I agree the Argos can be revived to the point of filling the stadium (26k). It will be a long process to reintroduce playing football and the other sports that will act as introductory sports to full tackle football to that market The process is already under way. It will never be THE game in town as it used to be with the Leafs. It doesn't have to be, just find its niche like TFC and go forward.

They aren't the best leagues, but they are the best leagues available here. You aren't going to get the top Rugby and Soccer leagues here. There is still the perception by many in Toronto that they can get the best football league there, even though the lack of support of the Bills series basically killed the idea. But besides that, attending NFL games in several cities isn't really that difficult from Toronto. I also don't know that throwing the Wolfpack in there is a real great comparison. The Argos would sell out Lamport at higher ticket prices than the Wolfpack get, but I doubt the Wolfpack puts as many people in BMO as the Argos do.

That isn't actually all that odd. Look at nearly any other sport and worldwide scouting is the norm. Football simply has a historical issue where it has largely been exclusive to North America. The CFL is trying to change that because it will increase the health of the league.

What is keeping Toronto from getting a NFL franchise is that Toronto is one of the worst football cities on the entire continent. Every single time they've been given an opportunity to demonstrate interest in the NFL (or football in general) they've failed to do so. It doesn't matter if the city supports the Leafs unconditionally and supports its other teams when they are winning. They don't support football. What's really weird is the obsession with getting it even though the interest is questionable. It's purely a matter of prestige at this point.

People can perform the mental gymnastics all they want about why the Bills Series isn't an accurate representation of possible support in the city; fact of the matter it is.

^^ Agree 100%.

I've been saying this for a while on this forum but apparently I know jack about sports so :shrug:

In another year or two I think both of these statements would be wrong.

Indeed.

You know that branded merch that reads TORONTO VS. EVERYBODY? Basically this forum.

It's true that the CFL is struggling in its largest markets (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal to an extent) and it should be pretty plainly obvious why, as EpicPonyTime pointed out and as have I on numerous occasions. There are systemic issues with the product as a whole and reaching out to Mexico or Japan is putting a mask on something that still has issues underneath.

Toronto... the world's only NFL city that cannot actually attract a NFL team despite 30+ years of trying.

So if it is dying and has no hope why do you feel the need to troll it with your every post. Surely it doesn't need your help. Or do you do it to just take attention away from the Ponzi scheme of a third rate soccer league that you try to spin to us that is so successful. So successful that all three Canadian teams attendances are down (in the same cities as the CFL) and so is TFC's after winning the championship. Shouldn't that have gone up? Awaiting usual google search and spin doctoring.

Question. Way back in the day the Argos were a big deal. Even in the 90s they were still quite a draw. So when did Toronto become a non-football city?

I ask because over the years and up to this day you see people with NFL gear on and decals on their cars. My boss has a SUV with neatly done Steelers trim and a plate named after a legendary player.

And at every job I've worked at I've been in NFL pools. And 10+ years ago I would watch the occasional game at a bar with a jersey on and I'd see a few other people with the shirt or hat on.

My friends and I and quite a few people I know go on NFL roadies. One guy from my new job goes with his friends once a year to a random city. This time it was Nashville. I worked with someone else who does the same thing. And one of the flag football parents is on a mission to do all 32 teams.

I coached in NFL Flag Football in Oakville and Milton for seven years and would see a few of the parents wearing some team gear or with the bumper sticker, but that of course is not the general population so there's some bias there.

I worked with a guy, who I am still in touch with, that is an Argos STH and I've met a couple others through him. Though these are the only guys I know that go to games still. I've been a couple times with them but admittedly it's been a few years since. Though I still follow the Argos and the CFL.

