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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

isaidso Jan 10, 2018 8:31 PM

Melbourne has a similar population to Montreal and substantially less population within a 2 hour drive. 33,704,854 passengers passed through Melbourne's airport in 2016. It will be between 35 and 36 million in 2017 so double the level of Montreal Trudeau.

begratto Jan 10, 2018 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8042511)
Melbourne has a similar population to Montreal and substantially less population within a 2 hour drive. 33,704,854 passengers passed through Melbourne's airport in 2016. It will be between 35 and 36 million in 2017 so double the level of Montreal Trudeau.

But... to get anywhere, you need to fly out of Melbourne, while from Montreal it's easy to drive to Ottawa (2 hours), Quebec City (2 1/2 hours), Boston (5 hours), Toronto, NYC (6 hours), etc, so there is less of a need to fly. Our main business partners are less than half a day's drive away.

Melbourne is similar to Calgary in this regard so not necessarily a good comparison with Montreal.

Other comparable cities, about the size of Montreal : Berlin sees 21.2M passengers per year, Vienna 22M, Milano 22M, Stockholm 26M

City size is not always proportional to airport passenger traffic. There are lots of other variables at play.

zahav Jan 10, 2018 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 8042483)
I wouldn't say it doesn't represent anything. It most certainly represents something - and something substantial. Growth rates always slow when an airport starts to approach 50 MM pax a year, but to still be adding 3 MM pax a year most definitely represents very strong growth.

Yes of course it is still something good, I didn't mean to undermine that. I just meant when comparing growth figures, you can only use percentage to rank. You can't rank all others on % terms and then mix in absolute numbers

Johnny Aussie Jan 11, 2018 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8042511)
Melbourne has a similar population to Montreal and substantially less population within a 2 hour drive. 33,704,854 passengers passed through Melbourne's airport in 2016. It will be between 35 and 36 million in 2017 so double the level of Montreal Trudeau.

Not to scuttle the Canada thread.... but....

Another reason is the ties between Sydney and Melbourne.

This one route alone generates over 9 million passengers per year. That’s over 25% of Melbourne Airport’s total traffic. In fact OAG recently did a global analysis and MEL-SYD is the second largest air route in the world by number of flights. It’s not uncommon for there to be over 80 flights a day on that one route alone.

In Australia, Melbourne and Sydney are much more evenly matched as business centres. Sydney still edges Melbourne out though. But the sheer volume of business traffic that flows between these two cities is incomparable.

Toronto’s dominance economically in Canada plays a role here. There just isn’t the volume between Toronto and Montreal.

GreaterMontréal Jan 11, 2018 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8043178)
Not to scuttle the Canada thread.... but....

Another reason is the ties between Sydney and Melbourne.

This one route alone generates over 9 million passengers per year. That’s over 25% of Melbourne Airport’s total traffic. In fact OAG recently did a global analysis and MEL-SYD is the second largest air route in the world by number of flights. It’s not uncommon for there to be over 80 flights a day on that one route alone.

In Australia, Melbourne and Sydney are much more evenly matched as business centres. Sydney still edges Melbourne out though. But the sheer volume of business traffic that flows between these two cities is incomparable.

Toronto’s dominance economically in Canada plays a role here. There just isn’t the volume between Toronto and Montreal.

Melbourne to Sydney (900km) by car takes about 10hrs, while Toronto to Montréal (550km), about 5h30hrs

The Montreal to Toronto air route is currently the 15th busiest in the world, with 480 flights per week.

Johnny Aussie Jan 11, 2018 1:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal (Post 8043185)
Melbourne to Sydney (900km) by car takes about 10hrs, while Toronto to Montréal (550km), about 5h30hrs

The Montreal to Toronto air route is currently the 15th busiest in the world, with 480 flights per week.

I'm not disputing the distance factor but the smallest aircraft between MEL and SYD is on 737-8s or 320s. QF flies multiple A330s a day as well. Even if YTZ-YUL were included these are all props as are some even on YYZ-YUL.

I would challenge the 480 flights per week figure because there is no way (with obvious reduced flights on weekends) there are 75 flights per day between YYZ and YUL. I think there's less than 60 per day one way Monday - Friday and that's including YTZ.

YUL's TOTAL domestic last year was about 6.4 million. Again, MEL-SYD just the one route was over 9 million.

