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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

Acajack Jul 12, 2019 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8630640)
CFL used to get a few games above 1M each regular season - now it's news when they hit 700K. The league hasn't had a regular season game over the 1M mark since 2015. The article is probably right to bring attention to a 6% decline so far this season after a 4% increase last season.

To shine more of a light on this: in 2018, of the 77 games we have data for, nine of them had audiences between 300K-400K on TSN. In 2019 we've already had five such games through Week 4. It seems to be that if the CFL starts its season before Canada Day both its gate and TV audiences take a hit. I'm interested to see if there will still be a push for June starts moving forward.

I know this year was the Raptors run and etc. etc. but what happens if the CFL starts in June and the Jets/Leafs/Canucks/Flames are on a run to the Cup Final? How do the Bombers fair on a Thursday night if the Jets are playing in the SCF on Wednesday and Friday? These are questions and risks the CFL will have to take, I imagine. This year's SCF ran until June 12.


Having a TV with TSN is not free.


A good question.


The difference between "the big leagues" and the CFL is that CFL teams still rely heavily on gate receipts. If one combines gates with the TSN payment to each team you're looking at a heavy chunk of a team's overall revenue in those two sources. Other leagues are able to branch out more with sponsors, corporate partnerships, etc. and the CFL simply doesn't have that ability on a wider level.

Add 150-250,000 (RDS) to the posted TSN number for any game involving Montreal.

Acajack Jul 12, 2019 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8630693)
How does TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact make the money? Do they get more/better sponsors? Their attendances in each respective city is better than the CFL counterpart, maybe aside from Montreal, but their tv audiences surely don’t. How does MLS as a league tv audiences compare to the CFL?

Impact games averaged 175000 last year on TVA Sports only. They are usually slightly lower than Alouettes games on RDS. About 50-100,000 lower. But audiences are growing and they are catching up.

JHikka Jul 12, 2019 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
TFC loses tonnes of money. Approximately $10 million last year. And tens of millions the previous years before that.

They also operate with one of the highest payrolls in MLS at $22M/season. Compare that to Montreal's $12M or Vancouver's $9M. They also just spent $13M on Pozuelo. I think they'll be ok. :hmmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Montreal lost $11 million last year and if the owner doesn't receive subsidies from the city to improve his facility, which is one of the worst in MLS, the team is likely living on borrowed time. Their losses are likely to be worse for 2019 as attendance is down nearly 3,000 per game this year...all this after the owner complained about lack of corporate and season ticket sales which he had hoped to improve this year.

Vancouver loses several million per year. Their gate revenue is likely to drop significantly this year as attendance is already down approx. 1000 per game from last year and will become worse as the season progresses; the team is terrible. Selling off Davies mitigates those annual losses but likely only for next 4-5 years. The issue with the Whitecaps is BC Place for which their revenue streams are extremely limited. They are at or near the bottom of the league for revenues. With all the recent additions of new MLS stadiums now and in the near future, the gap between rich and poor has become significantly bigger.

The difference between MLS and CFL finances is that MLS teams are plugged into the single entity model via Soccer United Marketing - as long as SUM continues to operate and provide direct business back into soccer and MLS then the teams individually can continue losing money. Think of it like a big boat that all MLS franchise exist on. Team values are speculative, of course, but if groups are willing to spend $200M+ to join the club then the Canadian MLS teams can continue losing a couple million/year on speculation alone. Again, we can also get into issues regarding teams intentionally losing money for the sake of taxes, spending money on infrastructure, and the murky modeling of MLS' finances on the best of days.

I've had previous posts on this topic outlining things like MLS team assets, training facility development, and etc. The Canadian MLS teams are more-or-less fine for the immediate future, regardless of how much Saputo moans about taxes or land deals. ;)

The main difference is that the Canadian MLS teams are more financially stable than the CFL counterparts that they share markets with on the sole basis that their sponsorship and corporate backing is stronger. That's before we get into things like gate receipts, attendances, and, gasp, TV viewing figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Rapid expansion will not abet with 3 new teams set to join in the next 2 years, the likelihood of another 2 the following 2 years and upwards of 32 teams in 5 years. All to establish a footprint in the US with the hopes of receiving a huge tv contract. As I said before, the ratings gains are modest so don't expect that to happen and when the expansion money dries up, team valuations are likely to stabilize and possibly even decline.