And I'll always have a soft spot for the Boatmen since 10 years ago when I won a PIzza Pizza contest to kick a 25 yard FG at the Dome against the Ti-Cats before kickoff. Got escorted down to the field by staff and walked the sideline and onto the field while all the players were warming up (basically a VIP lol). The girl gave me a half deflated ball and I asked for a good one and she said no can't do that. I pointed to coach Barker on the sideline who just so happened to be grabbing balls from their bag of balls and I said look how many good balls are over there. She still said no. I proceeded to completely shank the kick in front of about 10k fans (was well before kickoff).

Here's a van I saw at Burlington Mall a couple of weeks ago. I showed my boss, who has Steelers shoes, gloves, backpack, etc. and told him you a ways to go to keep up with this guy:

https://i.ibb.co/SV975W6/IMG-3521.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/g36Qfz2/IMG-3522.jpg

^ People in the rest of Canada follow the NFL too, it isn't just a Toronto thing. Plenty of people in Winnipeg have favourite NFL teams, go on NFL road trips, play in NFL pools, etc.

The only difference is that people outside the GTA generally don't grit their teeth and refuse to acknowledge the CFL. It is quite normal here to cheer for the Vikings, Packers, Patriots or whomever and also be a Blue Bombers season ticket holder.

IMO the abject failure of the Bills in Toronto series was the clearest indication to me that football as a live spectator sport (as opposed to a TV show, given that both the NFL and CFL seem to do pretty good TV numbers there) was pretty well dead in Toronto.

Bang on I am 35 here in Winnipeg me and my buddies are always in NFL fantasy pools and we watch both NFL and CFL.

So when did TO become a non-football city?

I went to a couple of those Bills TO games, but only because I bought cheap tix from people dumping them the day before. Those ticket prices were a joke and not everyone is a Bills fan, especially the younger generation who became used to their mediocrity. Even in their SB finalist days I recall Bills fans were more from Niagara and surrounding areas as opposed to the GTA. When I was a kid I remember actually wanting the 'Skins and Cowboys to win those SBs. The Giants one I was indifferent to.

The game in Winnipeg this past summer also had comically high prices and people avoided that shit show like the Bills series. So what's the difference?

I agree that 99% of GTA people don't talk about CFL. Other than the one STH I know from work, I literally have only discussed CFL with one other guy at work. Not because he follows it, but because his brother is president of TSN so he'll often discuss ratings and interest and the factors that affect those. Though to be fair this guy is very much a hockey guy above any other sport.

But given that there's still high interest in NFL in the GTA, can Toronto still be called a non-football city? I for one think that if TO did have a team, and tickets weren't stupidly high like Cowboys tickets then I think the games would sell out. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if after 10 years they weren't selling out the stadium anymore but more like 3/4 full because it would be a truly passionate fan base. But I do think interest would be high with lots of people following the team and wearing the gear.

I guess it depends on what your definition of a football city is. In much of the US, football fans will follow NFL, college, high school and some even CFL, because they are real football fans, they love the game. There is not so much of this childish, it's not the best routine. Good entertainment is good entertainment.

I posted about the fantastically entertaining world junior game and I don't think anybody responded. I get a channel called FreeSports that shows all kinds of different stuff, I watch hockey from the UK and find that interesting, be a fan.

I think the Braley years where he killed marketing (same as in BC now) were the definite starting point. Since the heydays of the 70s, the Argos had several feast and famine cycles, there were some terrible years that they were able to recover from, now I really don`t know.

I don't think you can point to a specific point in time, rather football has been on a steady decline as a live spectator sport. Both the CFL and NFL get healthy ratings in the GTA, but fans simply have shown they are unenthusiastic about spending money to watch football in a stadium. This is true regardless of whether it is the Argos, or the Bills, or the NCAA (which held the International Bowl for 4 years at SkyDome). It certainly seems like a game people like to watch from the comfort of their sofas. I don't really know why.

Ya I agree it's based on definition. Like what's a great sports city? There's no clear answer.

The Jets and Giants pack the house based on attendance figures. But NY area does not follow college let alone HS. When the Big Ten poached Rutgers (central NJ) from the Big East they marketed them at NY's CFB team. Really I don't think anyone cares.