Edit: actually I don't even see YUL-YYZ on their list.... certainly not in the the top 20.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Repor...Report2018.pdf

The ties (business and other) between MEL and SYD cannot be underestimated.

begratto Jan 11, 2018 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8043224)
I'm not disputing the distance factor but the smallest aircraft between MEL and SYD is on 737-8s or 320s. QF flies multiple A330s a day as well. Even if YTZ-YUL were included these are all props as are some even on YYZ-YUL.

I would challenge the 480 flights per week figure because there is no way (with obvious reduced flights on weekends) there are 75 flights per day between YYZ and YUL. I think there's less than 60 per day one way Monday - Friday and that's including YTZ.

YUL's TOTAL domestic last year was about 6.4 million. Again, MEL-SYD just the one route was over 9 million.

Edit: actually I don't even see YUL-YYZ on their list.... certainly not in the the top 20.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Repor...Report2018.pdf

The ties (business and other) between MEL and SYD cannot be underestimated.

But how much road traffic is there between Melbourne and Sydney compared to between Montreal and Toronto?
For Melbourne <-> Sydney, this map shows an AADT of 11,218 on the M31 at the marker south of Annie Pyers drive, which seems to be the M31's lowest traffic volume. I couldn't find the data for Victoria.

On highway 401 / Autoroute 20, that link Toronto to Montreal, the AADT at the lowest point is at the border between Quebec and Ontario is 19,600 vehicules per day (source). It's safe to assume that a majority of them go all the way from Montreal to Toronto. On top of this there are 27 buses per day in each direction (busbud) and 7 VIA rail trains each way. I would consider this a good explanation as to why there is less aerial traffic between the two cities.

SkahHigh Jan 11, 2018 2:59 PM

For YUL, it's simply the domestic side of things. Montreal is pretty close to everything major by car, and Quebeckers don't travel as much across Canada as the ROC does, or as they do in the U.S. We've been over this guys.

thenoflyzone Jan 11, 2018 4:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal (Post 8043185)
Melbourne to Sydney (900km) by car takes about 10hrs, while Toronto to Montréal (550km), about 5h30hrs

The Montreal to Toronto air route is currently the 15th busiest in the world, with 480 flights per week.

Had to go to Toronto for a week right after new years. We are a family of 4. Needless to say, I drove. And my annual income is most likely higher than most people on here (not bragging, just making a point). No way i'm paying 1500-2000$ for a trip to Toronto.

That in itself, describes why the domestic numbers at YUL are weak.

Came back 2 days ago. 5h30 drive door to door, that includes 2 stops. Easy peasy !

VIA rail is ok, but not really convenient with young kids. It's also expensive compared to a vehicle (70-80$ each way per person). Between Montreal and Toronto, with a family, nothing beats a car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8043224)
YUL's TOTAL domestic last year was about 6.4 million. Again, MEL-SYD just the one route was over 9 million.

4 million of that is probably solely to/from Toronto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8043224)

The ties (business and other) between MEL and SYD cannot be underestimated.

Neither should the ties between Montreal and Toronto. As I said, most of that traffic, (passenger or cargo) goes by road. The amount of lorries you see on highway 401 between the two cities is ridiculous.

DrNest Jan 11, 2018 4:26 PM

Totally agree on the price point you raise. For the distance travelled, the cost to fly "locally" within Canada is extortionate, and cross-country isn't much better. When I can fly to family in the UK cheaper than family in BC, there's something wrong.

Acajack Jan 11, 2018 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso (Post 8038294)
Apparently there were a lot of very stupid, selfish, callous people on that plane. Insisting on retrieving ones luggage during an emergency evacuation would have caused fatalities if this were a more serious incident.

Word to the wise: Prepare to have me step over you or even ON you if you ever do that in front of me in an emergency situation on a plane.

SaskOttaLoo Jan 12, 2018 3:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8043389)
Had to go to Toronto for a week right after new years. We are a family of 4. Needless to say, I drove. And my annual income is most likely higher than most people on here (not bragging, just making a point). No way i'm paying 1500-2000$ for a trip to Toronto.

That in itself, describes why the domestic numbers at YUL are weak.

Came back 2 days ago. 5h30 drive door to door, that includes 2 stops. Easy peasy !

VIA rail is ok, but not really convenient with young kids. It's also expensive compared to a vehicle (70-80$ each way per person). Between Montreal and Toronto, with a family, nothing beats a car.



4 million of that is probably solely to/from Toronto.



Neither should the ties between Montreal and Toronto. As I said, most of that traffic, (passenger or cargo) goes by road. The amount of lorries you see on highway 401 between the two cities is ridiculous.

