons. But I don't accept that poor immigrants no longer have a place to be welcomed in this country. Anyone who hides behind the lies that are perpetuated about immigrants, or believes that the well off and educated should be welcomed and the poor denied, I think is selfish and a coward. If that's the America that the people of this country want then I want no part of it.

Don't let the door hit your backside

That's all you've got? His post was fantastic and hit the nail right on the head, especially on the matter of crime. Do you really think that people that are committing crimes (smugglers/kidnappers) give a crap about how tough the immigration laws are? The ones that it affects is the ones that mind their own business anyway because unlike a citizen, who risks getting thrown in jail for a couple nights for a petty offense, an illegal immigrant has much more to lose.

And this is what it all boils down to. The people who are pro immigrant and pro reform try to use well reasoned thoughts and speak like adults. The Xenophobic anti immigrant crowd results to single lines of insults that don't move things forward.

When you'd like to have a discussion at the adult table, let us know. Otherwise its best to zip it.

as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466

I didn't know the point of being a free country was to do everything possible to raise the per capita GDP. We'll always need unskilled laborers and their children and childrens children often go on to great careers in highly skilled fields, so this argument falls pretty flatly on its face under even the most rudimentary of examinations.

i never said that the only point was to raise gdp per capita. thats all you. but certainly a policy of increasing it as well as the standard of living would be better than one that actively decreases it as well as creating ever greater income disparity?

we already have enough unskilled labor, the difference being with immigrants that they are willing to work for near slave wages. and why even wait for the next next generation to become skilled workers when we already have enough here? as for always needing unskilled labor, that is debatable. japan, for example, is developing increasingly intricate robots :cool:

I don't necessarily agree with the gdp per capita part, but the discussion of unemployment is a factor. McCain, before he had to slide way right to defend his seat, talked about having a high fence with a wide gate. I believe our immigration policy should allow for people of more economically diverse backgrounds the opportunity to come here, both for economic reasons and because I believe that represents who America is. I don't know that bureaucrats will ever be able to do this, but in times of economic crisis such as this, I think a responsible and fair response would be to decrease the immigration rate (across the board economically) and to allow for more people to come during times when more jobs are available.

In response to DowntownDweller, you miss the whole point of why I said that. I'm not saying flippantly saying I wish to abandon my country, nor am I literally saying so. Maybe I could have been more specific in my response, but my post was getting long enough as it was. I believe that what makes this country great are the ideas that America was founded upon. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal." Not just Americans, or wealthy people, or smart people, all people. This is an idea that we as a country have struggled with since our inception. At times we have failed but in the long run I believe we have done what is right. I hope that we continue to struggle with this idea. It has allowed America to do great things, to be a great country that people will risk their lives to come to. But if, as I said before, we now only wish to be a country who welcomes the privileged few, and shut out those we who already have so much decide we don't want, then I think one of the great ideas that America was founded upon is dead. That is what I want no part of.
I've worked with poor families and kids since I moved to this city, as a teacher and in ministry. I know a lot of them are undocumented even though they don't say it. I watch them work hard to get an education, I've seen kids as young as 13 who work to help support their family. I've seen them volunteer their time and resources to their community. There are parents who work like dogs and live in ghettos to give their kids a chance. It's not everyone I meet, but it's a lot of them. They are more American than a lot of "Americans" I know. A lot of people make these same people out to be criminals on par with rapists and murderers, even if they were carried across before they were old enough to remember, because they crossed the border. We can handle this problem fairly, and we can move forward with an immigration policy that protects and honors what America is about. I hope everyone can look at the big picture and not see this as a black and white issue, but recognize there are a lot of things that brought us to this point. There is room for blame on all sides. Some people can call me a bleeding heart, but I did my best to research the issue with an open mind and come to my own conclusion. What too often gets spewed from self-serving politicians is rhetoric at best and lies at worst. I'll concede there are negative impacts from people crossing the border illegally, and I think there's a responsible way for people to pay for those crimes. Respectfully, I hope anyone who has an opinion on this issue will take the time to investigate why they hold the views they hold and be willing to at least concede that each side has valid points.

Alright here's my two cents and just bc I may not agree with everyone, don't bite my head off.

The issue isn't about immigration, (and it is definitely not about race, don't be played) it is about undocumented peoples migrating into the US at anytime and the problems, social issues that arise from it.

