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Bigtime Jan 13, 2012 4:33 PM

Cranes signal big growth at Calgary airport

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...310/story.html

isaidso Jan 13, 2012 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbt (Post 5548623)
Don't forget to add another 1.25M for the City Centre airport as those trips used to be from Pearson a few years ago: 5.97.

Halifax beats both of those Ontario airports. Halifax would be up past 8 passengers/Haligonian. ;)

Symz Jan 13, 2012 9:12 PM

Windsor Airport (YQG) is adding a large hangar. The hangar is for a new maintenance, repair and overhaul operation of large jets that will be run by a company from Quebec, Premier Aviation Overhaul Centre Inc.. The company has 2 other locations, 1 in Trois Rivières, Quebec and 1 in Rome, New York.

The hangar will be able to accepts jets as large as Boeing 777, 747 or Airbus A-330 with a clearance of 64 ft.

http://www.windsorstar.com/5616673.bin?size=620x400s
http://www.windsorstar.com/5616676.bin?size=620x400s
http://windsorite.ca/wp-content/uplo...24-600x400.jpg

vid Jan 14, 2012 1:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbt (Post 5548623)
Don't forget to add another 1.25M for the City Centre airport as those trips used to be from Pearson a few years ago: 5.97.

Why can't you just let me enjoy what little I have? :(

Still, for a city the size of Thunder Bay to have such a busy airport is impressive, notwithstanding our location as the hub of a region that depends on air travel to go anywhere.

Symz Jan 14, 2012 1:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid (Post 5549491)
Why can't you just let me enjoy what little I have? :(

Still, for a city the size of Thunder Bay to have such a busy airport is impressive, notwithstanding our location as the hub of a region that depends on air travel to go anywhere.

Honestly Vid I am impressed by what you have shown of Thunder Bay. I didn't know much about it other than it had a mountain that looked like a giant laying down and sleeping but you've opened my eyes a little :)

Want to hear something funny? My new family doctor is from Thunder Bay and he once told me he takes pictures of Detroit and posts them on his facebook to give the illusion to people back home that he lives in a big city (even though he lives in Windsor).

He said this jokingly ofcourse, but then again I don't know him all that well yet.

vid Jan 14, 2012 1:58 AM

That's funny, my family doctor is from Scotland. I don't actually know of any family doctors who were born in this city. Most new ones are from India and Africa.

taal Jan 14, 2012 5:35 AM

I never got something about YYZ (i.e. Toronto).

Compared to just about every other Airport I've visited ... in Canada and America, it must have the least amount of retail !

Most other airports have a lot of normal retail chains, YYZ has just about none! Only the indepdent stuff they control (less Tims and a few others).

What's up with that ??

I'm comparing to similarly sized airports in the states, they likely have 10X amount of retail.

SpongeG Jan 14, 2012 8:13 AM

love it - sort of got that futuristic/retro jetsons vibe to it :)

isaidso Jan 14, 2012 2:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5549743)
I never got something about YYZ (i.e. Toronto).

Compared to just about every other Airport I've visited ... in Canada and America, it must have the least amount of retail !

Most other airports have a lot of normal retail chains, YYZ has just about none! Only the indepdent stuff they control (less Tims and a few others).

What's up with that ??

I'm comparing to similarly sized airports in the states, they likely have 10X amount of retail.

Lack of things to do and terrible signage are Pearson's 2 biggest failures. I'm always astonished at the dearth of options when waiting for your plane. Even Reykjavik airport in Iceland has more in it. Pearson is an empty hull and extremely boring.

Andrewjm3D Jan 14, 2012 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 5549918)
Lack of things to do and terrible signage are Pearson's 2 biggest failures. I'm always astonished at the dearth of options when waiting for your plane. Even Reykjavik airport in Iceland has more in it. Pearson is an empty hull and extremely boring.