In case this thread needs more anecdotal evidence, when I was living in Ottawa, Waterloo and Montreal I would always take Via as my first choice, and renting a car as the second. I probably travelled by train 80% of the time and by car 20%. I didn't consider flying, given the inconvenience of not arriving downtown and all-in cost. I'm sure having kids would change the cost equation, but when I was single and in a relationship that was my own preference.

Johnny Aussie Jan 12, 2018 4:25 AM

Yup more anecdotal evidence. I realise we will all have our opinions.

I also realise the OAG list is airport to airport only so YYZ-YUL would be treated separate from YTZ-YUL. As would AVV-SYD here in Australia.

So again from a business volume sense.... even for a 5 1/2 hour drive each way no (sane) business person would drive between YYZ and YUL for same day business meetings. These people would have to fly and the number of flights and capacity on the route indicates this just cannot be that substantial. The amount of day traffic business between MEL and SYD is so huge that there are flights every 15 minutes at peak morning and late afternoon on both QF and VA and again some of these on large A330s. On some days QF alone has ~ 40 flights per day. YYZ-YUL has about 18 daily on AC and 13 on WS (6 of which on Encore). So maybe around 30 flights per day on aircraft ranging from 75 seats to about 140 seats.

cyeg66 Jan 12, 2018 4:46 AM

:drunk:

TheGreatestX Jan 12, 2018 6:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8044316)
YYZ-YUL has about 18 daily on AC and 13 on WS (6 of which on Encore). So maybe around 30 flights per day on aircraft ranging from 75 seats to about 140 seats.

AC has 20 flights tomorrow from YYZ-YUL, three are on widebody aircraft. They also have an additional 15 flights from YTZ.

GreaterMontréal Jan 12, 2018 6:41 AM

you don't need 2 cities of similar size or strength to have good numbers.

No US cities in the top 10 busiest routes.

The fact is that Australia is even more isolated and urban than Canada. Their top 6 , 15M , out of 23M total in 2016. 65%

our top 6, 17M, out of 36M, +-50%

State of Victoria , 6.4M
Melbourne 4.1M
Geelong 157k

they don't have cities in between like we have in Canada. Geelong is like Trois-Rivières. The traffic between Montréal and Quebec City is important, we don't need to trade with Toronto all the time. Ottawa is just an hour away, New York 6hrs, and Boston 5-6hrs, by car.

Johnny Aussie Jan 12, 2018 6:49 AM

Yup and another difference is the dominance of both Sydney and Melbourne when it comes to commerce in Australia. In Canada the second largest commercial city wouldn’t even come close to Toronto’s dominance. It’s quite a unique relationship in Australia.

Very few countries in the world have the top two so close together.
MEL-SYD is even larger than São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.

The US is far too diverse to have any true dominating city pairs.

As for the volume of flights from YTZ-YUL those are all on aircraft less than 80 seats as well as a lot of the YYZ-YUL flights. I believe some of the widebody flights are international through flights to places like Geneva and Brussels or repositioning for intl ops. I only see 18 flights listed on AC.com regardless.

As for international I would also say in Canada YVR also punches WAY above its weight. YTD through November total international exceeds YUL by over 1,000,000 pax. That gap will most likely widen for total 2017 when December numbers come out. MEL for example will be about 10.35 million for calendar YTD for 2017.

casper Jan 12, 2018 8:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo (Post 8044273)
In case this thread needs more anecdotal evidence, when I was living in Ottawa, Waterloo and Montreal I would always take Via as my first choice, and renting a car as the second. I probably travelled by train 80% of the time and by car 20%. I didn't consider flying, given the inconvenience of not arriving downtown and all-in cost. I'm sure having kids would change the cost equation, but when I was single and in a relationship that was my own preference.

I lived in the Ottawa Valley for a few years (in the 1990s) and use to fly Pem-Air from Pembroke to Toronto fairly regularly. It was expensive. I could never justify it on a personal level. Had no problem justifying it a business expensive given how much cheaper it was vrs the extra labour costs of driving. This is not something new.

That was back in a time when airlines would restrict the cheapest flights to having a Saturday night stay over etc. Today those restrictions are gone on domestic flights.

The airlines has to make a judgment call. Can it make more with a smaller aircraft flying just the passengers willing to pay a premium or does it make more money lowering the prices and having more passengers.

zahav Jan 12, 2018 8:42 AM

YUL-YYZ isn't even Air Canada's busiest route, by passenger traffic it is YYZ-YVR. While some days frequencies might be higher on YUL-YYZ, the aircraft used on YVR-YYZ is much larger and as a result, total pax numbers are higher

thenoflyzone Jan 12, 2018 2:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8044422)

As for international I would also say in Canada YVR also punches WAY above its weight. YTD through November total international exceeds YUL by over 1,000,000 pax.