Western and Central PA I think qualify as football hotbeds. State College (PSU) is in Central PA. Pittsburgh loves their Steelers and while Pitt football is not what it used to be people still like their Panthers. And there's decent support for HS but not like TX levels. A lot of great players and coaches come from this area.

Philly in Eastern PA loves their Eagles, but people aren't packing the house to watch Temple or Villanova football. So how would Philly qualify?

As for a great sports town, I'll throw one out there that really impresses me for not being a big city or within the orbit of one. Lubbock, TX, home of Texas Tech (5 hours away from Dallas):

Football - not a traditional winning team mind you:
Avg. attendance 55k to 58k in a 60k stadium.

Basketball - not a traditional winning team:
12.1k in a 15k arena.

Baseball:
4.1k in a 4.4k stadium

I can see why a lot of people prefer football on TV. For NFL in particular, the TV timeouts extend the game and fans in the stadium are standing around doing nothing. Actually at a college game I was at once some guy shouted TV sucks during a TV timeout and some people started chanting FUCK TV! And NFL games take way too long.

With all that starting and stopping, I can't appreciate watching football live like watching hockey and basketball, which I think are the two best to be in attendance for. Throw in soccer too. A fluid game that only takes 1:50 to complete.

Baseball is all about the stop and go as well but it has a tradition of being a slow game where people sit and talk about the game with the guy next to them. But that aspect is slowly declining.

I far more appreciate being at a college game because the band and student section than an NFL game so that's the only reason I would prefer being at a game instead of watching it on TV unless there's the novelty aspect where I'd never been to the stadium before. Though if tickets were really cheap then I could justify going more. Or it football was my true passion.

I love how people have arbitrary favourite NFL teams in Winnipeg (I'm not being sarcastic). I always laugh when I meet someone who is a die-hard fan of a team for which they have no connection. I guess the Vikings as a favourite is acceptable here, maybe Green Bay or Chicago (based on geography) but that's about it. And I'm not talking about liking a team based on the current players or staff. I am talking about the guys who get their cars painted and support the team through good and bad years.

It's pretty random. Vikes are probably number one due to geographical proximity (Minneapolis is the only NFL city you can drive to in a day), but even then they have only a marginal lead on other teams in that regard. It's not like there is a huge Vikings fanbase here.

Most guys I know who are diehards just adopted a team in junior high or high school for no particular reason and have stuck with them ever since. A lot of bandwagon jumpers too, but that's normal in all sports.

I know a guy with a Ravens tattoo. I don't think he has ever been to Baltimore. But I guess tattoos aren't seen to be the commitment they once were.

Go Niners! JK.

I can't relate to that. To me, sports and geography are totally intertwined. Every team I root for has Winnipeg or Manitoba in the name. I couldn't fathom just randomly cheering for Detroit or whatever, unless my kid played on that team.

Obviously not everyone thinks that way :)

One of my BIL watched the 85 SB between Pats and Bears and he liked the Pats unis and logo for some reason. He was a kid after all. And he's stuck with them since. Their dynasty is the cherry on top. He watches every game possible and will PVR it if he's at work. Same with Leafs.

However, he only went to his first Pats game like four years ago when a supplier at his job offered four club seat tickets to him at the 50 yard line. He'd have to pay for transpiration and boarding. He ended up taking his family and also watching a Bruins game.

My other BIL likes the Ravens since their first SB. He was about 12. Just liked the cool name and colours. He's got the jersey and bobbleheads and hats. But he's not diehard.

Judging by the number of Pats decals I see on cars, their fan base up here's gotta be 95% bandwagoners.

Hard to blame anyone for being on the Pats bandwagon... if you're going to bandwagon for anyone, it might as well be for them.

I never paid much attention to the NFL but when I was a kid the Pats were a joke team, almost like the Browns or Lions. The level of success they've enjoyed since would have been unfathomable back then.

