SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

esquire Nov 1, 2021 3:22 PM

...

Calfan12 Nov 1, 2021 3:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9439327)
And work on what the US Customs people did to pass the time with no flights day after day? Did they get reassigned to other airports?

Yes US Customs officers do get reassigned to work other other airports/ ports of entry (POE) if needed & more of them work at Canada’s busiest airports Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and Calgary!

That’s why Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal & Calgary usually handle most of the US flights✈️/US passengers passing through Canada airports every year✅!

casper Nov 1, 2021 5:01 PM

For those who like photos of aircraft, Viking has a pin up calendar.

https://www.vikingair.com/2021-calendar

Unlike auto makes they are not using models to highlight their aircraft.

thenoflyzone Nov 1, 2021 7:09 PM

TS seems to have reactivated at least 1 A330 for the winter season. Good to see and hopefully more to come. Haven't seen one of their widebodies on revenue service in a while.

A few proving runs to YQB the last couple of days and then off to PUJ today.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gtsr

JakeLRS Nov 2, 2021 12:09 AM

Flair now has 24/7 customer service.

I really wonder how they're paying all their staff with meh loads

thenoflyzone Nov 2, 2021 12:41 AM

Maybe for them, 24/7 means 24 days a month, 7hrs per day…:haha:

Calfan12 Nov 2, 2021 8:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9403525)
Calgary YYC Airport ✈️ August 2021 Passengers Stats are out.

Domestic : 871,072 (143.4%) - YTD 2,727,259 -15.69%
Transborder : 52,710 (479.9%) - YTD 171,039 -77.00%
International : 30,783 (554.1%) -YTD 84,365 -82.07%

August 2021 total- 954,565 (156.8%)
YTD- 2,982,663 (-32.96%)

https://www.yyc.com/Portals/0/br_paxtotal_Sep2021.pdf

Of note looks like YYC adjusted its total passengers stats for August 2021 to 957,231 (157.6%) with only the domestic stats changing to 873,738 (144.2%).

Calfan12 Nov 2, 2021 8:22 AM

September 2021 Calgary Airport ✈️ Passengers stats are out.

Domestic : 703,604 (126.4%) YTD 3,433,529 -3.16%
Transborder : 68,088 (623.3%) YTD 239,127 -68.25%
International : 43,012 (606.7%) YTD 127,377 -73.28%

September total - 814,704 (149.7%)
YTD -3,800,033 (-20.43%)

https://www.yyc.com/Portals/0/br_paxtotal_Oct2021.pdf

hollywoodcory Nov 2, 2021 3:11 PM

Effective November 30, Transport Canada will again allow international flights at regional airports

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-c...r-flights.html

YYT
YHM
YKF
YQR
YXE
YXX
YLW
YYJ

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 3:46 PM

AC's Q3 2021 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...800113634.html

Of note on the aircraft delivery front:

Quote:

In the third quarter of 2021, Air Canada elected to proceed with the purchase of an additional two Airbus A220-300 aircraft for delivery in 2024. These two aircraft are part of the 12 Airbus A220-300 aircraft that Air Canada had previously determined it would not be purchasing under an amendment to the purchase agreement concluded with Airbus Canada Limited Partnership in November 2020. Subsequently, in October 2021, Air Canada reached an agreement with Boeing to accelerate the delivery of four Boeing 737 MAX aircraft into the fourth quarter of 2021, for a total of seven deliveries in 2021. The remaining nine Boeing 737 MAX aircraft are now expected to be delivered by the end of the second quarter of 2022, reaching a total of forty Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in the narrow-body fleet.
Load factor grew in Q3 2021 to 71.2% from 42.3% = +28.9%
Load factor YTD in 2021 is 59.2% vs 65.6% YTD 2020 = -6.5% - but that included Jan/Feb 1/2 half of March 2020 that were in the pre-pandemic norm mid-80s.