And yes I do believe that 99% of the migrants good hard working people willing to risk their lives to escape from terrible conditions back home or come here to a strange foreign land just to make a living. Immigration is great, after all, every human being has migrated here, (including the Indians/Native Americans).

It is the arrival of anybody from anywhere with no way to track it where the problem arises. If the new migrants have no documents, then they'll never be able to attain a good high paying job. They will continue to live in the shadows, afraid to contact the police, organized crime (protection fees, extortion, money laundering schemes), working low wage jobs, living in ghettos, paying off Coytote fees, possibly taking up second "jobs" that may or may not include illegal activities just to make ends meet.

Many Hispanic/Latinos actually support enforcement of immigration laws. How are they to move up and advance in society if many of their people cannot attain good jobs and nobody even knows who they are or who is here. For the betterment of their people, their cause, their political pull, it is in their interest for immigration reform and border security.

This is not a racial issue, despite the attempts of the opposition to turn at least half the population against the other half. The law wasn't created because the state legislature hates "brown" people (last time I checked, latino isn't a race). As for the racial profiling claims, if one has been stopped for a crime and they don't have ID, can't speak English, cannot produce SSN, then they should probably be detained until we do find out who they are (post 9/11 reality), this has nothing to do with race, but lets not be ignorant that AZ straddles an international border so many of the arrests will be people from S. of the border and not undocumented Australians.

If the Feds would enforce the laws already written, then none of this would have occurred. The good thing that'll come from AZ's new laws is that it'll force the hand of the Federal Gov't to actually tackle the immigration problem. As quoted from CNN, most of AZ's law is word for word from the Federal law.

When I and everyone else here can afford a maid, and we have Dubai-like skyscrapers because it's that cheap to build them, then we can say we might have enough unskilled labor. Not saying we should have the human rights issue they do, but you can't say we have enough unskilled labor when we can't even begin to contemplate the society we'd have if we actually did.

Is anybody interested in a copy of Paolo Soleri's City in the Image of Man. It's a GIANT book...like maybe 12" x 30" or so. The library is throwing it out. I'll hold on to it if someone wants it.

^ Yes, that sounds really interesting. :)

I like big books and I cannot lie...no other brothers can deny...

:D

--don

You want me to hold on to it for you Don? You can pick it up whenever you're around downtown in the evenings.

So Sheriff Joe has to announce today if he wants to run for Governor. If he decides to, by law he has to step down as Sheriff. I don't think he will decide to run but I sure am praying he does. It would mean we'd finally get rid of him as Sheriff, investigations could be launched to clean up MCSO, and even if he did get the GOP nomination, I think Terry Goddard would clean his clock in the general election, so ole Joe would be out of public office for good. Sadly his handlers probably realize this as well and will advise him not to run.

^ Agreed on all counts.

Glynn, check your PM. :)

--don

Well, a massive chunk of Arizona's population is incredibly ignorant and uneducated. I wouldn't be so sure about him getting destroyed in the election...as disturbing as it may seem, you never know how many votes he'd get.

I think even a good percentage of people who voted for Arpaio as Sheriff would have a hard time voting for a 77 year old, one issue candidate.

^ True, and the far right is already claimed by Bud Mills. :)

--don

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=7HMfBB-tmFa

His traditional will-he-run exercise ended the same way as the previous ones.

I want Goddard to win just as much as anyone else here (I've petitioned for him in Flagstaff, but that's like shooting fish in a barrel all things considered), however, he's too "cerebral" for common people to relate to.

This is like the 2004 presidential election on a smaller, slightly-more idiotic scale: We don't want someone who knows how to fix the state, we want someone who's going to continue to make it legal to harass the brown people.

Brewer doesn't concern me, as I don't think she'll win the primary. I'd be more worried about pitting Goddard against someone like Buz Mills.

Well, I guess we have our answer.

Well tell Goddard, or someone involved in his campaign to get their crap together regarding his website, its atrocious. Look at Mills' website, its much better. It has an 'issues' tab, and you can click and see his stances on various things. Even though their just lame, thoughtless one paragraph blurbs, they're better than the nothing Goddard is putting out there.

EDIT: VV Welp I sent their campaign an email about it, we'll see if they respond/care.

See that's part of the problem. Most of the people I've talked to who work for his campaign down in Phoenix have this "Well, he's smarter than the GOP candidates, so he'll win" attitude, so there's not a whole lot of effort going into the campaign. I haven't heard anything in weeks, and there's hardly any mention of his campaign in the Republic, ever. I know the Democratic primary isn't nearly as crowded as the GOP, but the lack of publicity right now is concerning.