One would think a normal person would have a connection with their home team and some interest in others, not exclude their home team and only support others. At this site I'm one of the few who thinks that way :)

I am a Bears fan I chose them when I was young as my NFL team because they always had amazing defense that was so good it compensated for their lack of good Quarterback play. Also because they have such a rich history and lunch pale no nonsense playing philosophy.

I don't think it's a matter of someone being "normal". A lot of people support their home team because of hometown pride, but it's not a mandatory part of fandom. It's sports; people can like who they like.

That said, go Riders.

No, it's not mandatory but the action is normal or routine, for the most part.

This is the reasoning I used when I voted in the last federal election.

Gridiron will be facing a general downward trend in the near future anyway as youth participation deteriorates and holes start showing through in the regional displacement of participation. In the US, the sport is moving in a downward trend in high schools as the other sports more-or-less maintain or, in the case of soccer as one example, increase. Although TV ratings for the NFL continue to be strong there is beginning to be holes in raw attendance at games (Cincinnati, Washington, Tampa, as three examples). The NFL should take a page from the NBA's book and begin looking at ways to make the season more interesting. Obviously this isn't a five year window of downward trending but more like a ten or twenty year window.

In Canada, because the CFL has to go up against both the NFL and NCAA, the effect is magnified. Weaker competitions generally falter first, and that means in a place like Toronto interest in the NFL will more or less continue at the expense of the CFL - if one is going to decline it will be the naturally weaker product. Fans of a sport will always gravitate to whatever the top tier of that sport is, and in this case it's the NFL. Most gridiron fans I know in Toronto are either Bills or Browns fans. Obviously in a place like Winnipeg or Regina, which have much more history and a closer local tie to gridrion, these teams will persist through most of these downward trends. It'll be the larger markets that should worry the CFL moving forward.

I think there would be a lot of variables at play but Toronto could reasonably get 50K out for eight games a year. One of those variables would be stadium & location, which I think would be a big determining factor in getting people out. NFL stadiums are like a 25/75 urban/suburb split, so a stadium in North York seems more likely than a stadium downtown. It depends on if you think most of your fanbase is commuting in from the GTA outskirts or the city proper, and I would bet a large sum of money that most gridiron fans would be coming in from places like Oshawa, Oakville, and Newmarket than Toronto proper.

Everyone loves a championship bandwagon.

@TSN_PR
Team Canada’s instant-classic gold medal victory over Team Russia on Sunday at the 2020 #WorldJuniors attracted an average audience of 4.2 million viewers on TSN & RDS, becoming TSN’s most-watched World Juniors game ever broadcast from Europe.

In addition, live streaming video starts more than doubled, up 122% over last year's number.

You think there's no connection, but there usually is. Sometimes that connection is simply really liking the talents of a specific player on that team. Or it could be the performance of the whole team which attracts them. It could be the uniforms, logos or team name - or any combination of them. It could be because they know someone in that city. Or the team is owned by a person who runs another company they like. There are plenty of reasons to have a connection other than just being from or close to that city.

I'm a Steelers fan. It was because the Steelers were the toughest team in the NFL and they had a very lunch-pale essence to them - partially because they're in a city that was the steel-city capital of the US... which basically felt like Hamilton. It almost felt like a home team. But make no mistake - I'm a fan of the team, not the city. I love the Steelers but absolutely hate the Penguins.

About 25 of the 32 NFL teams I personally know someone in Southern Ontario who is a fan of one of them.

Painting your car with team colours/logos... I don't give a crap who/where that teams is - that's just stupid.

I'm a Steelers fan as well, and as near as I can figure out why is because when I was a kid, we used to get our networks on cable in London from Erie PA (as well as Detroit, but I watched the Erie stations more). I used to watch Erie news, I knew who all the car dealers were there, I knew that annoying friggin lawyer who "we don't charge a fee unless we get money for you" as he pointed at the camera. And they talked Steelers a lot, and I liked Terry Bradshaw. And Terry is mainly why I choose Fox football pregames today.

