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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

JHikka Jul 22, 2017 2:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872449)
You didn't have much to say about this post.

There wasn't much to really add to what you posted. Saskatchewan, Ottawa, and Winnipeg are all bright spots for CFL attendance. Montreal's 18K is a bit of a concern for a team that routinely draws above 20K, and the longterm viability and future renovations of Molson are a talking-point moving forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872449)
How about doing us a favour and mensching up about why you want to kill the CFL.

I've repeatedly said that I don't want to see the CFL killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872449)
It's not going to affect MLS attendance in any way shape of form so why fear it?

There's nothing to really fear about the CFL...i'm mostly concerned with the fact that it's losing numbers at the gate. Teams like BC and Toronto are drawing much less than they used to and you can't tell me that having franchises in two of Canada's three largest centres with declining gates is good for the league. This is a common discussion point over at the CFL forums, and one of the busiest, most popular threads there deals with the issues the Argos are facing with revenue, gates, and general interest. There's also a lengthy discussion revolving around the financial stability and viability of the BC Lions moving forward. I'm not pulling these talking points out of thin air and it's unfortunate you think i'd be cynical enough to create something from nothing.

This constant belief that i'm a pro-MLS, anti-CFL guy is pretty remarkable. I talk a lot about MLS attendance because it's been increasing year-over-year-over-year. It's positive for sport in Canada. I've been talking about the Wolfpack a lot lately and I couldn't care less about rugby as a sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872449)
Do you really think people are so stupid they can't recognize your constant insidiously negative CFL posts and shots. Why the fear?

All I ever seem to get is combative posts from CFL fans accusing me of favouritism. I asked you for bright spots in my previous post and in return I get a reply post essentially attacking my attitude and views. It's a good first step in any productive conversation to say the least.

Again, show me some positive CFL attendance numbers and i'll gladly talk about them. Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa are all bright spots which haven't seen the recent declines in other franchise bases. Ottawa in particular has been a good pickup in a generally solid market for the league, and my anecdotal evidence from around town tells me they're gaining traction in the market. Winnipeg's attendance has been steady with what its historically been but it seems like IGF was built a tad too large to maintain ticket scarcity and proper supply/demand needed in franchise-based ticket revenue schemes. Discussion over on the Manitoba board seems to mention traffic issues but that seems to be blown out of proportion by local media with nothing better to talk about. Saskatchewan is Saskatchewan and likely always will be. Hamilton's got a great new stadium and a revitalizing core which should feed into success for the Ti-Cats.

So, will your reply attack me again or will we be able to have a constructive conversation on this topic without slinging mud?

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872451)
This constant belief that i'm a pro-MLS, anti-CFL guy is pretty remarkable.

Remarkable because it's the truth?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872451)
I asked you for bright spots in my previous post.

You better get your prescription checked if you missed the fact that most of my post was proof of good attendance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872451)
Again, show me some positive CFL attendance numbers

I did, do you need a magnifying glass? Do you want me to repost with a larger font and bold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872451)
So, will your reply attack me again or will we be able to have a constructive conversation on this topic without slinging mud?

Please don't play the martyr you're not a good enough actor.

Just answer a few questions and man up. Do you want the CFL attendance to improve or die? Don't give me any garbage about studying trends and crap. If you lie and say you want it to improve then how do your backhanded remarks and poorly disguised shots help with that end?

And secondly as an MLS guy, are you still a mod in charge of this section? It's like having a wolf in charge of the henhouse. I'd like to know before I get banned.

JHikka Jul 22, 2017 4:26 AM

Again, your entire post is about me. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
You better get your prescription checked if you missed the fact that most of my post was proof of good attendance.

Borderline offensive if I was someone who actually had to take prescriptions for any sort of condition. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
I did, do you need a magnifying glass? Do you want me to repost with a larger font and bold?

Attendances from four games in one week isn't much to really go off of. It's what I was critical of earlier on the MLS attendances from this past Wednesday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
Just answer a few questions and man up. Do you want the CFL attendance to improve or die?

Yes, i'd like to see CFL attendance improve. It hasn't been. This also isn't about manning up. You're on an internet discussion forum for crying out loud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
Don't give me any garbage about studying trends and crap.

This statement is baffling. Studying trends and crap is exactly how the CFL is going to be getting out of its current attendance decline in select markets. It's what the CFL PR department and and its VP marketing consistently discuss. It's why they consistently talk about the 18-49 demographic, about shifting trends in audience capture, and about gauging interest in the league.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
If you lie and say you want it to improve then how do your backhanded remarks and poorly disguised shots help with that end?

What does my personal opinion have anything to do with any of the numbers I post? I can't fake numbers and I can't dictate what direction they go in. I can have an opinion but i'm not really seeing any sort of distinct counter-argument to that fact, merely scapegoating. I post numbers, provide a view, and instead of being offered a counter-view i'm usually accused of being a lie and a hack. Productive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872465)
And secondly as an MLS guy, are you still a mod in charge of this section? It's like having a wolf in charge of the henhouse. I'd like to know before I get banned.