Due to US numbers only. And again, same reasons. YVR is relatively isolated compared to the major US cities. No choice but to fly if you want to go further than the States of Washington and Oregon. Remove the US, and YVR's international numbers drop by half.

Montrealers are within a 6 hr driving distance of several large US metro areas and a US population basin of over 40 million people.

While I do agree that YVR punches above its weight for international numbers, let's face it, those numbers are mostly concentrated to the US and China. YUL has a more diverse international network.

Acajack Jan 12, 2018 3:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8044422)
Yup and another difference is the dominance of both Sydney and Melbourne when it comes to commerce in Australia. In Canada the second largest commercial city wouldn’t even come close to Toronto’s dominance. It’s quite a unique relationship in Australia.

Very few countries in the world have the top two so close together.
MEL-SYD is even larger than São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.

The US is far too diverse to have any true dominating city pairs.

As for the volume of flights from YTZ-YUL those are all on aircraft less than 80 seats as well as a lot of the YYZ-YUL flights. I believe some of the widebody flights are international through flights to places like Geneva and Brussels or repositioning for intl ops. I only see 18 flights listed on AC.com regardless.

As for international I would also say in Canada YVR also punches WAY above its weight. YTD through November total international exceeds YUL by over 1,000,000 pax. That gap will most likely widen for total 2017 when December numbers come out. MEL for example will be about 10.35 million for calendar YTD for 2017.

It's worth adding to this discussion that in spite of all the ties that have been mentioned, Toronto/Ontario and Montreal/Quebec are more "independent" of each other in economic and other ways than Sydney/New South Wales and Melbourne/Victoria are.

On a lot of fronts Quebec is very self-contained to the point where most Canadian (non-Quebec), U.S. and other foreign companies based in the Toronto area usually have a mini "pseudo-national" office in Montreal to serve the Quebec market.

This means you're probably much less likely to have people flying from Toronto to Montreal and other points in Quebec to meet and serve clients than you are from Sydney to Melbourne or vice-versa.

And as mentioned before a lot of that "servicing" out of Montreal in the southern Quebec region where most of the population lives is done by road (and to a lesser degree by train) as opposed to flying. (The exceptions being more far-flung places like Baie-Comeau, Gaspé, Rouyn-Noranda, etc.)

It's actually not uncommon for large corporations to have a Montreal office headed up by a Senior VP that manages Quebec from A to Z (but subservient to occasional higher-level decision-making in Toronto) and a Toronto office that manages the rest of Canada. In some cases because of this relationship there may be more traffic out of the Toronto office to far-off places like Vancouver and Halifax than there is to Montreal which is only 600 km away. (Though it's true that due to Canada's size some corporations also replicate the regional head office set-up in various regions, but the Quebec vs. rest-of-Canada model is nonetheless extremely prevalent in corporate Canada.)

Johnny Aussie Jan 12, 2018 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8044659)
It's worth adding to this discussion that in spite of all the ties that have been mentioned, Toronto/Ontario and Montreal/Quebec are more "independent" of each other in economic and other ways than Sydney/New South Wales and Melbourne/Victoria are.

Yes, which helps explain the uniqueness of MEL-SYD and why it’s so huge compared to YYZ-YUL.

khabibulin Jan 12, 2018 8:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8043413)
Word to the wise: Prepare to have me step over you or even ON you if you ever do that in front of me in an emergency situation on a plane.

What's that saying...........everybody has a plan until they get a punch in the mouth!;)

Coldrsx Jan 12, 2018 9:44 PM

Impressive.

Edmonton International Airport
Passenger Statistics for December 2017 --

Highlights:
§ Terminal Traffic: 626,377 passengers (7,377,630 Year-total)
Q Domestic 487,934 passengers (6,023,658 Year-total)
Q Transborder 82,221 passengers (879,833Year-total)
Q International 56,222 passengers (474,139 Year-total)

§ FBO Traffic*: 28,408 passengers (429,754 Year-total)

§ Grand Total: Overall 654,785 passengers (7,807,384 Year-total)


Growth%:
§ Terminal: 6.0% (5.0% Year-total)
Q Domestic 6.1% (6.9% Year-total)
Q Transborder 3.0% (-4.0% Year-total)
Q International 9.1% (0% Year-total)

§ FBO Traffic: 7.4% (-13.6% Year-total)

§ Grand Total: Overall 6.0% (3.8% Year-total)

Johnny Aussie Jan 12, 2018 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx (Post 8045379)
Impressive.

