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kwoldtimer Jan 22, 2020 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8807604)
It's starting to feel like this is all just delaying the inevitable.

Yes, one wonders ..... Along with what the full implications would be.

jmt18325 Jan 22, 2020 3:39 PM

I don't see why it won't be able to fly again. I think the FAA is simply scared to give it the go ahead.

hollywoodcory Jan 22, 2020 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 8807022)
http://westjet.mediaroom.com/2020-01...Boeing-737-MAX

WS has said they've be removing the Max from its schedule until June 24.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020...MAX-Operations

AC says their removing the Max until June 30. Neither has actually updated their respective schedules yet.

craneSpotter Jan 22, 2020 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer (Post 8807607)
Yes, one wonders ..... Along with what the full implications would be.

Boeing is in some serious trouble. It just booked its worst year in the past 30 - finishing up 2019 with NEGATIVE orders due to 737 Max cancellations (smart airlines) - even after Boeing slashed the price of the troubled aircraft.

Not only that - Boeing secured a $9.5 billion USD credit line in Oct 2019, and is adding another $10 billion USD to it's credit lines this month - to keep the company running. There is no telling how many billions of USDs have been (and will be) paid out to airlines in compensation for lost revenue. It is spiralling into vast debt.

Pilots are also now starting to lose faith in the plane, they keep finding software glitches. The 737 Max future is sketchy - and the travelling public that are aware, are not necessarily going to trust flying on a 737MAX, when it comes back into service sometime over the next 18 months.

Boeing needs a culture change if it is to survive. It may not even have the funds (cash flow) to start up the 737Max line without a GOV bailout - in its last reported Quarter (Q3 '19) it had -2.4 billion USD $ cash flow...that is sure to be higher for Q4.

Meanwhile Airbus is setting records...

canucklehead2 Jan 22, 2020 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 8807952)
Boeing is in some serious trouble. It just booked its worst year in the past 30 - finishing up 2019 with NEGATIVE orders due to 737 Max cancellations (smart airlines).

Not only that - Boeing secured a $9.5 billion USD credit line in Oct 2019, and is adding another $10 billion USD in credit lines this month - to keep the company running. There is no telling how many billions of USDs have been paid out to airlines in compensation for lost revenue. It is spiralling into vast debt.

Pilots are also now starting to lose faith in the plane, they keep finding software glitches. The 737 Max future is sketchy - and the travelling public that are aware, are not necessarily going to trust flying on a 737MAX, when it comes back into service sometime over the next 18 months.

Boeing needs a culture change if it is to survive. It may not even have the funds to start up the 737Max line without a GOV bailout.

Meanwhile Airbus is setting records...

Bingo. While Boeing may have history on its side I don't think it will be able to recover its reputation since its damage is entirely self inflicted. I personally would be hesitant to fly on a Boeing 737-800 MAX period even with fixes and not just for the safety factors.

Dominion301 Jan 22, 2020 9:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8806246)
AC update this week (not including already announced):

A223 routes for S20
1x daily YWG-YYZ
1x daily YVR-YUL
2x daily YEG-YUL
1x daily YYZ-YUL
1x daily YWG-YUL
1x daily YYZ-YHZ
1x daily YUL-YHZ
3x daily YUL-LGA
1x weekly YUL-NAS (new for summer?)
YUL-DEN reduced to 13x weekly

Conversion to Rouge
6x daily YYZ-YYT
4x daily YYZ-YHZ

YYZ-BDA
YUL-FDF, PTP

Major service reduction
YYZ-YXX,CLE
YUL-LAX
YVR-YZF

Major service increase
YYZ-YCD
YUL-CCC,CUN
YYC-YOW,YCD,YKA
YYT-YDF
YVR-YXC,YQR,YXE

Route removed
YYZ-AZS,POP
YOW-MCO


YLW is getting widebody with daily Rouge 763 to YYZ
YHZ-YOW now mainline and YYT-YOW now express
Widebody YYZ/YUL-LAX/SFO now all swap from 789 to either 77L or 763
YXY-YVR remains mainline as in W19

There seems to be reduction in frequency for most domestic trans-con routes. Not sure if the schedule had taken account to the MAX grounding

The list ignores all the Jazz/Sky Regional/mainline/Rouge swap in central eastern Canada on routes > 4x daily due to complexity and leftover entries in the schedule...

For the sun routes that are cut, hopefully those are temporary due to the MAX shortages. Obviously all of those will return on a seasonal basis for the winter peak season.

Looks like YYT will be temporarily mainline-free this summer with YYZ going all Rouge and YOW staying Express (typically an E90 route...likely a future A220 route).

YOW-YHZ sees the evening flight upgaguged to a 320. Save for 1 month last May during the MAX juggling, this is the first time in 4 or 5 years that AC has put mainline onto this route...even longer for something as big as a 320.

As for YXX-YYZ, the fact that AC will be at YXX at all this summer is a 'gain'. Looks like they'll be there 5x weekly ops X17.

In addition to YLW getting regularly scheduled widebody service for the first time ever, the 763 also returns to YYJ-YYZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8806267)
Also, doesn't seems like AC's mainline 763 are going anywhere yet.