I'm not an MLS guy.
I'm not a mod for this section. That doesn't exist.
You're not going to get banned, although your consistent intrigue in my attitude, presumptuousness, and overall disdain for my posting style is certainly noted. If you don't like it you're free to put me on ignore.

As an addendum to this discussion, here's an article from the Toronto Sun wrapping up what i've been trying to get across to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toronto Sun
But the game also provided evidence of some of the challenges facing a league that has roots dating to about 20 years after Canada was born. After growing steadily in the post-war years until the late 1980s, and a disastrous and failed expansion into the United States in the early 1990s, the CFL bounced back thanks in large part to a national broadcast deal with TSN.

But Montreal’s season-opener, which was more than 3,000 fans short of a sellout, was emblematic of troubling recent trends. While attendance has been excellent in Hamilton’s new stadium, in back-from-the-dead Ottawa and in always-reliable Saskatchewan, the country’s largest markets — Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver — have all seen sharp declines of one sort or another in recent seasons. Even in Calgary, where the Stampeders were historically good in 2016, attendance lagged behind 2015.

Add in the surprise departure of commissioner Jeffrey Orridge this spring, who was only two years into the job and whose split was only ever explained as being over “philosophical differences” with the league’s board, and it’s fair to ask of the one pro-sports league that is unabashedly Canadian: Should the CFL be worried? Or are these just headwinds that the venerable league is figuring out how to overcome?

First, a couple of statements of fact before the discussion. One, the situation in Toronto is so different than anywhere else in the CFL that it merits a separate examination. The Argonauts were thought to be on a short path to an Alouettes-like rebirth with their move to BMO Field last season, but instead attendance was alarmingly poor, the team stunk, and the whole football-operations staff was eventually blown up. But we will leave that for later.

And two, the CFL is in no kind of crisis. The league still has five seasons, including this one, left on a $40-million-per-year broadcast deal with TSN that almost on its own allows clubs to cover their biggest cost: Player salaries. There are dozens of baseball, hockey and basketball teams in the big North American leagues who would love that kind of financial security.

But consider the scene in a Toronto hotel conference room late last year, as Orridge had a state-of-the-league town hall with die-hard fans, the kind wearing vintage CFL jerseys and hardhats with sirens on them and home-made coveralls that said, “Our Balls are Bigger.”

They had questions: What was the league doing about attendance declines? What about attracting younger fans? And the question no one asked: What happens, as the broadcast industry loses cable subscribers, if TSN eventually wants a cheaper deal? What happens, in other words, if the league’s biggest tentpole is chopped down?

Essentially, what's the CFL going to do to improve its situation between now and when the TSN deal ends? Ottawa is a good example of what they could do. Saskatchewan another.

General trending in sports media right now is that TV deals aren't going to be great sources of future revenue increases as TV numbers and markets are tapped out. That is, with declining TV viewership, it should be assumed that future TV deals will decline as such. This isn't solely a CFL-related issue. Online streaming, varying devices, and a multitude of different levels to consume the sport is going to have to be one of the options for future maintenance and growth, and revenue will have to come from them if indeed the TSN contract isn't renewed at a similar level.

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872525)
General trending in sports media right now is that TV deals aren't going to be great sources of future revenue increases as TV numbers and markets are tapped out.

So that basically kills what all you MLS guys are hoping for, a big US network contract like the big boy leagues.

So you base your argument on one article with a sensational headline and keep rehashing it?

Here's some "trends" for you.

TOR/WPG: 636,000
CGY/MTL: 628,000
BC/HAM: 523,000
OTT/EDM: 500,000

CFL TV ratings trending up for the past three weeks. The last three games are below last year's average. But that's still well over 10x the average draw of a regular season TFC game last year which averaged 38,000 in the regular season which is a bad rating for the GTA let alone the ROC.

Look at the Toronto number, notice how many people from Alberta and Saskatchewan were watching it but they weren't watching the hometown Esks, so very strange they prefer the Argos to their hometown team.

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872525)
Borderline offensive if I was someone who actually had to take prescriptions for any sort of condition.

I apologize, I'm sorry I triggered any powerful feelings about myopia that you might have. Next time I'll post a trigger warning.

Berklon Jul 22, 2017 2:36 PM

I figured this news item from the other day should go in this thread as the streaming trend will definitely have a further impact on future attendance and TV ratings:

Live sports streaming service DAZN launches in Canada with NFL Game Pass

DAZN, the Netflix of sports, launches in Canada with exclusive NFL streaming rights

Right now this is an offering for NFL games in Canada, and apparently you'll be able to watch some European soccer leagues as well - but there's a possibility we could be seeing this type of service for other North American leagues in the future - whether it's through DAZN or another provider.

Streaming has been HUGE for movies/TV, but always lagged in offerings for sports... forcing many to use illegal streams instead.

In this particular case Canadians are offered all pre-season, regular season and post-season games... no blackouts at all... all for $20 a month.