In other words, Toronto would be drawing the same amount as Cincinnati and Tampa, two teams you highlighted as being struggling cities for the league. But I think that is a spot on prediction. An NFL team in Toronto would never be a 75K attraction.

I think they'd be able to get a consistent 60k. 75k is doubtful outside of playoffs, but if Toronto were ever to get a new stadium - it would be domed and probably only have a max capacity of 60k or so anyway. Something similar to Ford Field in size and modesty.

In any case, they'd be turning a profit regardless because of the TV deal the NFL has.

The 3rd most populated metro in NA would get an attendance worthy of last place in the NFL. All at the same time as people predict, like yourself, football will become irrelevant in 20 yrs. The discussion of TO getting an NFL team should end there.

May as well setup shop then in Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, as I’m sure that they’d all get close to the numbers you’d predict for Toronto. And even if they don’t, they’d still be turning a profit regardless because of the TV deal the NFL has... that’s how it works, right?

That struck me as contradictory as well.

It's a tough row to hoe when they want to pretend they're not trying to kill one brand of football while at the same time keeping another. Good to see someone else questioning that "logic"

TV deal pays about a billion per team over 8 years. Salary cap is projected to be $200m per team in 2020. TV deal is great for those already owning a team. When you have to spend over 3 billion to buy a team and build a stadium, the numbers get a little more difficult.

The difference being that these markets used to attract more than 50K and do not anymore. In New York, and a few other markets, season seat holders are trying to sell their PSLs at a loss and cannot because their market value is so low and the market is flooded. The Redskins have lost something like 15K in average in the last few years.

My prediction for Toronto's 50K wasn't so much that it could only support that but that building a stadium any larger than that will be foolish. In-game NFL attendance is not trending upwards, so why would you build a 75K seat stadium when it's less likely to be full? Create ticket scarcity off the hop by using a 50K stadium. This would mean that Toronto could charge more for their 50K tickets than Cincinnati or Tampa could. Theoretically, anyway.

It's still an extremely in-demand product even with a potential for falling off in the medium to long-term future. Similar to the CFL, the NFL is reaching abroad to try to find a larger player base (and revenues...). The NFL has an academy set up in the UK to try to find additional players and will look to eventually host a Super Bowl in the UK. They need international players because their US numbers are not holding steady and need to find additional revenues internationally.

Anyway, Toronto could support a team but it likely wouldn't be worth the cost of both the team and the stadium.

There are over 1 million American kids who play tackle football every year in the U.S. in high school. There was a 3% drop in participation yes but that still mean a massive amount of players every year to scout and choose from to get into the college ranks every year. Gridiron football will not die it will just have to evolve and may eventually mean tackling switches to a more rugby type style and helmets may be eliminated as they are more of a safety hazard and weapon than an actual safety mechanism.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook.../#739c0e7833de

Hockey participation in Canada on the other hand is falling at an alarming rate as there are 100,000 less kids playing in Canada than just 5 years ago from 721,000 to 621,000 a 14% drop in participation.Yet very few talk about that.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-in-canada/

Toronto has a much bigger corporate support base than those cities... and that's crucial. Also Toronto drives the TV market in Canada - and the franchise and the league wants the maximum amount of exposure possible in the country. THAT's how it works.

Plus the Raptors success has opened the eyes of many in the NFL. The NFL has a problem with fan diversity... it's still largely a white fanbase (83% at last count). During the Raptors run people saw the massive diversity of its fanbase - and Toronto's been called the most multicultural city in the world - which is very attractive to leagues who need to expand their base.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if TFC were in the actual best soccer league in North America ("available here") that they wouldn't get much support. The NFL isn't available here either. Toronto's best-or-nothing attitude is the opposite of what the NFL wants.

That's because it's not an NFL city.