1x daily NRT-YYC-YYZ
2x daily YVR-YYZ
1x daily YYC-YYZ
1x daily YEG-YYZ
1x daily SFO-YYZ
1x daily LAX-YYZ

How many planes does that need? 5..?

Yep that would need 5.

FlyYOW Jan 22, 2020 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8806246)
AC update this week (not including already announced):

Route removed
YOW-MCO

May I ask where you got this? On the PDF timetable eff. Jan 30 YOWMCO shows as operating AC1262 on 319 (mainline) days 67. This is as in previous years.

Perhaps it's because

Quote:

The list ignores all the Jazz/Sky Regional/mainline/Rouge swap in central eastern Canada on routes > 4x daily due to complexity and leftover entries in the schedule...
?

nname Jan 22, 2020 9:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8808238)
Looks like YYT will be temporarily mainline-free this summer with YYZ going all Rouge and YOW staying Express (typically an E90 route...likely a future A220 route).

There's a daily MAX to YYZ and LHR... but seems like it's rather unlikely to run this summer...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8808238)
As for YXX-YYZ, the fact that AC will be at YXX at all this summer is a 'gain'. Looks like they'll be there 5x weekly ops X17.

Now down to 3x weekly, 145.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8808243)
May I ask where you got this? On the PDF timetable eff. Jan 30 YOWMCO shows as operating AC1262 on 319 (mainline) days 67. This is as in previous years.

There is no more direct service between YOW and MCO in the summer according to AC online schedule as of Tuesday morning update:

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...schedules.html

PS. YOW-MCO never operated 4x daily, so I manually checked it before posted it here.

[EDIT] Just checked again... AC1838 are still there, but 1262 are completely removed, starting from May 2nd. So the PDF is likely generated before this week's schedule update.


Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8807082)
Is the flight schedules section of the AC site always the most up to date? I know it differs from their actual booking engine sometimes (either things loaded into schedules first and booking later, or maybe vice versa?). For instance, the AC schedules still show two daily YVR-LHR flights, but news releases months back said it is only one daily but up gauged to 777W, and booking is only available for the 777W flight, but the schedules definitely shows a 777W and a 788 non-stop still. Any idea?

Flight schedule are updated weekly between 12am and 4am Tuesday Eastern time, so they are usually more up to date. Usually they add flight in schedule first and then open for reservation later... but sometimes they can add a flight and open reservation in between the weekly schedule update, but everything should be synced up on the following week.

But still, they can have a flight in the schedule and not open for reservation. For instance they kept both mainline and Rouge ALG flight the past summer but only operated one of them. However, I've never seen them operating a flight that's not in the schedule, otherwise the flight status system wouldn't work.

zahav Jan 22, 2020 10:16 PM

Oh OK I see! I wonder why they are keeping the 2nd LHR flight in there still?

wave46 Jan 23, 2020 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 8807952)
Boeing is in some serious trouble. It just booked its worst year in the past 30 - finishing up 2019 with NEGATIVE orders due to 737 Max cancellations (smart airlines) - even after Boeing slashed the price of the troubled aircraft.

Not only that - Boeing secured a $9.5 billion USD credit line in Oct 2019, and is adding another $10 billion USD to it's credit lines this month - to keep the company running. There is no telling how many billions of USDs have been (and will be) paid out to airlines in compensation for lost revenue. It is spiralling into vast debt.

Pilots are also now starting to lose faith in the plane, they keep finding software glitches. The 737 Max future is sketchy - and the travelling public that are aware, are not necessarily going to trust flying on a 737MAX, when it comes back into service sometime over the next 18 months.

Boeing needs a culture change if it is to survive. It may not even have the funds (cash flow) to start up the 737Max line without a GOV bailout - in its last reported Quarter (Q3 '19) it had -2.4 billion USD $ cash flow...that is sure to be higher for Q4.

Meanwhile Airbus is setting records...

The larger issue (to me) is the revelations of the culture rot in the company.

Each time an electronic conversation is revealed to the media, it does not paint a good picture of the culture inside Boeing. These just aren't a few malcontents either, they're higher-level people who should know better than this.

It's one thing to grumble and complain inside a workplace (it happens everywhere), but to do it via electronic documentation brazenly is something else.

The finance men have been running Boeing for a bit now and the cracks are starting to show. The outsourcing of subassembly responsibility on the 787 was a disaster (It'll be cheaper if our subcontractors do all the work!) and the 737 MAX debacle (Let's slap poorly conceived band-aid solutions to kludge something together that will be cheap) are signs of a penny-wise and pound-foolish approach. These are the same idiot moves that ran General Motors into bankruptcy.

I'm not sure when the rot started (there are various theories), but overcoming that will be the big challenge. The other concerning sign is that the new CEO is a former GE Finance guy who was on the board of directors when these things were approved. If he stays on, I don't see how Boeing's culture changes.

FlyYOW Jan 23, 2020 3:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8808262)
There is no more direct service between YOW and MCO in the summer according to AC online schedule as of Tuesday morning update:

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...schedules.html

PS. YOW-MCO never operated 4x daily, so I manually checked it before posted it here.