I think we'll be seeing increased competition for someone to try to be "the Netflix of sports".

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 4:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 7872665)
Streaming has been HUGE for movies/TV, but always lagged in offerings for sports... forcing many to use illegal streams instead.

In this particular case Canadians are offered all pre-season, regular season and post-season games... no blackouts at all... all for $20 a month.

I think we'll be seeing increased competition for someone to try to be "the Netflix of sports".

I think price points are very important to streaming enterprises. The market they are after are relatively tech savvy people (read most young people) who have likely grown up downloading and streaming music and movies without paying.

I think people will pay if they believe the price is reasonable and fair. In my opinion (and I'm a cheap SOB) the cost of Netflix is fair (I'm not a subscriber). I've read about this sports service and it's cost seems fair.

But I've also read that the Sportsnet service was an abysmal failure. I can't remember the price (29 bucks or more)?

With the skeleton cable package at around 25 dollars, the days of the $200 cable bill are likely coming to an end.

Denscity Jul 22, 2017 6:15 PM

21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 6:19 PM

CFL this week (so far)

Mtl @ Ott
Attendance: 24,756
% Capacity 100.0

Edm @ Ham
Attendance: 23,531
% Capacity 96.8

Wpg @ BC
Attendance: 21,017
% Capacity 76.4 (Using 27,500 lower bowl as capacity)

Ssk @ Cgy
Attendance 30,274
% Capacity 84.9

Ott @ Tor
Attendance 15,801
% Capacity 58.5

18,000 as financial breakeven point

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 6:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 7872733)
21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!

Do you know if they are they opening up the upper deck this year or is it still the lower deck? Everyone is saying it was a great game, I missed it, so I'm heading over to TSN Games on Demand to catch it.

TSN Games on Demand Lions vs Bombers

JHikka Jul 22, 2017 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872610)
So that basically kills what all you MLS guys are hoping for, a big US network contract like the big boy leagues.

I'm not an MLS guy. MLS already knows it's not going to be getting a Big 4 TV contract; that's why it's branching out into services like MLSLive and enhancing viewing potential for those interested in streaming and focusing on things outside of standard cable TV.

It's almost as if you want to see the MLS die or something. We're all in this together. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872736)
18,000 as financial breakeven point

Is there a source on this by any chance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 7872733)
21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!

Indeed. The past two years there was roughly a ~3K drop between home opener and second home game, so it's good to see a rise for the second game out.

GernB Jul 22, 2017 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872739)
Do you know if they are they opening up the upper deck this year or is it still the lower deck? Everyone is saying it was a great game, I missed it, so I'm heading over to TSN Games on Demand to catch it.

TSN Games on Demand Lions vs Bombers

Still just the lower deck so far.

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872838)
It's almost as if you want to see the MLS die or something.

No, but if you want me to tell the truth and not keep my posting motivations hidden I am more than happy to truthfully answer any questions you may have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872838)
Is there a source on this by any chance

Did you read my post?

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GernB (Post 7872858)
Still just the lower deck so far.

Yeah, I saw they had the curtains up when I tuned in the Lions/Bombers on demand.

JHikka Jul 22, 2017 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872890)
Did you read my post?

You posted attendances and capacity utilizations, then claimed that 18K was the breakeven point for CFL franchises. You haven't really provided any sourcing or information on this and i'm genuinely curious if this is a hard figure or one you've pulled out of thin air. I can't find any confirmation of that figure anywhere.

I found this National Post article from a few years ago that attempts to poke around at some numbers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cam Cole
If a team draws 20,000 per game nine times, at an average ticket price of, say, $60, that’s $10.8 million from ticket sales. If the average price is $40, that still $7.2 million at the gate alone, before any other revenue is counted.

As the article further goes on to explain, the TSN TV deal which runs until 2021 provides CFL franchises with ~$5M/year, effectively covering the salary cap of each team. The three publicly-owned teams in the league (EDM, WPG, SSK) posted profits of between $4.4M and $1.2M in the last fiscal year (or two). So, if 18K is the current breakeven point for CFL franchises, i'm curious how much a future TV deal would affect that point, and how much they're leaning on the TV deal to turn profits with current gate figures.The three teams that posted profits are also three of the strongest teams for overall attendance and capacity utilization in their stadiums. For teams like BC there have been rumours that the team is unprofitable/roughly breakeven drawing ~20K average/game.

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872900)
You posted attendances and capacity utilizations, then claimed that 18K was the breakeven point for CFL franchises. You haven't really provided any sourcing or information on this and i'm genuinely curious if this is a hard figure or one you've pulled out of thin air. I can't find any confirmation of that figure anywhere.

You better go back and read again or get some new glasses.

I never pull anything out of thin air unless I preface it by saying it's my opinion. I've been in the Internet wars too long to post anything I can't backup without third party corroboration.

I'll give you a clue, it's the original post you ignored because it was positive news.

JHikka Jul 22, 2017 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872906)
I never pull anything out of thin air unless I preface it by saying it's my opinion. I've been in the Internet wars too long to post anything I can't backup without third party corroboration.