Edmonton International Airport
Passenger Statistics for December 2017 --

§ Grand Total: Overall 654,785 passengers (7,807,384 Year-total)

§ Grand Total: Overall 6.0% (3.8% Year-total)

Impressive... but still well below 2015 and 2014 figures.
International and trans border for 2018 will probably get off to a slow start.
The international increase is due to slightly more sun flying. With KLM reducing to twice weekly and Icelandair taking a two month hiatus international will struggle in Jan and Feb. Transborder has been stripped to skeletal levels so even the small boost by AA to PHX will be noticeable. However this will probably be offset by fewer YEG-SEA flights and WestJet looks like they are flying more of the smaller 737-600s trans border ex YEG as well.

thenoflyzone Jan 13, 2018 3:04 PM

Now i agree that MEL-SYD is a larger market than YUL-Toronto, even when you factor in road/train traffic. However, I believe the difference is not that much, everything considered, and I certainly dont buy the business argument that Johnny Aussie is pushing, at least not to the extent that he is pushing it.

For one, for the business minded person on a 1 hour., 1.5 hour flight, frequency is the most important thing, and for that a Q400 is just as good as an A320 or A330.

===========================================================================

Here's a breakdown of the frequency for each city pair for monday, January 15. (these are one way figures)

QF SYD-MEL

29 flights. 24 on B738, 5 on A332

JQ SYD-MEL

13 flights. All on A320/A321

JQ SYD-AVV (avalon airport)

5 flights on A320

(note: Avalon airport (AVV) is the furthest airport to downtown Melbourne, and clearly not what business travellers would take, unlike YTZ which is in downtown Toronto, and where the majority of business travellers destined for Toronto would fly. YTZ, even though it sees no jets, is 3 times busier passenger wise than AVV, btw.

VA has 23 flights from SYD-MEL, all on B738

TT has 10 flights from SYD to MEL, all on A320

So that's a total of 80 flights for SYD-Melbourne, of which only 5 are widebodies. (one of which is the last flight out from SYD at 10 pm. So therefore clearly meant to catch the overflow from possible misconnects) Also of note is that most of these flights are on LCCs. (VA, TT and JQ)

=====================================================================

AC YUL-YYZ on monday Jan 15

19 flights. 1 E175 (departs at 5h30 am, first flight out, restricted in gauge due to curfew for heavier jets til 7am), 16 A320, 2 A333

YUL-YTZ on monday Jan 15

AC 15 flights, all Q400
PD 14 flights, all Q400

WS on YUL-YYZ on jan 15

14 flights, 13 Q400, 1 B737

TS has 1 B738 operating YUL-YYZ on Jan 15.

So overall, YUL-Toronto has 63 flights on monday January 15. Granted, the majority on Q400s, but still an impressive number.

So in terms of frequency, which for a business traveler is key, there is only a 21 % difference in frequency on these city pairs for next monday. Let's not forget that it is peak travel season down under. Not so much here in Canada. Also, a good chunk of those flights in Australia are on low lost carriers. (VA, TT and JQ). That is not the case for Montreal-Toronto. AC and PD are premium carriers, especially out of YTZ, where they offer complimentary alcohol and such to all passengers.

Basically proving my point that in terms of a business aspect, Montreal-Toronto is not lightyears behind Sydney-Melbourne.

I still believe the main reason why Montreal-Toronto's passenger numbers are far lower than SYD-MEL is due to one thing and one thing only, proximity of both cities and therefore, other means of transportation. If the two Canadian cities had been further, we would have seen more competitive air numbers.

The main reason why YUL-YYZ doesn't figure on OAG's list of busiest domestic routes by frequency is because the traffic between YUL and Toronto is split more evenly between YYZ and YTZ than Sydney's between MEL and AVV.

Edit: Added JQ numbers on SYD-MEL.

Johnny Aussie Jan 13, 2018 4:37 PM

Not sure where u r getting your info from?

1 Jetstar flight between MEL and SYD? There are 13. QF is closer to 34 - perhaps you were looking at bookings and not timetable? Also 2/3 of the flights between YYZ\YTZ and YUL are on smaller Q400s. Also note JQ and TT fly high density A321s and A320s as well. And believe it or not cost conscious business travellers also utilise those flights. VA is also now a full service carrier as well not a LCC. So a vast majority of MEL-SYD flights offer J Class whereas YYZ/YTZ-YUL would not.