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 3:51 PM

ADM Q3 results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...869173264.html

Quote:

Passenger volume at YUL totalled 1.9 million passengers during the third quarter of 2021, an increase of 216.6% compared with the same period in 2020 and a decrease of 68.0% compared with 2019. For the nine months ended September 30, 2021, passenger traffic was 2.8 million passengers, down 41.5% from the same period in 2020 and down 81.9% from the same period in 2019.

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 3:54 PM

.

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 3:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9440430)
Effective November 30, Transport Canada will again allow international flights at regional airports

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-c...r-flights.html

YYT
YHM
YKF
YQR
YXE
YXX
YLW
YYJ

So that leaves for now (off the top of my head) the following sun route airports still without the green light: YDF, YQX, YYG, YQM, YSJ, YFC, YBG, YXU, YQG, YYB, YSB, YAM & YQT.

Also YXY, but international service there is summer seasonal and I don't know if it's loaded for summer 2022 or not.

kwoldtimer Nov 2, 2021 5:59 PM

I'm a bit surprised that YKF is on the list and not YXU. :shrug:

thewave46 Nov 2, 2021 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9440476)
Of note on the aircraft delivery front:

I imagine getting better delivery slots from Boeing isn't much of a challenge these days. While the A220's future seems certain at Air Canada - it's a really well-sized aircraft for them - I'm still curious how long they stick with the 737 MAX. I could see them using it for a decade or so and then testing the water for a new fleet of narrowbody aircraft when their younger A320s/321s come due for replacement.

They're actually sitting quite pretty these days as much as they can in the post-COVID airline world. They're operating fleets of popular aircraft, so they've plenty of experience and leverage when coming due for replacement. If the 737 MAX fiasco taught airlines something, it is that being dependent on exclusively one type of aircraft can be exceptionally risky.

Admittedly, it does bode kind of well for AC that growth has ramped up somewhat more slowly than in the US. Several airlines there have had rather spectacular meltdowns there as they've tried to expand beyond what they could deliver in a short time frame.

thenoflyzone Nov 2, 2021 7:28 PM

Also in the Q3 earnings call from Air Canada.

The B763 full freighter conversions will number 8. I kept reading 7 in previous press releases.

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 8:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9440723)
Also in the Q3 earnings call from Air Canada.

The B763 full freighter conversions will number 8. I kept reading 7 in previous press releases.

I read it was upped to 8 in an AC Cargo presser a few weeks ago. That exactly matches the legacy DC-8-70F fleet.

Dominion301 Nov 2, 2021 8:18 PM

Monday night an Air Tindi DHT flying YZF-YFS ran out of fuel 10km short of the diversion airport Fort Providence. No injuries to the 2 crew and 3 pax but no word on the condition of the aircraft itself.

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/insuff...gency-landing/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...ding-1.6233619

https://www.therecord.com/ts/news/ca...y-landing.html

whatnext Nov 2, 2021 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9440045)
Flair now has 24/7 customer service.

I really wonder how they're paying all their staff with meh loads

For some reason I read that as "meth loads"! :haha:

Since Flair is private, anyone know what the actual ownership structure is? I wonder how long they can sustain losses.

hehehe Nov 2, 2021 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9440832)
For some reason I read that as "meth loads"! :haha:

Since Flair is private, anyone know what the actual ownership structure is? I wonder how long they can sustain losses.

Considering their largest shareholder is suing them and they have 18% interest on a 140 million dollar loan it isn't looking too good...

thenoflyzone Nov 3, 2021 1:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9440761)
I read it was upped to 8 in an AC Cargo presser a few weeks ago. That exactly matches the legacy DC-8-70F fleet.

I guess I missed that one.

On another note, AC has suspended more than 800 employees without pay due to non compliance with their vaccine mandate. Total employee count is 27,000 for them, so a vaccination rate of over 96%.

The number of suspensions is 300 out of 7,300 employees for Westjet, and 18 (mostly flight attendants) out of 2000 employees for Transat.