I'll give you a clue, it's the original post you ignored because it was positive news.

I haven't actually been able to find Madani's statement on the 18K. Could you provide sourcing?

If that is the case, and your 18K is correct, i'm concerned that we're turning our eyes towards what we would consider to be the acceptable floor for financial solvency. BC and Montreal are teetering closer to it and Toronto's submerged underneath.

mistercorporate Jul 22, 2017 11:32 PM

Elly63,

I don't have a horse in this race, but i really think you're mischaracterizing JHikka here. He is very much a neutral. A fan of the NHL, the CFL and soccer in general (particularly the Ottawa Fury IIRC). JHikka is well known on this forum for providing attendance figures for various leagues. He's even butted heads with me when i was particularly harsh on some CFL fans. Anyway, there's lots of people like that (FrankieFlowerPot is another one), who debate with people on both sides (Frankie is both a TFC and Argos fan).

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7872911)
I haven't actually been able to find Madani's statement on the 18K. Could you provide sourcing?

Google is your friend.

Here's why him reporting it was so great and why CFL people latched on to it. Despite being a former CFL guy (worked with Renegades?) 98% of his reporting, being a loyal Rogers lackey was negative to the CFL, you kind of know what you have to do to maintain a good standing and keep your job.

Basically he was saying (not his words, mine) that with the TV contract even a relatively small crowd of 18,000 will keep you in business and not lose money. So a crowd of 18,000 isn't a catastrophe in financial terms.

Even the Argos said last year despite the brutal crowds, revenues were up. How and why I cannot say. Maybe a better stadium deal was a part of it because Rogers wasn't doing them any favours at the dome despite the still persistent rumours that they still had the sweetheart deal that they had many, many moons ago.

When I was in the biz, you knew where you stood re: reporting. Nobody had to tell you your boundaries. Rogers people knew what was expected of them and being favourable to the CFL was not part of that compact. Kind of like being a right winger at CBC, it just didn't happen, aside from Don Cherry (who was keeping them in business). And possibly because of the barrage of negative reporting Rogers did on the CFL, it's likely they generated a whole lotta bad will because lately the reporting seems much more balanced.

elly63 Jul 22, 2017 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 7872920)
Elly63,

I don't have a horse in this race, but i really think you're mischaracterizing JHikka here. He is very much a neutral. A fan of the NHL, the CFL and soccer in general (particularly the Ottawa Fury IIRC). JHikka is well known on this forum for providing attendance figures for various leagues. He's even butted heads with me when i was particularly harsh on some CFL fans. Anyway, there's lots of people like that (FrankieFlowerPot is another one), who debate with people on both sides (Frankie is both a TFC and Argos fan).

I've never had an issue with Frankie and I agree with you. However I still question jhikka's motives from his past posting history. I've been away for awhile so if he has changed his stance, I'll soon realize.

We can all get along, as I said, I've been a soccer guy longer than some here have been alive but I'm not going to let people take unnecessary shots (open or insidious) against a Canadian league to try and bring it down. And if the CPL gets off the ground I'll be that way for them as well.

Denscity Jul 23, 2017 1:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872739)
Do you know if they are they opening up the upper deck this year or is it still the lower deck? Everyone is saying it was a great game, I missed it, so I'm heading over to TSN Games on Demand to catch it.

TSN Games on Demand Lions vs Bombers

There's seems to be two lower bowl configurations. I know with the Whitecaps there is a 21k and then if demand is there they will have 27k like for the Portland match tomorrow.
Lions may just have the 27k config.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 1:59 AM

Argos attendance 15,801. Some interesting observations from people at the game. The throwback pricing seats apparently sold very well, the section was full. Some were saying they couldn't refuse the deal at those prices suggesting that the apathy, and irrelevance excuses may not actually be true. The Argos don't have to be relevant to six million people in the GTA, just 30,000.

It seems like the elephant in the room has been confronted and come out of the closet (mixed metaphor) and now the hard work to rebuild the franchise piece by piece has begun. The vibe I get is not a small crowd (which it is) and a dying team, the vibe I'm getting is the beginning of a new era.

I just heard a roar of the crowd after an Argo made an interception, that wasn't canned crowd noise, that was organic. Crowd is young and diverse, hopefully the first visible step to recovery.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 2:27 AM

Argos win on last play of game, people go home happy.

lrt's friend Jul 25, 2017 2:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7874679)
Argos win on last play of game, people go home happy.

Based on some of the calls, it seems that they want the Argos to win. It was like this in the first Argo RedBlacks game as well.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 2:59 AM

Remember when the CFL was the second highest rated sport behind hockey before the Blue Jays had their big run. Well it looks like the Jays are finally coming back down to earth.