Agreed, even though Pearson has the most modern open and airy design there is a real lack of things to do while you wait for your plane inside. Even some greenery would be nice, every time I pass through there I feel like I'm in an empty art gallery. The architecture is beautiful though.

isaidso Jan 14, 2012 7:15 PM

Hopefully, Pearson's amenities and interior will evolve over time. I even struggled to find a nice spot to read my paper. Some airline/travel inspired installation would be nice, a mural showcasing Canadian attractions/inventions, a tourist centre, an aviation museum, photo gallery of Toronto festivals/cultural events, etc.

I do like your idea about adding greenery. We're Canada, the most heavily treed nation on earth. Would a few nods to that be asking too much? Perhaps, a nod to the Canadian Shield as well!

Andrewjm3D Jan 14, 2012 7:34 PM

An indoor forest showcasing maple that is indigenous to our region would be nice. Make it a fake one and make it fall year round. Pipe in the sounds of song birds and loons occasionally and it would be a much more relaxing place.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4017/4...7a2_z.jpg?zz=1

dsim249 Jan 14, 2012 8:23 PM

^ I can't tell if you're being serious...

CanadianCentaur Jan 14, 2012 8:55 PM

Actually, an indoor forest would be really cool for a major Canadian airport like YYZ or YVR to have. This'd be great for people wanting to get away from the hassles of an airport. I've heard that Kuala Lumpur's airport has something like that, only that it's a tropical rainforest habitat.

taal Jan 14, 2012 9:04 PM

I think there's more too it though ... it is as if for some odd reason or another, Pearson didn't want to open up the door to retail ?

I'm curious if anyone knows the story ?

There is no chain retail whatsoever less a couple outlets; Otherwise it's that giant duty free shop.

Some seems odd about it.

isaidso Jan 14, 2012 10:15 PM

Canadian airports tend to have less 'attractions' in them then elsewhere, but there's something very strange about Pearson. It looks almost like they haven't finished building it yet, but it's been done for years.

Andrewjm3D Jan 14, 2012 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsim249 (Post 5550249)
^ I can't tell if you're being serious...

I am.

Anybody who was in Toronto and was able to visit the Chin Lee Crystal the first few weeks it opened may agree with me that Pearson feels like Libskinds addition did without any art in it. Interesting lines but it's lacking stuff to look at and do.

There is no denying though that it is a powerful and modern structure with great attention to detail.

Taken by - seanmcgrath on flickr.com
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2188/2...e12bc917_b.jpg

ACT7 Jan 15, 2012 5:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5550307)
I think there's more too it though ... it is as if for some odd reason or another, Pearson didn't want to open up the door to retail ?

I'm curious if anyone knows the story ?

There is no chain retail whatsoever less a couple outlets; Otherwise it's that giant duty free shop.

Some seems odd about it.

Couldn't agree more! For an airport the size of Pearson with the amount of international traffic, it has an appauling lack of retail. Airports a fraction of the size have way more in terms of food and shopping. Someone REALLY f*%#ed up when handling the retail contracts. Even YVR has a Hermes, Lacoste, and Brooks Brothers with have the traffic and half the international pax traffic - and stagnant growth. Brutal! Hopefully this rebranding that they're doing will lead to some major retail improvements but passing through T1 Hammerhead at Christmas showed no changes from the year before. I've tried asking them what's in the plans but they are very hush-hush about it. Do they not look at other airports around the world!?

ACT7 Jan 15, 2012 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigtime (Post 5548640)
Cranes signal big growth at Calgary airport

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...310/story.html

Too bad the growth isn't there...22 gates is overkill imo.

isaidso Jan 15, 2012 6:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 5551007)
Couldn't agree more! For an airport the size of Pearson with the amount of international traffic, it has an appauling lack of retail. Airports a fraction of the size have way more in terms of food and shopping. Someone REALLY f*%#ed up when handling the retail contracts. Even YVR has a Hermes, Lacoste, and Brooks Brothers with have the traffic and half the international pax traffic - and stagnant growth. Brutal! Hopefully this rebranding that they're doing will lead to some major retail improvements but passing through T1 Hammerhead at Christmas showed no changes from the year before. I've tried asking them what's in the plans but they are very hush-hush about it. Do they not look at other airports around the world!?

