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JHikka Nov 2, 2022 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779286)
I'll take that hit every day. I'm a huge CFL fan and while I understand Canadians preferring NFL over the domestic league, I really bristle at the folks who loudly proclaim they want to see the end of the CFL for some reason.

Nobody is doing that in this thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779286)
I'm of the opinion that there is a lack of pride in Canada when it comes to our sports and culture (even the NHL is now a US based entity) and we'd have a much more vibrant country if we'd put more effort into our own entities vice being a lost entity within the US behemoth.

The NHL has been an American entity for a long time. That isn't new.

Either way, Canadian MLS teams won't be joining CPL any time soon. There's no economic or viable reasoning for them to do so. They serve a purpose in the Canadian and American pyramids and judging by the results of CMNT, the makeup of its roster, and CPL in general i'd say that contribution continues to be positive.

VANRIDERFAN Nov 2, 2022 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9779294)
Nobody is doing that in this thread?


Not on this thread no. But on Sports SM sites the vitriol that comes from Canadian NFL only fans is astonishing. It's like there is this deep seated hatred that the CFL even exists.

esquire Nov 2, 2022 5:27 PM

Would Canadian soccer be better off if the three largest and most influential cities went all in on supporting the premier domestic league instead of the American one? Unquestionably. I mean, this is beyond dispute.

But that said, when those cities got their MLS teams, there was no premier domestic league to speak of. It is understandable that they'd want to hold on to their clubs especially given the disparity in franchise value. But it comes at a cost to the game in general.

I wonder if the thinking may eventually change as the CPL continues to grow. I mean, I get that MLSE wasn't going to get rid of TFC to take a gamble on year one of the CPL. But as the CPL grows, it is possible that the larger cities may embrace it. We have already seen Ottawa come around.

esquire Nov 2, 2022 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779323)
Not on this thread no. But on Sports SM sites the vitriol that comes from Canadian NFL only fans is astonishing. It's like there is this deep seated hatred that the CFL even exists.

People are nuts. I mean, I can appreciate this feeling to some extent coming from Toronto since they might have had an outside shot at a NFL team at some point. But when some guy from, say, Edmonton is ragging on it... well, sorry, but at that point you might as well just admit you don't like football because there will never be anything else there. It's basically the CFL or nothing.

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 5:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779324)
But that said, when those cities got their MLS teams, there was no premier domestic league to speak of. It is understandable that they'd want to hold on to their clubs especially given the disparity in franchise value. But it comes at a cost to the game in general.

I don't think this is the case at all. Canadian MLS teams are able to tap into the resources of their American counterparts at large for the purpose of developing Canadians by way of homegrown talent. Just looking at the number of CMNT members that went through some sort of MLS academy in Canada should be all we need to know about their effectiveness and impact on the sport in Canada at its highest levels. Like you say, this didn't exist before, but I don't know how much the CPL could exist today if the MLS didn't exist in some form prior. A lot of it comes down to building a pyramid and right now CPL provides its spot on the pyramid and MLS provides its spot atop of it. I don't see any issue with a situation where MLS continues growing (its Canadian teams tagging along with that) whilst CPL continues to grow underneath it. It's a win for development in general as the pyramid grows and improves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779324)
I wonder if the thinking may eventually change as the CPL continues to grow. I mean, I get that MLSE wasn't going to get rid of TFC to take a gamble on year one of the CPL. But as the CPL grows, it is possible that the larger cities may embrace it. We have already seen Ottawa come around.

York hasn't had much success in Toronto but with an upcoming relocation i'll be interesting to see how they fair in a more purpose-built facility in Rexdale. Likewise, Langley will be starting up in 2023, so it'll be interesting to see how that team fares in a market that is definitely more MLS-oriented. There was understandably a lot of hesitation on the part of CPL to avoid MLS markets as much as possible and on the whole they've been able to achieve that. I think Forge's success in Hamilton have given them a bit of confidence to poke at the borders of MLS areas to see how much they can have an impact.

blueandgoldguy Nov 2, 2022 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9779174)
People have been saying this for a decade and yet it continues. Its value-to-revenue rate is 10x, more than double the NHL's 5x. It has a bit to catch up to bring that ratio down but the value is inherent in the product and infrastructure.