WEDNESDAY July 19
Blue Jays at Red Sox SN 715k
Alouettes at Redblacks TSN 460k (not including RDS)
Whitecaps at LA TSN 90k
TFC at New York TSN 75k

THURSDAY July 20
Blue Jays at Red Sox SN 650k
Eskimos at Tiger-Cats TSN 520k

FRIDAY July 21
Blue Bombers at Lions TSN 650k
Blue Jays at Indians SN 570k

SATURDAY July 22
Roughriders at Stampeders TSN 690k
Blue Jays at Indians SN 520k
Colorado at TFC TSN 40k

SUNDAY July 23
Blue Jays at Indians SN 570k
Portland at Whitecaps TSN 65k

I am reposting these numbers, can't confirm the source yet.

mistercorporate Jul 25, 2017 3:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7874707)
Remember when the CFL was the second highest rated sport behind hockey before the Blue Jays had their big run. Well it looks like the Jays are finally coming back down to earth.

So you're comparing the viewership of one team vs a whole league? The Jays play a gazillion games a season. No CFL team comes close to their totals, you know that. I also thought you wanted to avoid the whole league vs league nonsense? People like myself who are soccer fans have refrained from posting one sided comments about the Argos even when they were going through their worst moments, whether through photos or attendance stats, the only person on this thread continuously beating a dead horse is you. Most of us have moved on from the league vs league crap, maybe it's time for you to move on too.

snowmobile Jul 25, 2017 4:11 AM

If those numbers are true, the jays have lost almost half their viewership in 4 months of ball. It took the CFL 5 years to drop from a mill per game to now around 550,000.

lrt's friend Jul 25, 2017 3:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowmobile (Post 7874767)
If those numbers are true, the jays have lost almost half their viewership in 4 months of ball. It took the CFL 5 years to drop from a mill per game to now around 550,000.

The Blue Jays bandwagon is huge. Once the team starts losing, a lot bail out pretty quickly. It turns again from Canada's team to Toronto's team.

TorontoDrew Jul 25, 2017 4:13 PM

LOL at comparing the entire CFL numbers to the Jay's numbers. And what about when Hockey starts up in 2 months, say goodbye to CFL numbers to our NHL teams. The Jays still out perform most MLB teams in numbers even when they are in a slump.

esquire Jul 25, 2017 4:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 7875183)
LOL at comparing the entire CFL numbers to the Jay's numbers.

:???:

I think you misunderstood something. If you go by elly's numbers, individual CFL games are roughly on par with Blue Jays games in terms of viewership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7874707)
WEDNESDAY July 19
Blue Jays at Red Sox SN 715k
Alouettes at Redblacks TSN 460k (not including RDS)
Whitecaps at LA TSN 90k
TFC at New York TSN 75k

THURSDAY July 20
Blue Jays at Red Sox SN 650k
Eskimos at Tiger-Cats TSN 520k

FRIDAY July 21
Blue Bombers at Lions TSN 650k
Blue Jays at Indians SN 570k

SATURDAY July 22
Roughriders at Stampeders TSN 690k
Blue Jays at Indians SN 520k
Colorado at TFC TSN 40k

SUNDAY July 23
Blue Jays at Indians SN 570k
Portland at Whitecaps TSN 65k

I am reposting these numbers, can't confirm the source yet.


mistercorporate Jul 25, 2017 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7875201)
:???:

I think you misunderstood something. If you go by elly's numbers, individual CFL games are roughly on par with Blue Jays games in terms of viewership.

Yet in relation to the statements that were made, individual CFL teams play way fewer games per year than the Jays, which is why the comparison wasn't like for like. Anyway, could we all put an end to this stuff, and that includes buddy over there with the unnecessary hockey trolling.

FrankieFlowerpot Jul 25, 2017 4:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7875201)
:???:

I think you misunderstood something. If you go by elly's numbers, individual CFL games are roughly on par with Blue Jays games in terms of viewership.

Well - there's also the fact that the Jays play 162 times vs 18 times for a CFL team

lrt's friend Jul 25, 2017 5:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 7875183)
LOL at comparing the entire CFL numbers to the Jay's numbers. And what about when Hockey starts up in 2 months, say goodbye to CFL numbers to our NHL teams. The Jays still out perform most MLB teams in numbers even when they are in a slump.

I don't think hockey greatly impacts CFL viewership, after all, it is early season games, which can be ho-hum.

Mind you Toronto is a different city and they are yet again planning the parade down Yonge Street now that the 'second coming' has arrived on the Leafs.

lrt's friend Jul 25, 2017 5:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot (Post 7875229)
Well - there's also the fact that the Jays play 162 times vs 18 times for a CFL team

162 reasons to change to another channel.

snowmobile Jul 25, 2017 5:33 PM

I don't understand why its wrong to compare CFL numbers against Jays. They play the same number of games in a weekend so baseball fans and football fans have equal opportunity to watch an event. Looks like Jays are no longer must see TV. July 7th week on numeris had blue jays game average just over 600k so I believe these latest numbers.