A new TV deal will almost certainly be a big step up over the current $720M deal. The current deal ends in 2022 with the World Cup taking place in North America in 2026, so one building off the other will be easy enough. Given the growth in the NBA and MLB contracts it's easy to assume MLS will see a similar increase in their deal. They're encouraging their teams to sign short-term local TV deals so they can package national and local rights together in 2022 (what this means for the Canadian teams, however, remains to be seen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)
Back to Vancouver and Montreal, in the event they are not able to resolve their issues in the medium term, I could see one or both eventually move to a mid-sized American city. Many are in the planning stages for swanky 18 - 20,000 seat stadiums for which the teams would have complete revenue control. This might be an attractive alternative for the Canadian owners should push come to shove.

There's no reason why Canadian MLS teams should relocate when owners groups in the US are willing to pay for expansion teams. It's also looking likely at this point that MLS will blow past 32 teams and simply continue expanding until 36 or so. After Miami, Nashville, and Austin there's Sacramento, St. Louis, Las Vegas, and Charlotte. Adding in the perpetual Detroit rumours gets the league to 32 fairly easily. I really don't think any of the Canadian MLS teams are at risk of relocation, especially after the amount of effort we saw put into Columbus to keep the Crew in that city.

EpicPonyTime Jul 13, 2019 7:13 PM

Only 24K in Winnipeg for their game last night, a surprisingly small crowd for the league's (current) best team.

The CFL as a whole just seems to be struggling this year in particular, and it's really hard to understand why. It's hard to believe that several thousand fans in these cities just decided not to bother anymore over the summer.

elly63 Jul 14, 2019 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8631642)
Only 24K in Winnipeg for their game last night, a surprisingly small crowd for the league's (current) best team.

The CFL as a whole just seems to be struggling this year in particular, and it's really hard to understand why. It's hard to believe that several thousand fans in these cities just decided not to bother anymore over the summer.

I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, some people choose to see negative and some choose to see positive. In my mind, seeing negative doesn't help matters. Most sports are down in one way or another in terms of viewership etc. It's a changing landscape, as I said before there are some that get something out of watching others play video games. To each his own.

It seemed everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon to bury the Als, but despite the obstacles they are proving the doubters/haterz wrong.

Some people just need to surround themselves in hype or what is popular in the mainstream. The basketball thread was mainly dead until the Raptor playoff run started. Posts about our national team or Canadians in the NBA didn't get much play but when the Raps got hot the bandwagon got bigger and bigger.

EpicPonyTime Jul 15, 2019 1:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8631951)
I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, some people choose to see negative and some choose to see positive. In my mind, seeing negative doesn't help matters. Most sports are down in one way or another in terms of viewership etc. It's a changing landscape, as I said before there are some that get something out of watching others play video games. To each his own.

It seemed everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon to bury the Als, but despite the obstacles they are proving the doubters/haterz wrong.

Some people just need to surround themselves in hype or what is popular in the mainstream. The basketball thread was mainly dead until the Raptor playoff run started. Posts about our national team or Canadians in the NBA didn't get much play but when the Raps got hot the bandwagon got bigger and bigger.

I mean, I'm all for seeing the positive in the league's current outlook, but what exactly is positive about a 4-0 team in Winnipeg drawing only 24K to a weekend game? Attendance is slipping in every market (even Sask didn't sell out its home opener) and TV ratings have been trending downward. So far there's only been one game with 30K+ attending. It's hard to be optimistic about where the league is heading, and that's coming from a major CFL supporter.

JHikka Jul 15, 2019 8:07 PM

The rumoured expansion fee for a CPL team now sits at $9M according to an interview with the President of the Quebec Soccer Federation.

https://twitter.com/tristandamours/s...21476980985856

Also, an NBLC team has bit the dust:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8632825)
https://www.thetelegram.com/sports/b...4QvLSE.twitter

Cape Breton Highlanders suspend NBLC operations

SYDNEY, N.S. — Tyrone Levingston says it’ll take an additional $250,000 to $300,000 a year in capital investment to resume Cape Breton Highlanders’ basketball operations in Sydney.
The professional team that has played in the National Basketball League of Canada since the 2016-17 season suspended operations indefinitely Friday.

