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elly63 Jul 18, 2022 8:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679211)
Most other teams in Toronto have been able to survive and either grow. In fact, i'd argue that all teams are either as popular or more popular now than they've ever been - except for the Argos.

And yet the Argos are the only Toronto team playing in an all Canadian league (save CPL) where York is doing even worse. I always read how Toronto has "outgrown" the CFL. I see it as Toronto being like a teenager who is embarrassed to be seen with his parents, now really who is the ahole there, the kid or the parents?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679211)
You can call my posts 'trolling' if you'd like but it seems like this sort of discussion permeates throughout the CFL community regardless of whether or not I visit. At least now more CFL fans are willing to accept that widespread changes need to be brought in to right the course of the league.

Why is it that this sounds like a condescending white Liberal telling black people how they should live. Like them, I think CFL fans aren't so naive and/or stupid to not know what is going on around them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679211)
This forum is not an accurate representation of real life, or the influence of sports teams in real life.

Time for a new answer, that spin is getting old. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679211)
I see.

I wish you did but I have my doubts, old habits die hard, you were doin' ok for a while. :)

JHikka Jul 18, 2022 8:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679246)
And yet the Argos are the only Toronto team playing in an all Canadian league (save CPL) where York is doing even worse. I always read how Toronto has "outgrown" the CFL. I see it as Toronto being like a teenager who is embarrassed to be seen with his parents, now really who is the ahole there, the kid or the parents?

People are under no obligation to go to CFL games out of some kind of either national pride or nostalgia. The product needs to be appealing in order to be successful. This becomes more true the larger a city becomes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679246)
Why is it that this sounds like a condescending white Liberal telling black people how they should live. Like them, I think CFL fans aren't so naive and/or stupid to not know what is going on around them.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679246)
Time for a new answer, that spin is getting old. :)

When in doubt just accuse them of spin!

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679246)
I wish you did but I have my doubts, old habits die hard, you were doin' ok for a while. :)

And i'm the one that's condescending.

Acajack Jul 18, 2022 8:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679246)
And yet the Argos are the only Toronto team playing in an all Canadian league (save CPL) where York is doing even worse. I always read how Toronto has "outgrown" the CFL. I see it as Toronto being like a teenager who is embarrassed to be seen with his parents, now really who is the ahole there, the kid or the parents?

I was just going to say something like this.

The only teams that are "growing" in Toronto are teams that are playing in leagues dominated by US clubs.

Everything that is uniquely Canadian: CFL, CHL, CPL, U Sport, Vanier Cup, Memorial Cup, Brier, etc. struggles terribly in Toronto.

Even in sports where there is really no equivalent US competition seen as "better", like the Brier or the Memorial Cup, Toronto doesn't show up.

It is what it is.

Acajack Jul 18, 2022 8:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679221)
I'd wager that a city of millions effectively on the border with the US with many connections to US cities would inherently be connected with the US in the same way that most of Canada's popultion is tied to the US. Anglophone New Brunswick is more American than Toronto, and i'd say these days that rural Alberta/Prairies is more American than Toronto.
.

People always say this (you hear it about Quebec sometimes even - quite ridiculously) but it's basically just ascribing political leanings one doesn't like to the entire US, and then establishing a linkage with the part of Canada one feels most closely espouses them.

By this measure even parts of rural New South Wales or Southern France would be "more American" than Toronto.

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9679229)
The toronto rock option makes the most sense for the Argos move to Hamilton or London and get better stadium dates and a market base that is more cfl friendly and easier for the team to grab a larger chunk of the market rather than the crowded toronto market that appears permanently lost

Stadium dates aren't an issue for the Argos, they had their dates before TFC this year IIRC.

Here's an interesting question that just came to me and I've never seen discussed. Could MLSE own the Argos and operate them from another location, ie Halifax, Kitchener etc. Pros and cons?

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9679257)
I was just going to say something like this.

The only teams that are "growing" in Toronto are teams that are playing in leagues dominated by US clubs.

Everything that is uniquely Canadian: CFL, CHL, CPL, U Sport, Vanier Cup, Memorial Cup, Brier, etc. struggles terribly in Toronto.

Even in sports where there is really no equivalent US competition seen as "better", like the Brier or the Memorial Cup, Toronto doesn't show up.

It is what it is.

Where's Aunt Esther when you need her. Haah Glory, Hallelujah!

JHikka Jul 18, 2022 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9679257)
Everything that is uniquely Canadian: CFL, CHL, CPL, U Sport, Vanier Cup, Memorial Cup, Brier, etc. struggles terribly in Toronto.

Quebec hasn't hosted a Brier in 34 years. Must be because they're too American! :P

thurmas Jul 18, 2022 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679261)
Stadium dates aren't an issue for the Argos, they had their dates before TFC this year IIRC.