WhipperSnapper Jul 25, 2017 5:38 PM

Umm... the Jays are on every single day. You can afford to miss a game on a precious weekend.

cjones2451 Jul 25, 2017 5:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 7875183)
LOL at comparing the entire CFL numbers to the Jay's numbers. And what about when Hockey starts up in 2 months, say goodbye to CFL numbers to our NHL teams. The Jays still out perform most MLB teams in numbers even when they are in a slump.

If you look at history, CFL viewership does not go down when the NHL starts up, most people are done with summer and watch more TV.

TorontoDrew Jul 25, 2017 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot (Post 7875229)
Well - there's also the fact that the Jays play 162 times vs 18 times for a CFL team


Agreed,162 games vs only 18, one can't expect the numbers to be high each game if a team is not performing.

As for "lrt's friend" comment 162 reasons to change a channel. MLB is not for everybody but it has far more fans then the CFL does in Toronto.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 8:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate (Post 7874750)
So you're comparing the viewership of one team vs a whole league? The Jays play a gazillion games a season. No CFL team comes close to their totals, you know that. I also thought you wanted to avoid the whole league vs league nonsense? People like myself who are soccer fans have refrained from posting one sided comments about the Argos even when they were going through their worst moments, whether through photos or attendance stats, the only person on this thread continuously beating a dead horse is you. Most of us have moved on from the league vs league crap, maybe it's time for you to move on too.

Give me a break, I'm just giving numbers and since when have the goalposts moved to include totals. Even if I intended to (and didn't) all these show are what people watched on a given night.

What I find interesting is how the GTA controls the numbers, the Jays fall and the numbers plummet.

Toronto makes the playoffs and basketball ratings skyrocket from what was far less than CFL numbers in the regular season.

I thought that was what this thread was about, numbers.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowmobile (Post 7874767)
If those numbers are true, the jays have lost almost half their viewership in 4 months of ball. It took the CFL 5 years to drop from a mill per game to now around 550,000.

I don't think they were ever that high for a regular season average. Maybe 800k, I can't recall now, without looking it up. Last year's average was 630k, numbers were down a bit so far but the product has been so good this year they are rebounding (past three weeks are up) in spite of the cord cutting trends.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjones2451 (Post 7875314)
If you look at history, CFL viewership does not go down when the NHL starts up, most people are done with summer and watch more TV.

CFL ratings generally go up as the season progresses especially after Labour Day when the bullets really start to fly.

elly63 Jul 25, 2017 8:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 7875159)
The Blue Jays bandwagon is huge. Once the team starts losing, a lot bail out pretty quickly. It turns again from Canada's team to Toronto's team.

While I'd say a fair number of the ROC have tuned out, that 6 million GTA market is what really drives the wagon.

JHikka Jul 25, 2017 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7872922)
Google is your friend.

Tried that. Found zip. I can't be bothered to go through eight years of Twitter feed to find one tweet that may or may not exist.

----------------

July 19-24, 2017
TORONTO/OAKLAND.............JULY 24...MLB...SKYDOME...TORONTO........39,613...80.38%
CALGARY/SASKATCHEWAN...JULY 22...CFL...MCMAHON...CALGARY.......30,274...85.52%
TORONTO/COLORADO..........JULY 22...MLS...BMO FIELD...TORONTO.......28,060...93.53%
VANCOUVER/PORTLAND........JULY 23...MLS...BC PLACE...VANCOUVER...25,082...100.00%
OTTAWA/MONTREAL.............JULY 19...CFL....TD PLACE...OTTAWA.........24,756...100.00%

HAMILTON/EDMONTON..........JULY 20...CFL...TIM HORTONS FIELD...HAMILTON...23,531....98.05%
BC/WINNIPEG.......................JULY 21...CFL...BC PLACE...VANCOUVER..............21,017...76.43%
MONTREAL/DALLAS...............JULY 22...MLS...STADE SAPUTO...MONTREAL.......20,481...98.46%
MONTREAL/PHILADELPHIA......JULY 19...MLS...STADE SAPUTO....MONTREAL.......16,660...80.09%
TORONTO/OTTAWA................JULY 24...CFL....BMO FIELD....TORONTO............15,801...52.67%

VALENCIA/NEW YORK.............JULY 22...FRND.....MOSAIC STADIUM...REGINA.....15,000~
QUEBEC/SUSSEX C.................JULY 21...CANAM..STADE CANAC......QUEBEC........3,721
QUEBEC/ROCKLAND................JULY 20...CANAM..STADE CANAC......QUEBEC........3,570
QUEBEC/ROCKLAND...............JULY 19....CANAM..STADE CANAC......QUEBEC........3,219

Because CFL listed Monday night's Argos game as Week 5 i've included it in this weekend's numbers. By including Monday i've also captured Monday's Jays game. Normally what I plan on doing for this is a 3-game average for a Jays homestand rather than each individual home game.
  • Stampeders hitting 30K makes them the fourth CFL team to hit the mark this season (after Edmonton, Saskatchewan, and Winnipeg).
  • TFC gets their second highest gate of the season.
  • Whitecaps get their third sellout in a row.
  • REDBLACKS and Ti-Cats continue their consistent gate.
  • Valencia & New York Cosmos draw "over 15K" to Mosaic for their Friendly. Not bad for two non-Canadian clubs.