Regardless looking at just one day is pointless the OAG analysis is based on annual figures. Mondays are a slow business travel day. Mid week is busier like Thursdays for example. Some peak business days QF gets up to 40 and VA about 30.

Anyway. I'll let this go. Despite the volume of frequencies etc. Like I said MEL-SYD has over 9 million pax per annum that doesn't include AVV. I'll let that figure speak for itself. Based on your unscientific guesstimate analysis YUL-YYZ/YTZ would be well under half of that total.

thenoflyzone Jan 13, 2018 7:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8045993)
Not sure where u r getting your info from?

My bad. You are correct about JQ. When I went on the JQ website, I only used the AVV numbers. Forgot to add the MEL numbers for some reason. That one JQ flight that was listed on the QF website must have thrown me off. It is now corrected.

However, QF doesn't have 34 flights on monday Jan 15. They only have 29. I used each airline's respective flight timetable from their website. So the rest of the info is 100% accurate. No guesstimates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8045993)
Despite the volume of frequencies etc. Like I said MEL-SYD has over 9 million pax per annum that doesn't include AVV.

AVV handles around 600,000 passengers, no more. And not all of that is from SYD.

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...r-flights-end/

TheGreatestX Jan 13, 2018 9:05 PM

Swoop is hiring flight attendants, captains and first officers in Abbotsford and Hamilton.

Johnny Aussie Jan 13, 2018 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX (Post 8046204)
Swoop is hiring flight attendants, captains and first officers in Abbotsford and Hamilton.

Looks like we are going to have Swoop, Canada Jetlines and Flair all vying for the LCC market and seeming to focus on YXX and YHM. This should be fun. I'm sure AC will deploy rouge more domestically to make this truly a bloodbath.

DrNest Jan 13, 2018 9:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8046224)
Looks like we are going to have Swoop, Canada Jetlines and Flair all vying for the LCC market and seeming to focus on YXX and YHM. This should be fun. I'm sure AC will deploy rouge more domestically to make this truly a bloodbath.

Flair have also started flying select routes from YYZ as well as YHM. I'm intrigued at their logic for this if they want to be a true LCC. Landing fees and handling expenses at Pearson aren't cheap, it seems counter intuitive to fly from there and focus on making Hamilton a main base.

Johnny Aussie Jan 13, 2018 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8046264)
Flair have also started flying select routes from YYZ as well as YHM. I'm intrigued at their logic for this if they want to be a true LCC. Landing fees and handling expenses at Pearson aren't cheap, it seems counter intuitive to fly from there and focus on making Hamilton a main base.

Yes. And YVR as well out west along with YXX.

Having three new LCC entrants all in a short period of time is going to be brutal all going for the same markets. How low will they be able to undercut each other.

Jetlines route map has them flying from YXX to Red Deer and Lethbridge on 180 seat aircraft. yikes.

thenoflyzone Jan 14, 2018 1:48 AM

Bombardier wants to sell Downsview. The facility employs 3500 people. The company says it wants to maintain a presence in Toronto, with a possible move to YYZ.

http://business.financialpost.com/pm...ew-up-for-sale

On another note, Air China will increase PEK-YUL to 6x weekly, from March 25 til October 27. YUL-HAV-YUL remains 1x weekly.

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ai...treal-beijing/

This was supposed to happen last summer, along with a change of aircraft to the B789, but the route went from 4x weekly to 5x weekly only, albeit on the B77W. The B789 eventually did come along in September, and now CA seems like they will follow through with their plan for a 6th weekly summer frequency.

casper Jan 14, 2018 3:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8046398)
Bombardier wants to sell Downsview. The facility employs 3500 people. The company says it wants to maintain a presence in Toronto, with a possible move to YYZ.

http://business.financialpost.com/pm...ew-up-for-sale

....

What is weird is did the not just pull down the old Douglas plant that was a YYZ recently? Perhaps a new built facility makes more sense.

Coldrsx Jan 14, 2018 3:39 AM

I miss that building, it always welcomed me in from the north.

Coldrsx Jan 14, 2018 7:26 PM

A wee bit of fog here at YVR.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DThke1OVoAA501L.jpg
www.twitter.com/ianoyeg

zahav Jan 15, 2018 8:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8044576)
Due to US numbers only. And again, same reasons. YVR is relatively isolated compared to the major US cities. No choice but to fly if you want to go further than the States of Washington and Oregon. Remove the US, and YVR's international numbers drop by half.

Montrealers are within a 6 hr driving distance of several large US metro areas and a US population basin of over 40 million people.