Here's an interesting question that just came to me and I've never seen discussed. Could MLSE own the Argos and operate them from another location, ie Halifax, Kitchener etc. Pros and cons?

They could but would likely be a terrible owner based on how cheaply they run the Argos cheaper than a minor league baseball team. Personally I rather see the Argos move to tim hortons field keep the Toronto name and have it similar to the NY jets NY giants at metlife in New Jersey and have someone like Bob Young and now Jim Lawson and the stelco group run the team

thurmas Jul 18, 2022 9:05 PM

Cfl hall of fame is in Hamilton there's train connections between the hammer and Toronto and the CFL can keep a Toronto presence while in a cfl friendly market more to themselves and not having to fold a team.

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9679286)
They could but would likely be a terrible owner based on how cheaply they run the Argos cheaper than a minor league baseball team. Personally I rather see the Argos move to tim hortons field keep the Toronto name and have it similar to the NY jets NY giants at metlife in New Jersey and have someone like Bob Young and now Jim Lawson and the stelco group run the team

I don't like the idea of being nearer Hamilton diluting the market, and about the only Pro I can see for MLSE ownership would be the bills would be paid, but that's also a pretty important consideration. Then we get into the whole idea of leaving the Toronto market and all the national advertising/marketing considerations as well.

Acajack Jul 18, 2022 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679270)
Quebec hasn't hosted a Brier in 34 years. Must be because they're too American! :P

It's obvious you would go there.

Unlike Toronto and Ontario, Quebec doesn't lay claim to Captain Canada status. It's almost a point of pride to be indifferent to such things.

Toronto OTOH actively claims this Canadian leader role.

JHikka Jul 18, 2022 9:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9679301)
It's obvious you would go there.

It wasn't obvious that I was joking?

Acajack Jul 18, 2022 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679304)
It wasn't obvious that I was joking?

Yes.

Most posts on here I don't take (very) seriously.

thurmas Jul 18, 2022 9:15 PM

Hamilton has a cfl newish stadium that can provide corporate suite revenues and concessions. Also Hamilton is just 45 mins from Toronto and West jet uses Hamilton as their eastern hub. This way no new stadium needs to be built also.

JHikka Jul 18, 2022 9:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9679316)
Hamilton has a cfl newish stadium that can provide corporate suite revenues and concessions. Also Hamilton is just 45 mins from Toronto and West jet uses Hamilton as their eastern hub. This way no new stadium needs to be built also.

Why would Hamilton Sports Group agree to play host to an MLSE team, particularly at the risk of their own properties in the Tiger Cats and Forge?

Places like London, Kitchener, or Barrie are more appealing options in the event that the Argos are jettisoned from Toronto.

thurmas Jul 18, 2022 9:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679324)
Why would Hamilton Sports Group agree to play host to an MLSE team, particularly at the risk of their own properties in the Tiger Cats and Forge?

Places like London, Kitchener, or Barrie are more appealing options in the event that the Argos are jettisoned from Toronto.

I don't think MLSE will keep the Argos long term as i think Tannenbaum really wants to get in on the xfl. I forsee in the next year or two they will likely give the keys to the club back to the CFL to find a new owner. Those other cities you list are decent markets but lack of a stadium is a big issue that needs to be resolved

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9679324)
Why would Hamilton Sports Group agree to play host to an MLSE team, particularly at the risk of their own properties in the Tiger Cats and Forge?

Places like London, Kitchener, or Barrie are more appealing options in the event that the Argos are jettisoned from Toronto.

Yup

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 9:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9679332)
I don't think MLSE will keep the Argos long term as i think Tannenbaum really wants to get in on the xfl.

That would be the ultimate in American wannabeeism, getting involved in a third rate league. Christmas Tree may have liked the idea but I can't see the board going for that one. How many US football leagues since the AFL have survived and prospered. What's that Marigold? None?

thurmas Jul 18, 2022 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9679338)
That would be the ultimate in American wannabeeism, getting involved in a third rate league. Christmas Tree may have liked the idea but I can't see the board going for that one. How many US football leagues since the AFL have survived and prospered. What's that Marigold? None!

I agree but based off his opinions recently and the lack of resources he's put in the Argos xfl sounds like the most mlse type of league they would want to join. What indicators has he given that he wants to grow the Argos same for bill Manning all I have seen is them giving up on the Argos

elly63 Jul 18, 2022 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurmas (Post 9679341)
I agree but based off his opinions recently and the lack of resources he's put in the Argos xfl sounds like the most mlse type of league they would want to join. What indicators has he given that he wants to grow the Argos same for bill Manning all I have seen is them giving up on the Argos

And they should be publicly called out for that.


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