JHikka Jul 25, 2017 10:09 PM

Edited, referenced to CFL ratings and not Jays.

JHikka Jul 25, 2017 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian (Post 7875326)
30 000 for a game in Calgary is pretty good, can't really expect much more than that...

Found this over in the CFL thread and decided to drag it here. The Stamps used to routinely get 30K+ to games.

Number of home games with 30K+ attendance, per year, Calgary (with season avg.):

2008: 9 (32,523)
2009: 9 (36,502)
2010: 5 (30,715)
2011: 3 (30,539)
2012: 2 (28,665)
2013: 3 (29,263)
2014: 3 (29,559)
2015: 4 (30,154)
2016: 1 (27,474)

McMahon's usual max capacity is 35,400 (was previously 35,650). Stadium was expanded in 2009 temporarily prior to hosting the Grey Cup.

snowmobile Jul 25, 2017 10:35 PM

Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. He was referring to the cfl numbers not averaging 1 mill

JHikka Jul 25, 2017 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowmobile (Post 7875621)
Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. He was referring to the cfl numbers not averaging 1 mill

Ah, that's my bad. I assumed he was quoting Jays.

Anyway, for those wondering, Jays attendance average was actually up y/y through this May over last season. Average was down roughly 2K for June compared to last season.

elly63 Jul 26, 2017 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7875580)
Tried that. Found zip. I can't be bothered to go through eight years of Twitter feed to find one tweet that may or may not exist.

It exists all right, if you don't want to believe it that's your problem.

JHikka Jul 26, 2017 1:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 7875729)
It exists all right, if you don't want to believe it that's your problem.

Why would I believe something I haven't seen or heard for myself?

So, in my googling, i've stumbled upon a Yahoo Sports article by Andrew Bucholtz which tries to dissect presumed required attendance for breaking even in the CFL. I'm guessing this is more valuable than a potential soundbyte from Madani, anyway.

Below are the relevant bits:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Bucholtz
Let's take a look at what the Argonauts' finances might be. The team is privately owned (split between Bell and Larry Tanenbaum's Kilmer Group), so their financial reports aren't public, but as we've done in previous years, we can get an estimate of what they're making and spending based on CFL finances that are publicly reported. There are two important numbers that we do know; the salary cap ($5.1 million this year) and the league dispersements to clubs (mostly revenue from the TV/radio/internet rights deal with TSN, but some other things are included in this; this was $4,204,850 per club in 2015, as shown by the Eskimos' financials.) Thus, each team will likely get around $4.2 million (maybe more; it was $4,344,817 in 2014) from the league, and they can pay a maximum of $5.1 million in salaries to players (with some caveats: for example, players on the six-game injured list don't count against the cap). So, even if the Argos spend right up to the cap, the biggest loss they could have from player salaries versus TV revenue would be only $900,000.

What are the Argos' other costs and revenues? Again, the Edmonton example may prove instructive, especially considering that Edmonton has generally been the lowest of the three teams that do report their finances. The Eskimos reported operating expenses of $22.8 million in 2015 (and operating revenues of $24.8 million, giving them a $1.6 million profit). For comparison, the Bombers reported operating revenue of $28.3 million and operating expenses of $23.9 million (a $4.4 million profit), and the Roughriders reported operating revenue of $39.3 million and operating expenses of $42.7 million (a loss of $3.4 million, which expanded to a loss of $4.3 million after adding in donations, rent and investment value changes) It seems likely the Argonauts' expenses aren't much beyond Edmonton's, especially considering that the Eskimos have heavily invested in football operations in recent years.

What about their revenues? Well, we don't have enough information to really understand where they stack up in a few areas, but they may not be that different from teams we do know. Toronto's probably below Edmonton in merchandise sales (the Eskimos had $1,683,445 last year, a substantial rise over 2014), but they're not necessarily as far behind in sponsorships ($4,502,647) or concessions and game-day revenues ($3,993,919; yes, the Argos have had less people at their games than Edmonton, but they also may make some money from pre-game tailgating sales). That's all hypothetical, though. One area where the Eskimos certainly were ahead is in postseason revenue; they hosted the West Final and made $1.7 million off that, while Toronto didn't host a postseason game. Another area we can examine in more detail, and the only one that's directly related to attendance, is gate revenue.