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpre...inst-covid-19/

thewave46 Nov 3, 2021 2:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9440761)
I read it was upped to 8 in an AC Cargo presser a few weeks ago. That exactly matches the legacy DC-8-70F fleet.

It seems like the 767-300ER is quite the popular freight hauler - it seems like every one is scooped up for freight conversions. Lucky for AC they still had some decent ones in-house.

It's an interesting choice of destinations - I was expecting more China/Asia. Maybe the 767 doesn't have the legs for those destinations?

thenoflyzone Nov 3, 2021 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9441044)
It seems like the 767-300ER is quite the popular freight hauler - it seems like every one is scooped up for freight conversions. Lucky for AC they still had some decent ones in-house.

It's an interesting choice of destinations - I was expecting more China/Asia. Maybe the 767 doesn't have the legs for those destinations?

It's not the ideal frame for cargo runs from Canada to Asia and back, no.
Range is only ~6,000-6,400 km at max payload.

Compare that to the B77F which has a 9,200 km range at max payload. Mind you it's still tight for a lot of Asia-North America routes. This is why ANC is heavily used as a cargo stop over point for flights between the two continents.

This being said, I've seen Cargojet send their 767s to Asia from YVR when the pandemic hit. Probably mostly for PPE and such, so light loads, and nowhere near max payload.

casper Nov 3, 2021 3:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9441010)
I guess I missed that one.

On another note, AC has suspended more than 800 employees without pay due to non compliance with their vaccine mandate. Total employee count is 27,000 for them, so a vaccination rate of over 96%.

The number of suspensions is 300 out of 7,300 employees for Westjet, and 18 (mostly flight attendants) out of 2000 employees for Transat.

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpre...inst-covid-19/

That is a positive move. Good to see the airlines being part of the solution as the country moves to a more normal state of activity. I am now far more confident flying in one of these pressurized tubes with a 100 of my not-so close friends.

Dominion301 Nov 3, 2021 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9441074)
That is a positive move. Good to see the airlines being part of the solution as the country moves to a more normal state of activity. I am now far more confident flying in one of these pressurized tubes with a 100 of my not-so close friends.

I will be once 90% of children in the 5-12 age category have been double vaxxed.

Innsertnamehere Nov 3, 2021 1:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9441150)
I will be once 90% of children in the 5-12 age category have been double vaxxed.

I imagine the vaccine mandate will extend to eligible children for travel once they have been given a reasonable timeframe to get vaccinated as well.

thenoflyzone Nov 3, 2021 9:36 PM

DL resuming mainline service to YUL this weekend. 2x daily B717 service from ATL for the winter season.

Same thing for YYZ, only it's 3x daily B717 service to ATL.

thenoflyzone Nov 4, 2021 12:48 AM

Peak summer 2022, Air France will fly to YUL 4x daily.

3x daily A359 and 1x daily 472-seater B77W.

That's 1,444 seats a day on AF alone. Now add AC, TS and SS (the latter now bookable as of next June), and that's quite the number of seats to Paris every day.

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/s...60714396291079

A few weeks ago AF also loaded 3x daily flights from December 15, 2021 to January 9, 2022. So demand to/from Europe is bouncing back quite nicely.

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/s...06967858663425

Dominion301 Nov 4, 2021 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9440776)
Monday night an Air Tindi DHT flying YZF-YFS ran out of fuel 10km short of the diversion airport Fort Providence. No injuries to the 2 crew and 3 pax but no word on the condition of the aircraft itself.

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/insuff...gency-landing/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...ding-1.6233619

https://www.therecord.com/ts/news/ca...y-landing.html

Some new info about the Air Tindi Twin Otter: http://avherald.com/h?article=4ef9b3e0&opt=0

CBC now has a pic: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...ence-1.6234900

https://i.cbc.ca/1.6236226.163597527...rovidence.jpeg

Aircraft went down in a swamp, which they're lucky there was a clearing. Given the ruggedness of a DHT, I wouldn't be surprised if there's minimal damage, the aircraft gets repaired and returned to service in a few months. The pic seems to indicate that.