A lot has to do with the extreme pragmatic culture that exists in Toronto. More than one Torontonian has asked me why an airport needs retail and things to do. For them it's a place to get from A to B and nothing else. Beauty, entertainment, attractions, art, etc are unnecessary frills.

Many things in Toronto are bare bones to the point where they don't even look finished. Toronto Life Square is another example. They didn't even bother to put ceilings in there. Why would a building need a ceiling?

taal Jan 15, 2012 6:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 5551033)
A lot has to do with the extreme pragmatic culture that exists in Toronto. More than one Torontonian has asked me why an airport needs retail and things to do. For them it's a place to get from A to B and nothing else. Beauty, entertainment, attractions, art, etc are unnecessary frills.

Many things in Toronto are bare bones to the point where they don't even look finished. Toronto Life Square is another example. They didn't even bother to put ceilings in there. Why would a building need a ceiling?

Sorry isaidso, but that's just about one of the silliest thing I've ever heard ...

I live in Toronto, and everyone I know shares a similar sentiment with me regarding YYZ.

Its so silly, that I feel silly spouting a counter example but here goes: The is a ton of new retail planed for the Union expansion (a small mall) ...

ACT7 Jan 15, 2012 6:36 PM

Airport retail drives so much revenue it makes absolutely no sense to me the way Pearson is run sometimes. Pearson should have a friggin' mall in it like other airports its size and status.

Andrewjm3D Jan 15, 2012 6:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 5551033)
A lot has to do with the extreme pragmatic culture that exists in Toronto. More than one Torontonian has asked me why an airport needs retail and things to do. For them it's a place to get from A to B and nothing else. Beauty, entertainment, attractions, art, etc are unnecessary frills.

Many things in Toronto are bare bones to the point where they don't even look finished. Toronto Life Square is another example. They didn't even bother to put ceilings in there. Why would a building need a ceiling?


Well most of that has to do with the fact that we as Torontonians know we have to scream and beg for any reinvestment from the feds to get anything done around here. We either pay for it ourselves like the TTC or take what we can get from the federal level. The rest of Canada hates to see any tax money being spent in Toronto even though the GTA represents over 1/5th of all the tax generated in this country.

If we started demanding more money and better quality the rest of the country would scream bloody murder. It's been that way for the past 30 years and will continue that way until mentalities in this country change. The fact is the rest of the country loves to hate us but loves our money, and any federal government that is seen as Toronto friendly might as well not run in the next election.

With that said, I think we've seen the construction of a very impressive structure with seamless additions making it the most modern airport in the country. It really wouldn't take much to turn it into a more friendly airport to spend a few hours waiting in.

chrisallard5454 Jan 15, 2012 7:02 PM

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...06034317_n.jpg

ACT7 Jan 15, 2012 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D (Post 5551060)
Well most of that has to do with the fact that we as Torontonians know we have to scream and beg for any reinvestment from the feds to get anything done around here. We either pay for it ourselves like the TTC or take what we can get from the federal level. The rest of Canada hates to see any tax money being spent in Toronto even though the GTA represents over 1/5th of all the tax generated in this country.

If we started demanding more money and better quality the rest of the country would scream bloody murder. It's been that way for the past 30 years and will continue that way until mentalities in this country change. The fact is the rest of the country loves to hate us but loves our money, and any federal government that is seen as Toronto friendly might as well not run in the next election.

With that said, I think we've seen the construction of a very impressive structure with seamless additions making it the most modern airport in the country. It really wouldn't take much to turn it into a more friendly airport to spend a few hours waiting in.