That, and the air of superiority crap from his staffers is going to kill Goddard's campaign in the long run. They're grossly overestimating the intelligence of the average Arizona voter.

immigration realities
 

While I'm still trying to get over Hoovers veiled threat that those who don't agree with him had better zip it, I thought I'd give those not sure what to think a tad bit of direction.

The sad truth is, and Don would agree with this despite having a different take on immigration:

What most Whites, most educated Asians and certian better off Hispanics and Blacks have no realization of is that there exits an entire other world underneath theirs they have no connection to. Unless you've seen it and touched it personally you can only make conjectures about these issues and speak in generalities. There can really be no such thing as a scientific study done on crime and illegal imigration. It would be like trying to pick up a fish in a bath tub full of ky jelly. I can talk about the war in Iraq even though I haven't been there but there are limits to how certain I can be about any of those topics. Unless you've known several personaly, as I have, and have some kind of idea as to how they are situated and conditioned you are really just having a political discussion about immigration and not a substative one.

1. I didnt make any threats, veiled or otherwise.

2. Your argument that unless you have personal experience with a situation you can't weigh in on it is ridiculous. By that logic movie critics shouldn't talk about films unless they've directed one themselves.

3. I've known many illegal immigrant, one of my best friends through High School and college (who now lives in Uganda) and his entire extended family were in this country illegally for about 15 years, I knew them all fairly well. So I guess that 'point' of yours gets piddled away too.

I know a lot of us are fans of SimCity on here so I thought I'd show you the new IBM city management game that is supposed to be a more complex, more adult version of SimCity.

http://gizmodo.com/5530030/ibm-cityo...the-real-world

^^^ Cool. We'll find out soon how good it is.

New York (New Jersey really) was just granted the 2014 Super Bowl at the new Giants/Jets stadium. Bad news for us in the Valley, it would mean the next possible time UofP could host is 2015 though if other new stadiums come online (Im not sure if there are any in the works or not) another AZ Super Bowl could get pushed back further.

Arizona actually pulled its bid from the 2014 game which is fine as due to the Giants new building and all the surrounding negative publicity in AZ we likely wouldn't have gotten it anyway. I do hope we can get another Super Bowl and don't have to wait over a decade between them like we did last time. The more big events like this we can host the better chance Phoenix would have down the line of hosting things like Worlds Fairs and Olympics like I like to dream of.

I like the 2014 choice. Newark is close, 7 miles to Times Sq/Broadway tourist haven and thousands of hotels rooms.

Phoenix (Glendale, which is much farther away from Phoenix {really Scottsdale} than the Meadowlands is to Manhattan and Newark Airport) probably won't host another Super Bowl for quite some time because there isn't much of anything in the entire west side of Phx in terms of lodging and entertainment. Until this is addressed, I wouldn't count on a game anytime soon.

According to Google Maps: From Wild Horse Pass, which hosted a Super Bowl team, to U of P is over 36 miles, up to 1.5 hours in traffic!

I thought they were not even trying for the 2014 super bowl and putting all the eggs in the 2015 basket.

^ Phoenix won't get another Superbowl until SB 1070 is reversed by the legislature or struck down by the courts.

In fact, there's growing evidence that the exodus from Phoenix has accelerated. I predict another 10% drop in sales tax revenues in fiscal year 2010 as the economy continues to retract and perhaps a 5% loss of population just this year alone, for the first time in history.

According to the Census Bureau, Arizona's population influx declined from 188,000 per year in 2005 to 12,000 last year, in 2009. That's a 90% drop in immigration to Arizona. SB 1070 and the other shenanigans might just be the straw that broke Arizona's already wounded economic back.

--don

I'll bet that the pull factors of AZ are stronger than the push factors. People aren't going to avoid AZ because of a local law. Just look at the South. Their populations have never stopped growing and places like NC, VA, GA, FL, TX are leading the way.

If people believe they can make a living anywhere, they'll move there and as long as CA is next door with the high cost of living, AZ will continue to attract people.

While I do agree that the population growth has slowed significantly in the past two years, I disagree that this is a permanent trend. Don't forget that the Earth's population is growing at 70 million/year, so even if AZ doesn't receive one migrant, natural growth alone will continue here.

Affordability + Sunshine= Growth. It's very simple.