Calfan12 Nov 5, 2021 12:44 AM

WestJet started up the new Calgary Canada- Seattle US flight ✈️ route today November 4 and in the article it mention WestJet 1st flight to had a total of 69 passengers to Seattle on WS3612.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/ca.trave...e-pandemic.amp

Also same day Alaska Airlines resume its YYC- SEA flights too that have been suspended since late March 2020 due to pandemic.

Calfan12 Nov 5, 2021 9:05 AM

In the Global Calgary news article about the Calgary (YYC) - Seattle flights ✈️ starting up & it mentions WestJet will re-evaluate *if* there is demand or need for 737 or 737 Max to operate it eventually at point, like -possibly during Summer 2022. Will see

“The route is currently being served by a 78-seat De Havilland Dash 8-400, but WestJet said it will re-evaluate the route based on demand to find out whether it would be better served by the larger Boeing 737 or 737 MAX”.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...op-flight/amp/

casper Nov 6, 2021 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9443070)
In the Global Calgary news article about the Calgary (YYC) - Seattle flights ✈️ starting up & it mentions WestJet will re-evaluate *if* there is demand or need for 737 or 737 Max to operate it eventually at point, like -possibly during Summer 2022. Will see

“The route is currently being served by a 78-seat De Havilland Dash 8-400, but WestJet said it will re-evaluate the route based on demand to find out whether it would be better served by the larger Boeing 737 or 737 MAX”.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...op-flight/amp/

I could easily see it going to a 737. A good number of onward DL connections from SEA.

Dominion301 Nov 6, 2021 3:06 AM

Less than an hour from now, we'll find out Pivot's flight schedules and fares: https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/pivot-a...uary-1.5654387

I think I'll stay up a bit late tonight to find out. :)

Coldrsx Nov 6, 2021 4:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9443768)
I could easily see it going to a 737. A good number of onward DL connections from SEA.

The E175 is a much better plane for that route.

Dominion301 Nov 6, 2021 5:31 AM

Well it's after midnight. So without further Adieu, here is Pivot Airlines (aka the relaunched Air Georgian). At the start, the initial YKF-YOW ops are on 19, 21 & 25FEB22 1x each only & YOW-YKF on 21 & 25FEB22 1X each only (I think a return YOW-YKF is missing on 19FEB22). Evidently staring out really slow to get used to independently branded sked ops. Then here's the 28FEB22-20MAR22 sked (NO OPS 09, 17-19MAR22):
ZX 201 D YKF 0830, A YOW 0935 X7
ZX 202 D YOW 1015, A YKF 1125 X6 (no ops 20MAR22)
ZX 203 D YKF 1645, A YOW 1750 X6
ZX 204 D YOW 1830, A YKF 1935 X6

Once YUL starts on 21MAR22 there are triangle flights.

Here's the full schedule once YUL gets underway (Days X67 - NO OPS every 2nd Day 3 & 14&15APR22):
ZX 301 D YKF 0645, A YOW 0750, D YOW 0820, A YUL 0905, D YUL 0940, A YKF 1110
ZX 203 D YKF 1645, A YOW 1750
ZX 204 D YOW 1830, A YKF 1935
ZX 303 D YKF 1955, A YUL 2040, D YUL 2110, A YOW 2155, D YOW 2230, A YKF 2350

Day 6 - NO OPS

DAY 7
ZX 203 D YKF 1645, A YOW 1750
ZX 204 D YOW 1830, A YKF 1935
At this point, they only have flights loaded until 30APR22 and will be operating only a single CR2.

hehehe Nov 6, 2021 11:15 PM

I wonder what will happen to Ethiopian's YYZ-ADD flights as the situation gets worse and rebels inch closer to the capital.