Totally agree...whereas Americans embrace NYC, the rest of Canada seems to have an unhealthy hatred towards Toronto. So the federal government does play a huge role in how uncompetitive our airports are run, but that being said, the GTAA also needs to take responsibility for how lackluster the retail offering is. It is completely not reflective of what the city itself offers in terms of food or shopping. That Toronto Marketplace HAS to go! Artizan HAS to go! Most of the crappy food, like Red Rocket, HAS to go! Don't even get me started on the transborder pier. I read in a Moodie report that Pearson has the largest designated retail space of any airport in NA. It's most definitely not being used to anywhere near it's full potential.

This article is from 2007. Moodie seems to be seeing something in the retail offering that I am missing...

http://www.moodiereport.com/pdf/tmr_apr07_13.pdf

taal Jan 16, 2012 12:43 AM

Quote:

I read in a Moodie report that Pearson has the largest designated retail space of any airport in NA.
Huh ? That makes no sense whatsoever ! I just came back from Newark, O'hare, washtinon ... each one of them must have had at least 10X are much retail, and I'm not exaggerating.

Now I'm only referring to terminal 1 here.

As funny as it is I find terminal 3, while dismal, has more retail !

Andrewjm3D Jan 16, 2012 2:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5551468)
Huh ? That makes no sense whatsoever ! I just came back from Newark, O'hare, washtinon ... each one of them must have had at least 10X are much retail, and I'm not exaggerating.

Now I'm only referring to terminal 1 here.

As funny as it is I find terminal 3, while dismal, has more retail !

He said space, as in designated sqaure footage for retail. It's just not being used for that yet.

jmt18325 Jan 16, 2012 2:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 5551284)
Totally agree...whereas Americans embrace NYC, the rest of Canada seems to have an unhealthy hatred towards Toronto.

I don't think that you have enough exposure to American conservative media if you think that almost all Americans embrace NY.

SpongeG Jan 16, 2012 2:32 AM

plans/info for YVR upgrades and expansion etc.

http://www.bccr.net/images/nov2011/P...ion-Nov_24.pdf

ACT7 Jan 16, 2012 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5551468)
Huh ? That makes no sense whatsoever ! I just came back from Newark, O'hare, washtinon ... each one of them must have had at least 10X are much retail, and I'm not exaggerating.

Now I'm only referring to terminal 1 here.

As funny as it is I find terminal 3, while dismal, has more retail !

I know, it seems ridiculous. Yes, it was that the space is designated as retail, but it's definitely not being used that way. Either way, it's terrible. And yes, sad as it is, T3 is better than T1 for retail...landside anyway, with their crappy mini-mall.

Here is the link to that report...

http://www.taxfreetravel.com/Toronto%20Pearson

Sorry, it wasn't a Moodie report.

ACT7 Jan 16, 2012 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325 (Post 5551596)
I don't think that you have enough exposure to American conservative media if you think that almost all Americans embrace NY.

In general, I would say that is true, just anecdotally and pure obsevation having travelled around the U.S. But, true, American conservative media may not think that way...nor should they be the measuring stick of how Americans think.

ACT7 Jan 17, 2012 9:59 PM

Posted in the YYC airport discussion too...

November results are in for YYC, and although overall pax numbers for the month are down, international is way up compared to last November. Still down for the year but it makes me wonder what went on this Nov. to have such a jump. It's not like there was a significant increase in flights or capacity. Almost makes me wonder if it's a typo that will be adjusted.

http://www.yyc.com/data//1/rec_docs/33_BR_PaxTotal.pdf

CanadianCentaur Jan 17, 2012 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 5551008)
Too bad the growth isn't there...22 gates is overkill imo.

If major growth in air traffic returns like it did before 2008, you'll be glad they built that many gates in YYC beforehand! Major world economic crises don't last forever, you know.

ACT7 Jan 18, 2012 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadianCentaur (Post 5553750)
If major growth in air traffic returns like it did before 2008, you'll be glad they built that many gates in YYC beforehand! Major world economic crises don't last forever, you know.