That's because they have been consistently expanding for a decade plus.:haha:

They had to strike a deal with Apple because cable providers wouldn't give them what they want due to the low TV ratings. They limited their audience to one of the less popular streaming services (less subscribers than Netflix, Amazon, Disney+). I know there is some sort of agreement where traditional TV providers can broadcast games from Apple for a fee but the bottom line is MLS limited their public reach.

Let's see what those valuations are like when the expansion fees dry up. At that point MLS better have some alternative sources to replace that lost revenue.

blueandgoldguy Nov 2, 2022 6:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779323)
Not on this thread no. But on Sports SM sites the vitriol that comes from Canadian NFL only fans is astonishing. It's like there is this deep seated hatred that the CFL even exists.

The CFL's existence is the only reason Toronto doesn't have an NFL team!

Hackslack Nov 2, 2022 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy (Post 9779378)
The CFL's existence is the only reason Toronto doesn't have an NFL team!

That and the $6+ billion required to procure an NFL franchise.

Would love to see what players reaction would be if they had to play in a Toronto live-soft football market.

Acajack Nov 2, 2022 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackslack (Post 9779399)

Would love to see what players reaction would be if they had to play in a Toronto live-soft football market.

Similar to the Raptors' situation I guess, which isn't that bad.

The Blue Jays are different because a larger percentage of MLB players are not American.

While the NBA is more international than the NFL, it's still very US-dominated in terms of players.

Acajack Nov 2, 2022 6:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9779294)


The NHL has been an American entity for a long time. That isn't new.
.

True, though the illusion that it was (more) "ours" was maintained into the 1990s.

elly63 Nov 2, 2022 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN (Post 9779323)
Not on this thread no. But on Sports SM sites the vitriol that comes from Canadian NFL only fans is astonishing. It's like there is this deep seated hatred that the CFL even exists.

Don't kid yourself, it has happened often on this forum from the NFL side (CFL dies and Toronto gets a team) and from TFC (Argos die we get our stadium back) being the motives. The NFL people are obvious about it and the TFC people a little more devious. It has lessened over the years though but was most prominent when the Argos were moving to BMO and their first years there.

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 7:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9779419)
True, though the illusion that it was (more) "ours" was maintained into the 1990s.

The NHL has more or less effectively been run from New York since the Original Six era. Remember that it was Canadian owners that prevented other Canadian teams from entering the league during that period, in particular preventing Vancouver from entering in the 1950s, as well as during the 1967 expansion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy
Let's see what those valuations are like when the expansion fees dry up. At that point MLS better have some alternative sources to replace that lost revenue.

If they're anything like the rest of the US major sports league they'll continue to rise. Likewise, if growth valuations decline or stall in other major sports leagues they'll do the same as MLS. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Acajack Nov 2, 2022 7:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 9779459)
Don't kid yourself, it has happened often on this forum from the NFL side (CFL dies and Toronto gets a team) and from TFC (Argos die we get our stadium back) being the motives. The NFL people are obvious about it and the TFC people a little more devious. It has lessened over the years though but was most prominent when the Argos were moving to BMO and their first years there.

The hate that some people have for the CFL borders on the pathological.

I can understand not being interested or even not liking it, but the lengths that some people will go to to demean it just boggles my mind.

I think that I've mentioned before that I've witnessed in person anti-CFL pro-NFL "protestors" at the Grey Cup who were haranguing the fans who were walking in the stadium for the game.

esquire Nov 2, 2022 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 9779333)
I don't think this is the case at all. Canadian MLS teams are able to tap into the resources of their American counterparts at large for the purpose of developing Canadians by way of homegrown talent. Just looking at the number of CMNT members that went through some sort of MLS academy in Canada should be all we need to know about their effectiveness and impact on the sport in Canada at its highest levels. Like you say, this didn't exist before, but I don't know how much the CPL could exist today if the MLS didn't exist in some form prior. A lot of it comes down to building a pyramid and right now CPL provides its spot on the pyramid and MLS provides its spot atop of it. I don't see any issue with a situation where MLS continues growing (its Canadian teams tagging along with that) whilst CPL continues to grow underneath it. It's a win for development in general as the pyramid grows and improves.