Dominion301 Nov 8, 2021 3:09 PM

The first of PD's seasonal destinations will restart on 17DEC21 to YTM: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...884476883.html

Quote:

In as little as 70 minutes, passengers can fly from Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport to Mont-Tremblant International Airport. Connecting flights are also available from various Porter locations. The winter schedule includes up to four weekly flights.

samuelx88 Nov 8, 2021 3:20 PM

In response to Air Canada new flight, Westjet changed their YQB-YYC flight from 4x weekly to daily and will now start in May instead of July. It's now the same starting date as Air Canada. It now appears to be year round since I don't see any ending date

hollywoodcory Nov 8, 2021 4:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelx88 (Post 9445002)
In response to Air Canada new flight, Westjet changed their YQB-YYC flight from 4x weekly to daily and will now start in May instead of July. It's now the same starting date as Air Canada. It now appears to be year round since I don't see any ending date

Looks like it starts 5x weekly late May, increases to daily for peak summer (late June-Early September) and than back to 4x weekly.

WS hasn't loaded its schedule beyond October 29th/22 yet, so it's probably TBD on year-round.

thenoflyzone Nov 9, 2021 8:27 AM

Airbus is conducting a fello'fly test today from TLS to YUL with 2 A350s.

Airbus 1 (AIB1), an A350-900, and Airbus 2 (AIB2), an A350-1000, are the planes in question. The planes are airborne and have an ETA of around 9h40 am local.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib2

The planes will fly in formation, at very close proximity. It is expected to produce a fuel savings of between 5-10% per trip for the trailing plane. The planes will head back to TLS tomorrow.

Official Airbus site explaining it all.

https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation...micry/fellofly

Coldrsx Nov 9, 2021 4:28 PM

Interesting experience doing MEX-DFW-YYC yesterday.

Much paperwork leaving MEX but very simple customs when we landed at DFW... literally 30 seconds, no questions, no proof asked for, no questions.

YYC many questions and while I had my CANPASS ready, not requested but I did need to 'show a QR' code as I passed someone en route to the customs official.

Lots of process but fairly painless on travel day.

thenoflyzone Nov 9, 2021 10:33 PM

Airbus press release for today's flight.

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...skies-can-save

Quote:

Toulouse/Montreal, 09 November 2021 – Airbus has performed the first long-haul demonstration of formation flight in general air traffic (GAT) regulated transatlantic airspace with two A350 aircraft flying at three kilometers apart from Toulouse, France to Montreal, Canada. The aircraft were greeted at Montreal-Trudeau International Airport. Over 6 tons of CO2 emissions were saved on the trip, confirming the potential for more than a 5% fuel saving on long-haul flights.

The “final demonstration” test flight took place on 9 November 2021 involving two A350 test aircraft, MSN1 and MSN59, the former as the leader aircraft and the latter as the follower. This was made possible with flight control systems developed by Airbus which position the follower aircraft safely in the wake updraft of the leader aircraft allowing it to reduce engine thrust and reduce fuel consumption. A similar principle can be observed with large migrating birds such as geese, which fly together in a distinct V-shaped formation.

Sabine Klauke, Chief Technical Officer at Airbus declared: “This demonstration flight is a concrete example of our commitment to making our decarbonisation roadmap a reality. It also speaks to how collaboration across the industry will be key to making this happen. We have received a strong level of support for this project from our airline and air traffic partners, plus regulators. The opportunity to get this deployed for passenger aircraft around the middle of this decade is very promising. Imagine the potential if fello’fly was deployed across the industry!”

Pilots from Airbus partner airlines SAS Scandinavian Airlines and Frenchbee witnessed the transatlantic flight onboard as observers. The flight was made possible by Airbus and its air traffic management partners and navigation service providers (DSNA, NATS, NAV CANADA, Eurocontrol and IAA), with the support of the DGAC, who together proved that wake energy retrieval flight technology leveraged in a fello’fly flight can be achieved without compromising safety. The demonstration also shows how fello’fly operations could significantly boost environmental performance of commercial aircraft and contribute to the aviation industry’s decarbonisation targets in the immediate term.