The only people that SB 1070 will keep away are mental midgets like Michael Moore and Kanye West. We should all be thankful they don't plan on entering our great state.

These are truly fantastic:

http://brettpassmore.com/2010/05/ari...1070-cartoons/

It is the myopic thinking like this that will lead to Arizona's continued economic misery. Companies, by and large, don't want to locate to such a heavily polarized state, especially one with as shitty of an education system as Arizona's. Low taxes and sunshine can only do so much, and once gas reaches $5 per gallon (coming soon to a filling station near you), cities like Phoenix will be absolutely hammered economically (I should say, hammered more, since Phoenix has already lost 400,000 jobs in the last four years). Unemployment is over 10% and climbing, and tax revenues continue to fall as the economy steadily dwindles. This is a recipe for disaster...

Now we are driving off convention and tourism business. 200,000 more jobs are at risk, according to the travel and tourism industry. More and more countries, cities and states join the boycott on Arizona every day. People vote with their pocketbooks and feet, and Arizona does not have a monopoly on sunshine and affordability. When you make Texas look like a liberal pansy (which is what Arizona is doing right now), then Texas becomes a mighty attractive alternative, not to mention having two larger world class cities, each of which has almost twice the size of Phoenix's rather pathetic economy (metro area GDP).

Right now, Arizona's not generating any jobs to draw any immigrants. Why should anyone move here? The only thing we will attract is white retirees and ignoramuses who want to move some place without those damned furriners messin' things up.

*sighs*


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...1984983575.png
Web Source: http://www.bea.gov/regional/REMDchar....cfm#chart_top

--don

I can almost guarantee that if you had lived here in the late '80s and early '90s (I don't believe you did), that you would have been screaming to anyone that would listen that Arizona was near its death bed. Guess what? It recovered (and people like you moved in). We boom and we bust, but our booms are much longer and much stronger than our busts. Do we need to diversify our economy? Certainly. The same can be said for many a metro region.

What I would consider myopic thinking is someone that can't envison things turning bad when they're going good (think someone living above their means with an adjustable rate mortgage in north Scottsdale in 2005) and one that can't envision things turning good when they're going bad (think of yourself today).

If anything, SB 1070 will help improve our broken school system long-term. Our job situation is showing signs of life (I believe we added nearly 20,000 jobs in April). You're drastically overrating the influence of the mass liberal media's hysteria regarding boycotts (while ignoring buycotts). Saying we make Texas look like a liberal pansy is comical and untrue. Small Government, an entrepreneurial spirit (Libbies wouldn't know much about that), sunshine, affordability, and no threat of natural disasters will continue to be a major draw to more than "retirees and ignoramuses who want to move some place without those damned furriners messin' things up." (Cute Libbie 101 line though).

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think Arizona is terrible and that we're circling the drain and you're clearly miserable here... then move. Really. It's that simple. Do you go to a party and complain the whole time about how boring it is yet stay until lights out?

Not everyone is having a hard time being successful here. Not everyone is unhappy. Not everyone thinks our state has no future. Only the eternally pessimistic tend to be so myopic.

^ I've been here since 1993. Arizona was still recovering from the 1991 recession, but that was very mild compared to the current recession. Now we've gone and made it worse.

And just for the record, since you want to personalize things, we didn't have an adjustable rate mortgage in north Scottsdale in 2005. Our jumbo was fixed with a very low interest rate, because our credit was then quite good. Not that this has anything to do with the subject at hand, and this is particularly low blow on your part, but that's because you can't rationally refute the points I made previously so you trot out the ad hominem including describing me not once, but twice, as a "libbie." I salute you, sir, for helping keep rational discourse alive. Please continue drinking the kool-aid and giving up your constitutional rights so big companies can make more money.

Telling people whose opinions you don't like to just move out isn't going to help Arizona, either in the short-term or the long-term. A lot of people in Arizona are hurting right now. Try not to be so smug...

--don

Didn't claim that you had an ARM in north Scottsdale. Said those that did were living above their means and not thinking ahead properly.

Also never said I want those with differing opinions to move. Rather, I stated that it seems illogical for those that are unhappy to stay in the same place that makes them unhappy.

When it comes to smugness, take your own advice.

Not only are you intellectually dishonest, but now you have resorted to false statements. Since rational debate is not in your bailiwick, let me stoop to your level:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...sam_douche.jpg

By the way, I'm not referring to you. Really, I'm not. *sighs*

--don