That's a fair comment. To some extent, MLS proved that soccer could prosper in Canada and paved the way for the CPL. But I wouldn't say that the current model is the best one going forward.

Not having the three largest cities in the country fully engaged with the biggest domestic league will limit the ceiling for the CPL and hinder its potential as a development tool.

I mean, I realize Canada is playing the hand that it was dealt, but I doubt anyone would hold up the current model as an example of how to do it. The best you can say for it is that it kinda works. And maybe that's good enough, but it's certainly not ideal.

esquire Nov 2, 2022 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9779491)
I think that I've mentioned before that I've witnessed in person anti-CFL pro-NFL "protestors" at the Grey Cup who were haranguing the fans who were walking in the stadium for the game.

:haha:

Yeah wow, that is something.

JHikka Nov 2, 2022 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779496)
That's a fair comment. To some extent, MLS proved that soccer could prosper in Canada and paved the way for the CPL. But I wouldn't say that the current model is the best one going forward.

Not having the three largest cities in the country fully engaged with the biggest domestic league will limit the ceiling for the CPL and hinder its potential as a development tool.

I think we'll steadily see CPL seep its way into our current MLS markets in due time. York was the first attempt, Langley will be the second, and it seems like Laval may eventually be the third. There's room in these markets for multiple teams, it's just a matter of finding the niche and consumers for both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9779496)
I mean, I realize Canada is playing the hand that it was dealt, but I doubt anyone would hold up the current model as an example of how to do it. The best you can say for it is that it kinda works. And maybe that's good enough, but it's certainly not ideal.

It's working for the moment but we'll need another year or so to really gauge how things are panning out. At one end of the table there are teams like Edmonton and York which haven't panned out at all, and at the other end there are teams like Halifax and Pacific which have absolutely worked out for the better. Between that are teams like Forge, Cavalry, and increasingly Atletico who are able to build strong teams, develop players, and then move them on to higher levels of play, including MLS, for increasingly lucrative amounts.

I have no doubt that CPL will work its way into our largest cities eventually, but it would have been foolish to try and go up against MLS right out of the gate, and IMO they were correct in avoiding that conflict. Their strongest markets are medium-sized where there was no football competition at all, so it was easy to make an impact and an imprint. Langley is going to be a big test because it's the outskirts of an MLS market which has been mishandled by MLS ownership and which is rife with supporters looking for alternative options. If Langley works then it's a green light for further GTA and Montreal franchises.

WhipperSnapper Nov 2, 2022 7:31 PM

The NFL Toronto people are a minority and yet they get all the attention from CFL fans. Toronto likes betting on games but, it's not a football market. An NFL team in Toronto really doesn't do much for the betting line either. Toronto would have an NFL team if the base was there. The CFL isn't a factor. It's a convenient excuse

elly63 Nov 2, 2022 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9779491)
The hate that some people have for the CFL borders on the pathological.

I can understand not being interested or even not liking it, but the lengths that some people will go to to demean it just boggles my mind.

I think that I've mentioned before that I've witnessed in person anti-CFL pro-NFL "protestors" at the Grey Cup who were haranguing the fans who were walking in the stadium for the game.

Totally agree, I get being a fan of another sport but to go out of your way to try and kill one of the few Canadian leagues treads into the territory of scumbaggery. If it is as bad as they tell us it will die on its own but haters have been telling us that since the 80s and the old girl is still around. Also the quality of the football is far closer to the NFL than many soccer leagues are to the EPL et al.

Berklon Nov 2, 2022 7:38 PM

The topic went from League/team valuations to Toronto/NFL bashing pretty quickly. :haha:

EpicPonyTime Nov 4, 2022 2:39 AM

WhipperSnapper's got the right idea. Toronto doesn't have an NFL team because the city cannot support one, and that's basically it. Saying it's because of the CFL is like saying you don't have a Tesla because you have a 1993 Corolla.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 9779532)
The topic went from League/team valuations to Toronto/NFL bashing pretty quickly. :haha:

First time here? :haha:


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