While I do agree that YVR punches above its weight for international numbers, let's face it, those numbers are mostly concentrated to the US and China. YUL has a more diverse international network.

It's kind of funny how anti-Vancouver you are in almost every post, masking this one as trying to downplay YVR's numbers is the mnost laughable. First of all, if it was the other way around and YUL had great US traffic figures, you would never mention it as a downplay. Secondly, claiming China and US dominate is entirely false. Proportional to it's polulation, our international numbers are way higher than YUL without transborder. And we have daily (often multiple daily) flights to Tokoy Haneda & Narita, Osaka, Nagoya, Delhi, Seoul, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydey, Auckland, Mexico City (will soon be 5 daily), London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, Munich, and more. I agree Montreal has some distinct destinations, it hardly counts as much more diverse, and definitely means YVR is not dominated by China

Johnny Aussie Jan 15, 2018 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8047293)
It's kind of funny how anti-Vancouver you are in almost every post, masking this one as trying to downplay YVR's numbers is the mnost laughable. First of all, if it was the other way around and YUL had great US traffic figures, you would never mention it as a downplay. Secondly, claiming China and US dominate is entirely false. Proportional to it's polulation, our international numbers are way higher than YUL without transborder. And we have daily (often multiple daily) flights to Tokoy Haneda & Narita, Osaka, Nagoya, Delhi, Seoul, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydey, Auckland, Mexico City (will soon be 5 daily), London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris, Munich, and more. I agree Montreal has some distinct destinations, it hardly counts as much more diverse, and definitely means YVR is not dominated by China

I might add YVR also has the lowest “sun destination” international traffic per capita of any of the major cities in Canada. The flights I am referring to of course are those flights where Canadians flee the bitter cold temps in the winter. I’m not saying I blame them and I’m not saying Vancouverites don’t travel to warm sunny destinations but on a much lesser scale. Just look at the never-ending list of destinations for some cities and you get my drift. These make up a HUGE amount of international travel from other Canadian cities... those international numbers aren’t to just European or other global destinations. YVR is the best globally connected city of its size in North America in fact better connected than many cities much much larger too.

ghYHZ Jan 15, 2018 12:37 PM

Here in Halifax…there’s no snow on the ground (might get 5cm tonight)…and it was 16C 60F last Friday but the winter schedule from YHZ to Sun Destination is ramping up with an additional 50 flights a week:

https://halifaxstanfield.ca/wp-conte...un-Summary.pdf

Fredericton YFC also gets into the act with flights to: Cayo Coco, Cayo Santa Maria, Cancun, Puerto Plata, and Punta Cana

https://www.frederictonairport.ca/sun/

As well as Moncton:

http://cyqm.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...017-2018-1.pdf

Even the smaller maritime airports at Charlottetown YEG and Saint John YSJ have flights to the sun.

And now head over to Newfoundland and St. John’s International Airport YYT:

http://stjohnsairport.com/sun-destinations/

Even Gander International has flights to Cuba this winter which harks back to a time in the Cold War era when Aeroflot, Cubana, Interflug (East Germany) and CSA-Czechoslovak stopped for fuel on their way to/from Cuba and many travelers got their first taste of freedom there when they defected during the stopover in the Gander Terminal.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-07-...-6066_1_gander

thenoflyzone Jan 15, 2018 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8047293)
It's kind of funny how anti-Vancouver you are in almost every post

You might see it that way, but I'm not anti-YVR. I was just stating several facts. I wasn't downplaying YVR's numbers. I was dissecting it and showing you where most of the people that fly intl are going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8047293)
Secondly, claiming China and US dominate is entirely false.

No it isn't. China and the US make up almost 60% of YVR's international passenger count. That is a fact.

Same way 50% of YUL's international traffic is made up of people going to the US and France, or maybe even the US and Mexico, or the U.S and Cuba.

And you dont need to list me all the intl destinations that YVR has. I'm aware of all of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8047293)
I agree Montreal has some distinct destinations, it hardly counts as much more diverse, and definitely means YVR is not dominated by China

definition of diverse: showing a great deal of variety; very different.

YUL has non stop service to more destinations in more countries in more continents than YVR. So again, by definition, YUL has a more diverse list of destinations than YVR.