Levingston, 36, a native of Detroit, has been the team’s president and general manager since the beginning. He moved to Cape Breton two years before the first tip-off at Centre 200 in December 2016 to secure the financing to make it a viable franchise.

The team always operated on a “shoestring” budget, Levingston admitted in an interview Friday. He said the Highlanders have a total annual budget of $225,000 a year when more established and financially secure teams have budgets of $500,000 or more.


Hackslack Jul 15, 2019 8:31 PM

Pretty amazing that a CPL franchise fee is pretty much on par with a CFL expansion franchise fee, according to CFLdb.ca

What is the economic reason CPL franchise fees are on par with the CFL. TV contracts? Gate revenue? Kit sponsors? Facility assets?

https://cfldb.ca/faq/league/

JHikka Jul 15, 2019 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 8632978)
What is the economic reason CPL franchise fees are on par with the CFL. TV contracts? Gate revenue? Kit sponsors? Facility assets?

Owning a CPL franchise would get the potential owners into a share of Canada Soccer Business.

https://www.canadasoccer.com/canadia...anada--p161479

CSB effectively represents all Canadian soccer marketing and corporate activities. Owning a CPL team gets an owner a share of the pie that they make on revenues and partnerships. Between CSB's agreements with MediaPro and their corporate partnerships via CPL it's probably fair that their expansion fees are nearing $9M.

thenoflyzone Jul 16, 2019 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 8631091)

Montreal lost $11 million last year and if the owner doesn't receive subsidies from the city to improve his facility, which is one of the worst in MLS, the team is likely living on borrowed time.

What's wrong with Saputo stadium?

Been to several games there, and I see nothing wrong with the stadium. It's a nice soccer specific facility.

Been to a game at BMO field as well, and there is nothing different between the two, as far as fan experience goes.

NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

(I'm considering BMO Field as soccer specific, even though technically it no longer is)

JHikka Jul 16, 2019 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8633154)
NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

Eh, Yankee Stadium is a great facility; it's just not designed for soccer. BC Place is a great facility; it's just not right-sized for MLS. :shrug:

Saputo is definitely near the bottom end of MLS facilities all things considered, down there with Columbus and Dallas and Chicago. They're just very basic soccer stadiums. There's nothing wrong with that per se it's just that the standard in MLS has been improving and Saputo hasn't taken that next step yet.

king10 Jul 16, 2019 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8633154)
What's wrong with Saputo stadium?

Been to several games there, and I see nothing wrong with the stadium. It's a nice soccer specific facility.

Been to a game at BMO field as well, and there is nothing different between the two, as far as fan experience goes.

NYCFC and Vancouver have the worse stadiums in the league. Saputo is nowhere near as bad. In fact, all the non-soccer specific stadiums in the league are the worse.

(I'm considering BMO Field as soccer specific, even though technically it no longer is)

Saputo and BMO are quite different. Saputo is metal bleachers with semi permanent concession stands underneath. BMO is majority concrete with climate controlled luxury areas and permanent concessions.

Saputo construction cost was about $50M whereas BMO was $75M with a $120M reno which added a roof and much more indoor luxury space. You can tell the difference.

Rico Rommheim Jul 16, 2019 4:05 PM

Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ". It could really use an upgrade.

However, few fans I've spoken to seem to care or notice. And it's true that the stadium offers a good fan experience both above and under the bleachers. You have a direct connection to the metro and get a great view of the Olympic stadium tower. But yeah, it's low budget.

thenoflyzone Jul 16, 2019 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)
Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ".

98% of construction projects in Quebec are "broche a foin". What else is new.

The Olympic stadium needs (and will get) an upgrade. Saputo stadium is fine the way it is, at least for the short-medium term. Sure it's low budget, but I think Saputo did a good job meeting the MLS requirements with the stadium when they joined the league, all the while not wasting too much money. I'll take a low budget stadium with decent soccer players, vs a high end stadium with crappy players anyday....

