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People can perform the mental gymnastics all they want about why the Bills Series isn't an accurate representation of possible support in the city; fact of the matter it is. |
^^ Agree 100%.
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It's true that the CFL is struggling in its largest markets (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal to an extent) and it should be pretty plainly obvious why, as EpicPonyTime pointed out and as have I on numerous occasions. There are systemic issues with the product as a whole and reaching out to Mexico or Japan is putting a mask on something that still has issues underneath. |
Toronto... the world's only NFL city that cannot actually attract a NFL team despite 30+ years of trying.
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Question. Way back in the day the Argos were a big deal. Even in the 90s they were still quite a draw. So when did Toronto become a non-football city?
I ask because over the years and up to this day you see people with NFL gear on and decals on their cars. My boss has a SUV with neatly done Steelers trim and a plate named after a legendary player. And at every job I've worked at I've been in NFL pools. And 10+ years ago I would watch the occasional game at a bar with a jersey on and I'd see a few other people with the shirt or hat on. My friends and I and quite a few people I know go on NFL roadies. One guy from my new job goes with his friends once a year to a random city. This time it was Nashville. I worked with someone else who does the same thing. And one of the flag football parents is on a mission to do all 32 teams. I coached in NFL Flag Football in Oakville and Milton for seven years and would see a few of the parents wearing some team gear or with the bumper sticker, but that of course is not the general population so there's some bias there. I worked with a guy, who I am still in touch with, that is an Argos STH and I've met a couple others through him. Though these are the only guys I know that go to games still. I've been a couple times with them but admittedly it's been a few years since. Though I still follow the Argos and the CFL. And I'll always have a soft spot for the Boatmen since 10 years ago when I won a PIzza Pizza contest to kick a 25 yard FG at the Dome against the Ti-Cats before kickoff. Got escorted down to the field by staff and walked the sideline and onto the field while all the players were warming up (basically a VIP lol). The girl gave me a half deflated ball and I asked for a good one and she said no can't do that. I pointed to coach Barker on the sideline who just so happened to be grabbing balls from their bag of balls and I said look how many good balls are over there. She still said no. I proceeded to completely shank the kick in front of about 10k fans (was well before kickoff). Here's a van I saw at Burlington Mall a couple of weeks ago. I showed my boss, who has Steelers shoes, gloves, backpack, etc. and told him you a ways to go to keep up with this guy: https://i.ibb.co/SV975W6/IMG-3521.jpg https://i.ibb.co/g36Qfz2/IMG-3522.jpg |
^ People in the rest of Canada follow the NFL too, it isn't just a Toronto thing. Plenty of people in Winnipeg have favourite NFL teams, go on NFL road trips, play in NFL pools, etc.
The only difference is that people outside the GTA generally don't grit their teeth and refuse to acknowledge the CFL. It is quite normal here to cheer for the Vikings, Packers, Patriots or whomever and also be a Blue Bombers season ticket holder. IMO the abject failure of the Bills in Toronto series was the clearest indication to me that football as a live spectator sport (as opposed to a TV show, given that both the NFL and CFL seem to do pretty good TV numbers there) was pretty well dead in Toronto. |
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So when did TO become a non-football city?
I went to a couple of those Bills TO games, but only because I bought cheap tix from people dumping them the day before. Those ticket prices were a joke and not everyone is a Bills fan, especially the younger generation who became used to their mediocrity. Even in their SB finalist days I recall Bills fans were more from Niagara and surrounding areas as opposed to the GTA. When I was a kid I remember actually wanting the 'Skins and Cowboys to win those SBs. The Giants one I was indifferent to. The game in Winnipeg this past summer also had comically high prices and people avoided that shit show like the Bills series. So what's the difference? I agree that 99% of GTA people don't talk about CFL. Other than the one STH I know from work, I literally have only discussed CFL with one other guy at work. Not because he follows it, but because his brother is president of TSN so he'll often discuss ratings and interest and the factors that affect those. Though to be fair this guy is very much a hockey guy above any other sport. But given that there's still high interest in NFL in the GTA, can Toronto still be called a non-football city? I for one think that if TO did have a team, and tickets weren't stupidly high like Cowboys tickets then I think the games would sell out. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if after 10 years they weren't selling out the stadium anymore but more like 3/4 full because it would be a truly passionate fan base. But I do think interest would be high with lots of people following the team and wearing the gear. |
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I posted about the fantastically entertaining world junior game and I don't think anybody responded. I get a channel called FreeSports that shows all kinds of different stuff, I watch hockey from the UK and find that interesting, be a fan. |
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Ya I agree it's based on definition. Like what's a great sports city? There's no clear answer.