The next step is to get the support of the authorities so that this new operational concept can be certified, and ultimately enable airlines to reduce their fuel burn and CO2 emissions.

The Airbus pioneering fello’fly flight was welcomed upon its arrival in Montreal by the Council President and Secretary General of the UN aviation agency, ICAO. Council President Salvatore Sciacchitano said the demonstration represented “an inspiring example of the level of current commitment to reduce aviation emissions,” while ICAO Secretary General Juan Carlos Salazar remarked on how it reflected “the incredible diversity of air transport innovations now being realized to meet the sector’s targets and ensure flying becomes more and more sustainable.”

Launched in 2019, fello’fly is a flight demonstrator project hosted within Airbus UpNext using biomimicry (the design and production of materials, structures and systems inspired by nature). Airbus UpNext is a wholly-owned Airbus subsidiary and part of the Airbus innovation ecosystem, created to give future technologies a development fast-track by building demonstrators at speed and scale, in order to evaluate, mature and validate potential new products and services that encompass radical technological breakthroughs.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9445825)
Airbus is conducting a fello'fly test today from TLS to YUL with 2 A350s.

Airbus 1 (AIB1), an A350-900, and Airbus 2 (AIB2), an A350-1000, are the planes in question. The planes are airborne and have an ETA of around 9h40 am local.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib2

The planes will fly in formation, at very close proximity. It is expected to produce a fuel savings of between 5-10% per trip for the trailing plane. The planes will head back to TLS tomorrow.

Official Airbus site explaining it all.

https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation...micry/fellofly

Wow that's awesome. Were you involved with the YUL arrivals?

One logistical thing to work out is achieving the balance between who leads and who follows (assuming two different airlines) so that one airline doesn't benefit substantially more than another.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 12:34 AM

UA have no timeline for a return to service at YWG: https://winnipegsun.com/news/news-ne...r-now-at-least

Pre-pandemic UA flew YWG-DEN & YWG-ORD.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446731)
Wow that's awesome. Were you involved with the YUL arrivals?

One logistical thing to work out is achieving the balance between who leads and who follows (assuming two different airlines) so that one airline doesn't benefit substantially more than another.

No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.

thewave46 Nov 10, 2021 1:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446750)
No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.

It definitely is a level of coordination that is hard to envision, even within an airline.

You need a number of long-haul flights to coordinate without any logistical problems when dealing with unpredictable passengers and operations. Maybe if it's a series of long-haul flights all headed to a certain destination at the same time - Air Canada's Australia/NZ flights out of Vancouver are bunched all together, or a bunch of AC European destinations leaving Pearson in the European red-eye window.

With TCAS the risk of collision is mitigated, admittedly.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 1:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446750)
No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.

Yeah I was just wondering if they lined them up on the parallels for a simultaneous landing? BA & VS did that yesterday on takeoff at LHR to celebrate the return of being able to visit the USA. Definitely wouldn't want two A350s landing in a V formation on the same runway. :D

As for the separation, according to the Airbus video, the aircraft will still maintain the standard 1,000 feet vertical separation and still reap the benefits. So in that regard, on the same heading and 1.5 nm separation, it's pretty safe.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 1:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446768)

As for the separation, according to the Airbus video, the aircraft will still maintain the standard 1,000 feet vertical separation and still reap the benefits. So in that regard, on the same heading and 1.5 nm separation, it's pretty safe.

No. In the video, they mention that both planes are 1000 ft apart, until a point where they (the 2 aircraft) takeover separation responsibility from ATC. They then move to the same altitude. 1.5 nm apart.