Joey Saputo put his priorities in the right places I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)

However, few fans I've spoken to seem to care or notice.

Exactly my point.

Cheap tickets, good location, decent amount of roof covered seats, cheap and good food/drinks (ex. compared to Bell Centre), family friendly, a nice grass field exclusive to soccer (unlike BMO field or BC place), tight seating around said grass field, optimizing line of sight and closeness to the action, etc, etc.

A fan doesn't need much else. Metal bleachers or no. Besides, those metal bleachers make some great noise when 20,000+ fans stomp on them.

I fail to see the reasoning behind why the team would move because of the stadium. The fans seem happy with it. Pumping in $100 million+ for some upgrades that aren't really needed will jack up ticket prices, and that will only aggravate the attendance figures.

JHikka Jul 16, 2019 6:48 PM

Per MLB, Sportsnet had 2.6M viewers for the Home Run Derby.

ScreamingViking Jul 17, 2019 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by king10 (Post 8633546)
Saputo and BMO are quite different. Saputo is metal bleachers with semi permanent concession stands underneath. BMO is majority concrete with climate controlled luxury areas and permanent concessions.

Saputo construction cost was about $50M whereas BMO was $75M with a $120M reno which added a roof and much more indoor luxury space. You can tell the difference.

BMO still has a "cheap" feel to me. Not to be a Ticats fan homer, but while THF was built based on value-for-money it feels far more enduring to me.

Roof on three sides is a big plus for BMO Field, but the seating is pretty flimsy and tight (I've sat in the upper sections of both the west and east grandstands, but maybe it differs lower down?)

The concession offerings are stellar though. Location is great. Regional and local transit connections are great. Despite having to shoehorn a CFL field in there it's a wonderful place to watch a CFL game. :tup:

elly63 Jul 17, 2019 1:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8632543)
I mean, I'm all for seeing the positive in the league's current outlook, but what exactly is positive about a 4-0 team in Winnipeg drawing only 24K to a weekend game? Attendance is slipping in every market (even Sask didn't sell out its home opener) and TV ratings have been trending downward. So far there's only been one game with 30K+ attending. It's hard to be optimistic about where the league is heading, and that's coming from a major CFL supporter.

And what were you hoping to accomplish with your post, do you think it was going to help attendance. I honestly don't mean to shit on ya but there is a fight for entertainment dollars and you want to portray something you love in a good light to help attract others, not push them away.

Saw a post at another site where an American poster said, "it's a fun game", should we try and get back to that instead of the incessant chicken little stuff. There was an SI article that had the league killed off in the late 1980s and over 30 years later it's still kicking and stronger than then.

There's enough people here who want to kill the CFL (which I can't figure out why), if you're a fan, please don't help them.

EpicPonyTime Jul 17, 2019 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8634154)
And what were you hoping to accomplish with your post, do you think it was going to help attendance. I honestly don't mean to shit on ya but there is a fight for entertainment dollars and you want to portray something you love in a good light to help attract others, not push them away.

Saw a post at another site where an American poster said, "it's a fun game", should we try and get back to that instead of the incessant chicken little stuff. There was an SI article that had the league killed off in the late 1980s and over 30 years later it's still kicking and stronger than then.

There's enough people here who want to kill the CFL (which I can't figure out why), if you're a fan, please don't help them.

Bruv, don't deflect from my question.

The fight for entertainment dollars argument rings true in Toronto but I'm going to press you to explain what the Bombers and Riders are competing with that would make their attendance drop. The Bombers have Valour FC and not much else.

Hackslack Jul 17, 2019 1:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8634313)
Bruv, don't deflect from my question.

The fight for entertainment dollars argument rings true in Toronto but I'm going to press you to explain what the Bombers and Riders are competing with that would make their attendance drop. The Bombers have Valour FC and not much else.

2 months worth of nice weather per year, especially after a long cold winter on the prairies.

TorontoDrew Jul 17, 2019 3:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 8633604)
Saputo stadium is what the locals would call "broche à foin ". It could really use an upgrade.


Is Saputo that crappy cheese company? It's always on sale and is such horrible quality.


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