The Jets and Giants pack the house based on attendance figures. But NY area does not follow college let alone HS. When the Big Ten poached Rutgers (central NJ) from the Big East they marketed them at NY's CFB team. Really I don't think anyone cares. Western and Central PA I think qualify as football hotbeds. State College (PSU) is in Central PA. Pittsburgh loves their Steelers and while Pitt football is not what it used to be people still like their Panthers. And there's decent support for HS but not like TX levels. A lot of great players and coaches come from this area. Philly in Eastern PA loves their Eagles, but people aren't packing the house to watch Temple or Villanova football. So how would Philly qualify? As for a great sports town, I'll throw one out there that really impresses me for not being a big city or within the orbit of one. Lubbock, TX, home of Texas Tech (5 hours away from Dallas): Football - not a traditional winning team mind you: Avg. attendance 55k to 58k in a 60k stadium. Basketball - not a traditional winning team: 12.1k in a 15k arena. Baseball: 4.1k in a 4.4k stadium |
I can see why a lot of people prefer football on TV. For NFL in particular, the TV timeouts extend the game and fans in the stadium are standing around doing nothing. Actually at a college game I was at once some guy shouted TV sucks during a TV timeout and some people started chanting FUCK TV! And NFL games take way too long.
With all that starting and stopping, I can't appreciate watching football live like watching hockey and basketball, which I think are the two best to be in attendance for. Throw in soccer too. A fluid game that only takes 1:50 to complete. Baseball is all about the stop and go as well but it has a tradition of being a slow game where people sit and talk about the game with the guy next to them. But that aspect is slowly declining. I far more appreciate being at a college game because the band and student section than an NFL game so that's the only reason I would prefer being at a game instead of watching it on TV unless there's the novelty aspect where I'd never been to the stadium before. Though if tickets were really cheap then I could justify going more. Or it football was my true passion. |
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Most guys I know who are diehards just adopted a team in junior high or high school for no particular reason and have stuck with them ever since. A lot of bandwagon jumpers too, but that's normal in all sports. |
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Go Niners! JK. |
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Obviously not everyone thinks that way :) |
One of my BIL watched the 85 SB between Pats and Bears and he liked the Pats unis and logo for some reason. He was a kid after all. And he's stuck with them since. Their dynasty is the cherry on top. He watches every game possible and will PVR it if he's at work. Same with Leafs.
However, he only went to his first Pats game like four years ago when a supplier at his job offered four club seat tickets to him at the 50 yard line. He'd have to pay for transpiration and boarding. He ended up taking his family and also watching a Bruins game. My other BIL likes the Ravens since their first SB. He was about 12. Just liked the cool name and colours. He's got the jersey and bobbleheads and hats. But he's not diehard. Judging by the number of Pats decals I see on cars, their fan base up here's gotta be 95% bandwagoners. |
Hard to blame anyone for being on the Pats bandwagon... if you're going to bandwagon for anyone, it might as well be for them.
I never paid much attention to the NFL but when I was a kid the Pats were a joke team, almost like the Browns or Lions. The level of success they've enjoyed since would have been unfathomable back then. |
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I am a Bears fan I chose them when I was young as my NFL team because they always had amazing defense that was so good it compensated for their lack of good Quarterback play. Also because they have such a rich history and lunch pale no nonsense playing philosophy.