The Eskimos brought in $8,620,735 in pre-season and regular-season gate revenue last year (for comparison, Winnipeg brought in $9.8 million and Saskatchewan brought in $15.7 million), and had a regular season home average attendance of 31,517, which would multiply to a total attendance of around 283,653 across nine home games, plus 11,825 from their preseason "home game" in Fort McMurray for a total attendance of 295,378. That means Edmonton brought in average revenue of $29.19 per ticket sold, which seems reasonable: some seats are cheaper than that, some are more expensive, and season ticket savings affect this. The Argos' season-ticket pricing looks a bit more expensive than the Eskimos', and their single-game tickets also seem a little more expensive, so we can probably assume that they're making at least as much per seat sold as Edmonton and perhaps more. That gives us an opportunity to estimate gate revenues for the Argos under a few conditions, as seen in the following sheet:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/mn...enues-2016.jpg

There are a few key takeaways from that. Even under the most favourable assumptions here (an average attendance that rises to 18,000 and revenue of $35 per seat), the Argonauts' $6.2 million in gate revenue would still be $2.4 million behind Edmonton, and they'd be $3.6 million behind Winnipeg and $9.5 million behind Saskatchewan. So, poor attendance certainly does hurt them. However, even under the least favourable assumptions here (an average attendance that plummets to 14,660, the current average discounting the home opener, and revenue of $29.19 per seat), Toronto still pulls in $4.3 million from the gate, and while that would put them $4.3 million behind the Eskimos, that isn't necessarily disastrous.

Remember, Edmonton made a profit of $1.6 million in 2015 and had $8.6 million in gate revenues; they also made $1.7 million from hosting the West Final, but spent $2.6 million on hosting and playing in the West Final and playing in the Grey Cup. Thus, if all other factors are held even, a CFL team that doesn't compete in the postseason would only need would need about $6.1 million at the regular-season gate to break even. Under the least favourable conditions here (presuming other areas of revenue and expenses are similar), the Argonauts would lose $1.8 million on the season. Under the most favourable conditions here, they'd make $100,000. Of course, this comes with caveats; we're presuming that the attendance figures are accurate, that the numbers of free tickets given out aren't significant enough to really tank the per-seat revenue, and that Toronto's other revenues and costs are in line with Edmonton's. Still, there's a way this team could even be profitable if they manage to boost their average attendance to just 18,000 and their revenue per seat to $35.

That's also before you consider that the Argos are hosting the 2016 Grey Cup, which is a big money-maker. Hosting the Grey Cup gave the Riders $9.3 million in profit in 2013 and the Bombers $7.1 million in profit last year. Thus, the Argos' losses this year should be more than covered by Grey Cup profits. Those profits should also provide enough money to hopefully cover losses for several years. Now, those profits certainly won't cover the team's losses indefinitely, and the league can't just keep handing Grey Cups to Toronto (which will have had two in five years now) to prop up the franchise, so the team does need to improve its attendance in order to become stable.

The Argos have deep-pocketed owners who appear to be in this for the long haul, though, and the attendance really isn't calamitous. It's well below other cities, sure, but it's a big gain over last year's 12,430 (affected by moving home games thanks to the Blue Jays playoff run), it's not far below their 17,791 in 2014, and it's not necessarily far from what the team would need to become at least revenue-neutral. There's reason to believe they may be able to get there some day, especially if they start winning at home. Someone who might help there is...

He had an additional section on Montreal & BC:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Bucholtz
3. Attendance in Montreal and B.C.? The CFL's other biggest cities have also come under fire for poor attendance, placing second- and third-worst respectively with average attendances of 20,191 and 20,715 respectively so far this year. However, estimating their gate revenue according to the process above (taking the average attendance, multiplying by nine home games, adding the preseason attendance, and multiplying by the average of $29.19 Edmonton made per ticket) gives $5.7 million for Montreal and $6.0 million for B.C. That's below the estimated $6.1 million gate needed to be revenue-neutral (excluding playoff revenue and costs), but it's also not disastrous, and it's much better than the situation in Toronto. The actual situation might be better for them too, as their per-ticket profits could be above $29.19. Those attendances could still be improved, of course, but it's worth pointing out that this is becoming less and less of a gate-driven league thanks to the new TV deal.

Yes, gate revenues are still the biggest source of revenue (and even bad ones are above the estimated $4.2 million the league's handing out to each club annually), but the amount of TV money coming in makes it possible to be close to revenue-neutral even with lower gates. For reference, an average attendance of 20,997 per regular-season game plus 20,000 at a preseason game, at an average of $29.19 per ticket, would produce the $6.1 million needed to hit revenue-neutral under these assumptions. An attendance of less than 21,000 seems like an achievable target. Something to consider here, though, is that this only works because the 2014 CBA gives players only an estimated 18.5 to 22.7 per cent of league revenues, a staggeringly low percentage by professional sports standards. If the reorganized CFLPA puts up more of a fight in the next bargaining war and gains a higher percentage of revenues, the attendance needed for profitability would rise. Speaking of the CFLPA, they made some waves this week with a submission to an Alberta government panel investigating...

Bucholtz' conclusion seems to be somewhere in the ballpark of between 20K-21K necessary to break even under current revenue dispersion with the TSN TV contract. The Argos are theoretically breakeven at 18K if their per-seat revenue is somewhere around $35 (including something like Monday night's seat sales is tough to say, which didn't get them to 16K).

elly63 Jul 26, 2017 1:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 7875765)
Why would I believe something I haven't seen or heard for myself?

Because it goes against the grain of your narrative?


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