That was the case with the 2 Airbus flights today. AIB1 entered the ocean at FL380. AIB2 was 1000ft below, at FL370, until they hit the first Atlantic waypoint. After that, it climbed to FL380 as well, 1.5 nm behind the other aircraft. Both of the planes crossed the Atlantic at FL380 and then at FL400. They were at the same altitude until east of YQB, where they separated, ATC resumed separation between them and then they descended into YUL.

Maintaining 1,000ft separation won't give you any fuel savings. Wake turbulence dissipates 1,000 ft below an aircraft. Hence why that separation standard is safe for use. Notice how the Airbus video doesn't mention that both planes will fly a the same altitude. There is a risk involved there. Undeniable. You need to maintain a V formation for it to be safe. You can't be immediately behind the leading aircraft. Imagine you're crossing the Atlantic. It's the middle of the night. You're in the trailing aircraft. A young relief pilot (20 odd years old) is sitting in the cockpit, watching over things, While the Captain is taking a nap in the crew rest area. And then the plane starts to drift immediately behind the leading aircraft, at the same altitude, at 1.5 nm separation. I wouldn't want to be in that second plane !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446768)
Yeah I was just wondering if they lined them up on the parallels for a simultaneous landing?

No can do. 06L/24R is closed for most of the day. The asphalt is in bad shape. ADM limits its use. It opens only for the evening arrivals rush, from 4pm to 8 pm. That's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9446767)

With TCAS the risk of collision is mitigated, admittedly.

That's another thing. TCAS will light up like a Christmas tree at 1.5 nm separation, at the same altitude. TCAS will probably need to be turned off for this procedure. One more thing insurance companies wont like.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 4:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446787)
No. In the video, they mention that both planes are 1000 ft apart, until a point where they (the 2 aircraft) takeover separation responsibility from ATC. They then move to the same altitude. 1.5 nm apart.

That was the case with the 2 Airbus flights today. AIB1 entered the ocean at FL380. AIB2 was 1000ft below, at FL370, until they hit the first Atlantic waypoint. After that, it climbed to FL380 as well, 1.5 nm behind the other aircraft. Both of the planes crossed the Atlantic at FL380 and then at FL400. They were at the same altitude until east of YQB, where they separated, ATC resumed separation between them and then they descended into YUL.

Maintaining 1,000ft separation won't give you any fuel savings. Wake turbulence dissipates 1,000 ft below an aircraft. Hence why that separation standard is safe for use. Notice how the Airbus video doesn't mention that both planes will fly a the same altitude. There is a risk involved there. Undeniable. You need to maintain a V formation for it to be safe. You can't be immediately behind the leading aircraft. Imagine you're crossing the Atlantic. It's the middle of the night. You're in the trailing aircraft. A young relief pilot (20 odd years old) is sitting in the cockpit, watching over things, While the Captain is taking a nap in the crew rest area. And then the plane starts to drift immediately behind the leading aircraft, at the same altitude, at 1.5 nm separation. I wouldn't want to be in that second plane !



No can do. 06L/24R is closed for most of the day. The asphalt is in bad shape. ADM limits its use. It opens only for the evening arrivals rush, from 4pm to 8 pm. That's it.



That's another thing. TCAS will light up like a Christmas tree at 1.5 nm separation, at the same altitude. TCAS will probably need to be turned off for this procedure. One more thing insurance companies wont like.

Thanks thenoflyzone for all the explanations. I misread that in the video. :)

Did YUL put the runway rehab on hold due to COVID? Seems like it would have been the golden opportunity to do so, despite the financial challenges.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 1:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446891)
Thanks thenoflyzone for all the explanations. I misread that in the video. :)

Did YUL put the runway rehab on hold due to COVID? Seems like it would have been the golden opportunity to do so, despite the financial challenges.

Yes, resurfacing 24R is on hold. Both thresholds were resurfaced before the pandemic. Only the middle section is left.

I agree that resurfacing the runway when the pandemic hit would have been the best use of idle time, but cash is king, and ADM didn’t have anymore to spare. Don’t forget, the REM project is still ongoing.


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.