Well considering Pier F at T1 at Pearson has 23 gates and YYZ handles almost 10 times the international traffic that YYC does, imo it's overkill...even though, yes, world crises don't last forever. I'm not saying that an expansion is necessarily a bad idea but this was obviously in the works when growth was double digit. That may happen again in a decade but only for a couple of years again.

rbt Jan 18, 2012 4:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 5553878)
Well considering Pier F at T1 at Pearson has 23 gates and YYZ handles almost 10 times the international traffic that YYC does, imo it's overkill...even though, yes, world crises don't last forever.

Most of Pier F handles very large aircraft. The number gates (number of aircraft) is more related to destination count rather than passenger count.

Those Emerites A480 flights with 800 passengers at YYZ are equivalent to 5 or 6 gates at YCC for 737s and A320s going to sun destinations for the same 800 passengers.

Andrewjm3D Jan 18, 2012 4:50 AM

A380 not A480 :)

eemy Jan 18, 2012 1:07 PM

You also have to remember that a lot of International flight are out of T3 including pretty much all non-Star Alliance airlines (with some exceptions) and vacation charters.

ACT7 Jan 18, 2012 3:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbt (Post 5554078)
Most of Pier F handles very large aircraft. The number gates (number of aircraft) is more related to destination count rather than passenger count.

Those Emerites A480 flights with 800 passengers at YYZ are equivalent to 5 or 6 gates at YCC for 737s and A320s going to sun destinations for the same 800 passengers.

Yes, but even still, destination count, number of aircraft and movements are all substantially higher out of T1 alone than YYC. I don't think anyone would disagree that 22 additional international gates at an airport that handles 1.3 MM international pax (or even 3.7 MM if you include transborder) is overkill. But, hey, maybe the Calgary Airport Authority knows something we don't :)

Andrewjm3D Jan 18, 2012 5:46 PM

If you can build it why not? Better to be ready for the future then to scramble when the time comes. I think it's a smart move by YCC.

YYCguys Jan 19, 2012 4:23 PM

YCC=Cornwall, Ontario, YYC=Calgary, Alberta :)

MolsonExport Jan 19, 2012 5:17 PM

I can see all those A380s circling the air awaiting clearance to land in the teaming metropolis of Cornwall.

davidivivid Jan 19, 2012 6:31 PM

The Quebec City airport's $225M expansion has recently begun. A first $70M expansion occurred in 2007 but the number of passengers increased so quickly that the airport already functions at almost full capacity.

The bulk of the money will be funnelled towards the expansion of the international terminal (it will be 4 times larger), which will basically double the size of the airport. However, the construction of this terminal will occur only in 2014. This year, a multi-level parking lot will be built, followed by the construction of a new hotel in 2013. Obviously, through all of this, the service facilities for passengers and airline companies will also be improved.

Detailed renderings of the new terminal haven't surfaced yet so the only picture I could find is the following one. From what I can see, the new international terminal will look like a bigger version of the beautiful terminal added in 2007:

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_r...7&t=1325850717
http://argent.canoe.ca/lca/affaires/...06-064859.html

Here's what the airport looks at the moment. The new terminal would be on the left end side in the following picture and would most likely look like a bigger version of the terminal on the right end side.

http://www.praa.qc.ca/includes/templ...esage_0441.jpg
http://www.praa.qc.ca/fr/projets/tra...an-lesage.html

http://www.praa.qc.ca/includes/templ...esage_0427.jpg
http://www.praa.qc.ca/fr/projets/tra...an-lesage.html

http://images.lpcdn.ca/924x615/20111...e-aeroport.jpg
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/...-laeroport.php

MTLskyline Jan 20, 2012 3:28 AM

Quebec City has to have one of Canada's nicest airports.

isaidso Jan 20, 2012 9:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5551037)
I live in Toronto, and everyone I know shares a similar sentiment with me regarding YYZ.

I argued that the culture of Toronto is reflected in the buildings it constructs. It's no shock that most Torontonians consider the amenities at Pearson to be sufficient. You've basically made my case for me. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D (Post 5551060)
Well most of that has to do with the fact that we as Torontonians know we have to scream and beg for any reinvestment from the feds to get anything done around here. We either pay for it ourselves like the TTC or take what we can get from the federal level. The rest of Canada hates to see any tax money being spent in Toronto even though the GTA represents over 1/5th of all the tax generated in this country.