"Quebecor, the group leading the way for an expansion franchise for Quebec City, officially submitted their $500 million NHL expansion application in July of 2015"
The Senators are more valuable than the Avalanche, Predators, Hurricanes, Sabres, Blue Jackets, Panthers, and Coyotes. The Oilers are in the top half of the league for value.

Straw man. I never said anything like that. In nearly every top level professional league, cities with a few hundred thousand people have teams. Including leagues worth a lot more than the NHL.

Would you like me to explain the definition of "hypothetical" to you?

And yet Canadian teams are, on average, more valuable than American ones.

A typical promotion/relegation system rewards demand and allows teams able to spend money to play their way into the next tier. The bottom feeders are usually the teams worth the least. A system like that would see more Canadian teams at the top level and fewer in the US. There's no way that Miami and Phoenix would be there for example.

Toronto doesn't have teams in every major league but one.

This mythical "global city" you want Toronto to be that only supports "the best" doesn't exist. No global city only supports "the best". Not New York. Not London. Not Tokyo. Not Moscow. Global cities don't shun their own country trying to chase "the best".

This aspiration for an imaginary standard shows how immature sports fandom is in this city.

Yea, I'm not counting stadium cost into the equation... was mostly talking about attendance and the size of the stadium Toronto would have if they were to get a stadium built. But with the TV money coming in - each team gets around 255m per team - so that covers the salary cap with some money left over. The ticket revenue generated goes a long way towards cutting into stadium and other costs. It's still a pricey proposition - but not as bad as you would think.

It was a 10% decline over the past decade, at a time when basketball, baseball, and soccer increased.

Sounds like kids should just play rugby, then.

A lot of people talk about declining youth hockey participation, actually. It's an inherently expensive sport with extreme demographic issues.

IIHF figures are...spotty, at best. It would be better to get numbers directly from Hockey Canada. Utilizing Hockey Canada's annual report yields that 521K players are officially registered to play hockey in Canada in 2019, up from 498K in 2009 but down from the high of 537K in 2013. (As an aside, and something i've mentioned on this forum before, is the relative decline of hockey being played in Quebec, down to 86K players from a high of 98K in 2012).

This is only male numbers, of course. Female hockey participation is still increasing at a very high rate. And, on top of all of this, US hockey registration numbers are still increasing with continued room to grow. So male hockey has essentially plateaued in Canada with growth still possible in the US.

I'm not saying that pro/rel is an inherently worse system, because it isn't; i'm saying it's not going to be implemented in North America in our lifetimes. I fully understand the concept of an open system of association clubs. I hope you understand that such a system would inherently hold the NHL back due to Canada's lesser international value and would hold the sport back from growth in the US that it needs to maintain its current level of play.

I have a difficult time imagining that hypothetical NHL teams in Kingston or Brandon would be valued higher than Colorado or Carolina, or that if the Toronto market was cut four ways that all four teams would persist with that high of a valuation.

Toronto is the third biggest city proper in the US and Canada. It's not the third biggest metro, because metro populations in the US are ridiculous. And no, the Golden Horseshoe isn't Toronto's metro.

Toronto's football fanbase is predominantly white, so this seems like a stretch. The NFL could achieve the same goals without having to expand at all, since it isn't like New York or Los Angeles lack diversity. Definitely less expensive to focus on the highly multicultural cities they already have, rather than adding another team in the hopes it will for some reason become popular with that city's non-white population.

Is it just that Hispanics who’ve recently arrived from Central America and Mexico (and probably a lot of Asian immigrants as well) don’t know/care much about the NFL? I wouldn’t have thought that black Americans were any less interested than whites. I don’t see how expanding to Toronto would affect that type of “diversity problem”.

I am not sure how you came up with this though.

Sorry, I stand corrected. The ya re the 3rd largest city proper, and 7th largest metro.

Halifax's CFL team vs. Toronto's NFL team is the ultimate turtle derby.