These are not my opinions. These are facts.

thenoflyzone Jan 15, 2018 2:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8047298)
I might add YVR also has the lowest “sun destination” international traffic per capita of any of the major cities in Canada. The flights I am referring to of course are those flights where Canadians flee the bitter cold temps in the winter. I’m not saying I blame them and I’m not saying Vancouverites don’t travel to warm sunny destinations but on a much lesser scale. Just look at the never-ending list of destinations for some cities and you get my drift. These make up a HUGE amount of international travel from other Canadian cities... those international numbers aren’t to just European or other global destinations.

An international destination is an international destination. Whether it's Varadero or Shenzhen is irrelevant. Vancouver has a more temperate climate, hence it's citizens dont feel the need to flee it in winter.

It's currently -23C in YUL and we got 36 cm of snow 3 days ago. We've had over 100 cm so far this year, and winter is nowhere near over. Where would you go if you could fly out tomorrow for one week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 8047298)
YVR is the best globally connected city of its size in North America in fact better connected than many cities much much larger too.

I agree, and I never said it wasn't.
"diverse" and "best globally connected city of its size" are two different things.

jmt18325 Jan 15, 2018 3:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8047364)
An international destination is an international destination.

It shouldn't matter if it's in the US, either, then.

SkahHigh Jan 15, 2018 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8044462)
YUL-YYZ isn't even Air Canada's busiest route, by passenger traffic it is YYZ-YVR. While some days frequencies might be higher on YUL-YYZ, the aircraft used on YVR-YYZ is much larger and as a result, total pax numbers are higher

The route also has WestJet and Porter operating it... So pointing out to AC is useless. We’re talking about total daily pax numbers for a corridor, regardless the airline. YUL-YYZ is the busiest in Canada bar none.

thenoflyzone Jan 15, 2018 3:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325 (Post 8047398)
It shouldn't matter if it's in the US, either, then.

You're right.

On another note, and speaking of diverse.....

Tunisair increasing service to YUL.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...ervice-in-s18/

Quote:

Tunisair during summer peak season plans to introduce additional frequency on Tunis – Montreal route, which would see the addition of 4th weekly rotation, from 18JUN18 to 15SEP18. The additional service, operated by A330-200, is available for reservation.

TU202 TUN1020 – 1415YUL 332 156
TU202 TUN1615 – 2010YUL 332 3

TU203 YUL1615 – 0530+1TUN 332 156
TU203 YUL2210 – 1125+1TUN 332 3
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 8047413)
The route also has WestJet and Porter operating it... So pointing out to AC is useless. We’re talking about total daily pax numbers for a corridor, regardless the airline. YUL-YYZ is the busiest in Canada bar none.

indeed, over 60 flights each way between the two cities every day. It is still definitely one of the busiest domestic routes in the world in terms of frequency.

mezzanine Jan 15, 2018 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8047355)


definition of diverse: showing a great deal of variety; very different.

YUL has non stop service to more destinations in more countries in more continents than YVR. So again, by definition, YUL has a more diverse list of destinations than YVR.

These are not my opinions. These are facts.


Facts?

DrNest Jan 15, 2018 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mezzanine (Post 8047445)

That "Facts?" link takes you to an interesting article by OAG on Megahubs. It's criteria for connectivity includes domestic, and only flights within a 6 hour window. So doesn't give a full picture, nor does it take into account solely international destinations, which is what the argument between YUL and YVR appears to entail.

mezzanine Jan 15, 2018 5:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8047517)
That "Facts?" link takes you to an interesting article by OAG on Megahubs. It's criteria for connectivity includes domestic, and only flights within a 6 hour window. So doesn't give a full picture, nor does it take into account solely international destinations, which is what the argument between YUL and YVR appears to entail.

What? wow, that's a really useless fanboi stat. my bad then...

DrNest Jan 15, 2018 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mezzanine (Post 8047552)
What? wow, that's a really useless fanboi stat. my bad then...

So did you not actually read the article you posted when questioning thenoflyzone's "facts"?
I don't personally agree with OAG's assessment for connectivity to require a 6 hour window. For me I feel in you can fly into an airport from one destination, and depart the same airport to a different destination, be that with the same or different airlines, then there is connectivity.

mezzanine Jan 15, 2018 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 8047559)
So did you not actually read the article you posted when questioning thenoflyzone's "facts"?
I don't personally agree with OAG's assessment for connectivity to require a 6 hour window. For me I feel in you can fly into an airport from one destination, and depart the same airport to a different destination, be that with the same or different airlines, then there is connectivity.

I got lost when it was decided that transborder isn't international. ;-)

DrNest Jan 15, 2018 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mezzanine (Post 8047580)
I got lost when it was decided that transborder isn't international. ;-)

Me too. I don't get that either!


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