If we started demanding more money and better quality the rest of the country would scream bloody murder. It's been that way for the past 30 years and will continue that way until mentalities in this country change. The fact is the rest of the country loves to hate us but loves our money, and any federal government that is seen as Toronto friendly might as well not run in the next election.

With that said, I think we've seen the construction of a very impressive structure with seamless additions making it the most modern airport in the country. It really wouldn't take much to turn it into a more friendly airport to spend a few hours waiting in.

There's certainly a huge disjoint between the needs of Canadian municipalities and the tax generating ability of municipalities, but that's something all cities in Canada have to contend with.

Pearson's bones are very good so I'm hopeful that it will evolve over time like you said. That said, it still startles me sometimes how bare bones some Toronto buildings are. Pearson and Toronto Life (at Dundas Square) are the most noticeable examples. Pearson will be great some day, that other building is almost unsalvageable.

Andrewjm3D Jan 20, 2012 9:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 5557785)
I argued that the culture of Toronto is reflected in the buildings it constructs. It's no shock that most Torontonians consider the amenities at Pearson to be sufficient. You've basically made my case for me. ;)


You're right but there is a reason for that. We don't see the investments from the federal level on an equal footing with other cities. If we got to keep even 10% more of what is taken out of the GTA in taxes we'd have much better public spaces and amenities. If we want something done right we have to fight for years and years, and then when we get it expect it to take just as long to come into place. Union Station is a prime example. When Toronto does getting any sort of federal investments the rest of the country moans. We could just as easily argue that it's not the culture of Torontonians that are reflected in our bare bones public spaces, it's what the rest of Canada wants for us. Still to this day I don't understand the love of loathing this city from the rest of the country. We love you guys.

People do want nice things here as can be found in privately funded buildings.

WhipperSnapper Jan 20, 2012 9:51 PM

I don't know a single soul who travels through Person that finds the amenities adequate. I'm glad that at least urbanized Toronto is largely bucking the trend for cheap inspired historicism. If the lack of a tacky crown unnecessary twists, turns, and curves and supertall status is conservative than so be it.

Andrewjm3D Jan 20, 2012 9:56 PM

I will say this about Pearson, flying into it is one of the better airport experiences to be had. Fast efficient, good signage, and always more then enough custom agents on hand to process everybody fast and get them on their way. They seem to have getting passengers and their baggage out the door down to a fine art now.

ACT7 Jan 21, 2012 4:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D (Post 5557866)
I will say this about Pearson, flying into it is one of the better airport experiences to be had. Fast efficient, good signage, and always more then enough custom agents on hand to process everybody fast and get them on their way. They seem to have getting passengers and their baggage out the door down to a fine art now.

That part is true - I generally fly through customs (well at T1 anyway; T3 is a bit slower since it's a bit smaller). While Pearson is certainly utilitarian and efficient, it lacks all the major retail that main hubs around the world have, and even airports a fraction of its size have. It has bush league retail at best and seems no one did any market research whatsoever with respect to who travels through the airport. Here's hoping that the rebranding will lead to MAJOR retail improvements!

isaidso Jan 21, 2012 9:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D (Post 5557812)
You're right but there is a reason for that. We don't see the investments from the federal level on an equal footing with other cities.

But we see it in privately funded buildings as well. When a developer proposes something extravagant, locals complain that it's too showy, a 'look at me building', or just stroking someone's delicate ego. Why can't we once in a while build a showpiece for the sake of wanting something 'top shelf' and gorgeous? A large proportion of Toronto is completely uncomfortable with any outward displays of luxury or opulence. I've always found this reaction plain bizarre.

LeftCoaster Jan 26, 2012 4:16 PM

Very cool video posted by Officedweller in the Vancouver local showing terminal expansion at YVR over the years. INcredible the amount of change that has happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller (Post 5564082)



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