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That said, go Riders. |
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In Canada, because the CFL has to go up against both the NFL and NCAA, the effect is magnified. Weaker competitions generally falter first, and that means in a place like Toronto interest in the NFL will more or less continue at the expense of the CFL - if one is going to decline it will be the naturally weaker product. Fans of a sport will always gravitate to whatever the top tier of that sport is, and in this case it's the NFL. Most gridiron fans I know in Toronto are either Bills or Browns fans. Obviously in a place like Winnipeg or Regina, which have much more history and a closer local tie to gridrion, these teams will persist through most of these downward trends. It'll be the larger markets that should worry the CFL moving forward. Quote:
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@TSN_PR
Team Canada’s instant-classic gold medal victory over Team Russia on Sunday at the 2020 #WorldJuniors attracted an average audience of 4.2 million viewers on TSN & RDS, becoming TSN’s most-watched World Juniors game ever broadcast from Europe. In addition, live streaming video starts more than doubled, up 122% over last year's number. |
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I'm a Steelers fan. It was because the Steelers were the toughest team in the NFL and they had a very lunch-pale essence to them - partially because they're in a city that was the steel-city capital of the US... which basically felt like Hamilton. It almost felt like a home team. But make no mistake - I'm a fan of the team, not the city. I love the Steelers but absolutely hate the Penguins. About 25 of the 32 NFL teams I personally know someone in Southern Ontario who is a fan of one of them. Painting your car with team colours/logos... I don't give a crap who/where that teams is - that's just stupid. |
I'm a Steelers fan as well, and as near as I can figure out why is because when I was a kid, we used to get our networks on cable in London from Erie PA (as well as Detroit, but I watched the Erie stations more). I used to watch Erie news, I knew who all the car dealers were there, I knew that annoying friggin lawyer who "we don't charge a fee unless we get money for you" as he pointed at the camera. And they talked Steelers a lot, and I liked Terry Bradshaw. And Terry is mainly why I choose Fox football pregames today.
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In any case, they'd be turning a profit regardless because of the TV deal the NFL has. |
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The 3rd most populated metro in NA would get an attendance worthy of last place in the NFL. All at the same time as people predict, like yourself, football will become irrelevant in 20 yrs. The discussion of TO getting an NFL team should end there. |
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My prediction for Toronto's 50K wasn't so much that it could only support that but that building a stadium any larger than that will be foolish. In-game NFL attendance is not trending upwards, so why would you build a 75K seat stadium when it's less likely to be full? Create ticket scarcity off the hop by using a 50K stadium. This would mean that Toronto could charge more for their 50K tickets than Cincinnati or Tampa could. Theoretically, anyway. Quote:
Anyway, Toronto could support a team but it likely wouldn't be worth the cost of both the team and the stadium. |
There are over 1 million American kids who play tackle football every year in the U.S. in high school. There was a 3% drop in participation yes but that still mean a massive amount of players every year to scout and choose from to get into the college ranks every year. Gridiron football will not die it will just have to evolve and may eventually mean tackling switches to a more rugby type style and helmets may be eliminated as they are more of a safety hazard and weapon than an actual safety mechanism.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook.../#739c0e7833de |
Hockey participation in Canada on the other hand is falling at an alarming rate as there are 100,000 less kids playing in Canada than just 5 years ago from 721,000 to 621,000 a 14% drop in participation.Yet very few talk about that.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-in-canada/ |
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Plus the Raptors success has opened the eyes of many in the NFL. The NFL has a problem with fan diversity... it's still largely a white fanbase (83% at last count). During the Raptors run people saw the massive diversity of its fanbase - and Toronto's been called the most multicultural city in the world - which is very attractive to leagues who need to expand their base. |
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The Senators are more valuable than the Avalanche, Predators, Hurricanes, Sabres, Blue Jackets, Panthers, and Coyotes. The Oilers are in the top half of the league for value. Quote:
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A typical promotion/relegation system rewards demand and allows teams able to spend money to play their way into the next tier. The bottom feeders are usually the teams worth the least. A system like that would see more Canadian teams at the top level and fewer in the US. There's no way that Miami and Phoenix would be there for example. Quote:
This mythical "global city" you want Toronto to be that only supports "the best" doesn't exist. No global city only supports "the best". Not New York. Not London. Not Tokyo. Not Moscow. Global cities don't shun their own country trying to chase "the best". This aspiration for an imaginary standard shows how immature sports fandom is in this city. |
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IIHF figures are...spotty, at best. It would be better to get numbers directly from Hockey Canada. Utilizing Hockey Canada's annual report yields that 521K players are officially registered to play hockey in Canada in 2019, up from 498K in 2009 but down from the high of 537K in 2013. (As an aside, and something i've mentioned on this forum before, is the relative decline of hockey being played in Quebec, down to 86K players from a high of 98K in 2012). This is only male numbers, of course. Female hockey participation is still increasing at a very high rate. And, on top of all of this, US hockey registration numbers are still increasing with continued room to grow. So male hockey has essentially plateaued in Canada with growth still possible in the US. Quote:
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Halifax's CFL team vs. Toronto's NFL team is the ultimate turtle derby.
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