[EDIT] Just checked again... AC1838 are still there, but 1262 are completely removed, starting from May 2nd. So the PDF is likely generated before this week's schedule update.

Didn't realize there was a disconnect between PDF and online schedule. Also completely misread the 4x comment. So back to seasonal for this one; would have been shocked to see it go altogether.

Dominion301 Jan 23, 2020 4:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8808676)
Didn't realize there was a disconnect between PDF and online schedule. Also completely misread the 4x comment. So back to seasonal for this one; would have been shocked to see it go altogether.

YOW-MCO I think might be dropping to 4x weekly in April as the winter season winds down...could be wrong about this though.

Dominion301 Jan 23, 2020 4:11 AM

Hi everyone. The Time Air Society of Lethbridge are trying to save one of the F-28s at YXE that have been parked there for over 15 years.

They are about $3,250 shy of their goal, but only have until the end of January to succeed (otherwise it will join all the other YXE F-28s and head off to the scrapper. If you can donate even as little as $20, it would go a long way to preserving a piece of Canadian (and Dutch) aviation history.

Here’s the link to their GoFundMe page: https://www.gofundme.com/f/saving-cf...281000-sn11106

Even if you can’t afford to donate, spread the word.

SteelTown Jan 23, 2020 6:13 PM

Uh, so close to the 1 million mark for Hamilton Airport, well I'm sure 2020 YHM will get 1 million with the new Swoop routes....

2019 numbers are in & @flyyhm
is celebrating 3 years of unprecedented growth! Last year, 955,373 passengers used the Airport! A 32% growth vs 2018, 60% vs 2017 & a remarkable 187% vs 2016. Cargo is also up 21% over the last 3 year years!
https://twitter.com/flyyhm/status/1220404692557139974

craneSpotter Jan 23, 2020 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8808628)
The larger issue (to me) is the revelations of the culture rot in the company.

Each time an electronic conversation is revealed to the media, it does not paint a good picture of the culture inside Boeing. These just aren't a few malcontents either, they're higher-level people who should know better than this.

It's one thing to grumble and complain inside a workplace (it happens everywhere), but to do it via electronic documentation brazenly is something else.

The finance men have been running Boeing for a bit now and the cracks are starting to show. The outsourcing of subassembly responsibility on the 787 was a disaster (It'll be cheaper if our subcontractors do all the work!) and the 737 MAX debacle (Let's slap poorly conceived band-aid solutions to kludge something together that will be cheap) are signs of a penny-wise and pound-foolish approach. These are the same idiot moves that ran General Motors into bankruptcy.

I'm not sure when the rot started (there are various theories), but overcoming that will be the big challenge. The other concerning sign is that the new CEO is a former GE Finance guy who was on the board of directors when these things were approved. If he stays on, I don't see how Boeing's culture changes.


Absolutely agree. There are also ongoing QC issues with 787s assembled in South Carolina.

It's troubling to see Boeing's senior managers seemly ignore the warnings from employees about manufacturing problems and safety concerns - but keep the pressure up to produce higher numbers...

zahav Jan 23, 2020 9:08 PM

Looks like YYZ-YKA also dropped this summer. It still shows on the schedules but isn't available for booking, and this article confirms it was dropped due to the Max grounding:

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/new...020-1.24059090

Dominion301 Jan 23, 2020 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8809562)
Looks like YYZ-YKA also dropped this summer. It still shows on the schedules but isn't available for booking, and this article confirms it was dropped due to the Max grounding:

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/new...020-1.24059090

Will probably be back in 2021 on a Rouge 319. I think AC kept it at 1x weekly last summer.

I guess the extra DH4 on YKA-YYC will partially offset that.

Dominion301 Jan 23, 2020 9:18 PM

Here's YOW's 2019 December & year-end:

Sector Dec-18 / Dec-19 / % Change
Dom: 313,521 / 313,275 / +0.01%
TB: 62,408 / 58,636 / -11.4%
Int'l: 36,973 / 47,409 / +5.6%
TTL: 412,902 / 419,320 / -1.2%

Sector / YTD 2018 / YTD 2019 / % Change
Dom: 4,002,209 / 3,993,553 / -0.2%
TB: 720,770 / 686,297 / -4.8%
Int'l: 387,822 / 426,637 / +10.0%
TTL: 5,110,801 / 5,106,487 / -0.1%

Considering that YOW was impacted enough by the MAX grounding + losing UA for most of the year to ORD, to essentially break even in 2019 is pretty good.

I expect transborder in 2020 will come in at around break-even with the following known changes:
-More AC Florida flying until end of March vs 2019
-UA to ORD returns 3x daily in March, while UA are dropping EWR (-2x), leaving only AC 3x on the route
-AC cutting the YOW-MCO 2x weekly summer/fall service (likely due to the MAX)
-DL increasing YOW-LGA to 3x daily in late June

nname Jan 23, 2020 10:07 PM

Seems like a new airlines is coming:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2020-12

Stuck in the Middle Airlines?

Dominion301 Jan 23, 2020 10:14 PM

A cargo building at Chruchill, Man burns to the ground: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...port-1.5437193


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