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Denscity Dec 9, 2022 5:22 AM

Flights from Toronto to Sacramento am I reading that right??

nname Dec 9, 2022 6:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9811122)
I found this quote to be interesting:

Maybe they'll add YOW/YUL-YVR. :D

It's shown on their route map... I wonder if they'll fix it, or maybe it's part of their plan for the new routes??

Dominion301 Dec 9, 2022 6:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9811139)
Maybe they'll add YOW/YUL-YVR. :D

It's shown on their route map... I wonder if they'll fix it, or maybe it's part of their plan for the new routes??

It would only make sense to add those. Could do 1 r/t daily to each and only require 1 additional aircraft. Would take YVR up to 5 daily flights and a bit of a critical mass before opening another station.

Dominion301 Dec 9, 2022 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 9811123)
Flights from Toronto to Sacramento am I reading that right??

That is correct.

Zmonkey Dec 9, 2022 2:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9811231)
That is correct.

I assume this will be a flight targeting people going to the Europe with heavy connections.

Air Canada already does Vancouver out of Sacramento, so not a huge shocker to add in a metro the size of Calgary. Sacramento County has 1.5 Million and the metro has about 2 Million.

https://www.saccounty.gov/Government...d%20population.

manny_santos Dec 9, 2022 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zmonkey (Post 9811263)
I assume this will be a flight targeting people going to the Europe with heavy connections.

Air Canada already does Vancouver out of Sacramento, so not a huge shocker to add in a metro the size of Calgary. Sacramento County has 1.5 Million and the metro has about 2 Million.

https://www.saccounty.gov/Government...d%20population.

They've also got an NBA team.

YYCguys Dec 9, 2022 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9811231)
That is correct.

On which airline?

Calfan12 Dec 9, 2022 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys (Post 9811649)
On which airline?

On Air Canada! AC will be flying the Toronto YYZ - Sacramento SMF route.

hollywoodcory Dec 10, 2022 7:52 PM

WS removed YYZ-DUB/GLA/EDI in this weekend's update, officially ending its TATL service from Eastern Canada.

hollywoodcory Dec 10, 2022 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9812350)
WS removed YYZ-DUB/GLA/EDI in this weekend's update, officially ending its TATL service from Eastern Canada.

Also YVR-LGW appears to be removed too.

hehehe Dec 10, 2022 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9812417)
Also YVR-LGW appears to be removed too.

I guess that means they could hypothetically still add a very small amount of service. Maybe they’re waiting for AMS slots still?? This probably means yyc-yyz is here to stay on the 787?

zahav Dec 10, 2022 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9812350)
WS removed YYZ-DUB/GLA/EDI in this weekend's update, officially ending its TATL service from Eastern Canada.

Ahh so it's official. It's hard to believe really, there was a long time where Westjet really tried to angle in on the eastern market; domestically, transborder, and international. I still remember in 2004 when they moved their eastern hub to YYZ from YHM (I flew WS from YVR-YYZ return in 2003, and YYZ was insignificant then for Westjet. But from 2004-March 2020, it was pretty much building up that hub. And now just over two years later they paring it down hugely. The reason it's still a hub is because it does offer quite a lot of east-west connections still, and it has the massive Caribbean presence. There's so many destinations I could never remember them all, but some are all like once or twice weekly type things, which is typical for sun destinations. But even their transborder offerings are not that extensive (7 destinations from YYZ vs. YVR's 12 destinations and YYC's 20 destinations). It's "still a hub" but it's crazy that after such a long time trying to gain a foothold there (and it appeared they had?), they just give it up. It would no doubt have been studied at length, and the numbers must not have worked. Because a big shift in an established national airline like that is pretty rare.

Speaking of YYZ, all of these new airlines are making things very crowded on some domestic routes, especially from YYZ. We went from no competition to having almost the same amount of airlines as America (ok, that's an exaggeration, but it's not that far off). Flair, Lynx, Jetlines, Porter, all on top of AC and WS. Plus these same airlines are also flying to lots of Southern Ontario cities from all over the country (ie YXU, YKZ), so this could further siphon off would be pax from YYZ. I have seen this before and it doesn't end well. Jetsgo, Harmony, Canjet, I'm probably missing some too! Even in the 90s, WS's entry to market was already making a big dent in Canadian Airlines out west. WS essentially went into western route pairings that Canadian Airlines had a big role (ex. YYC-YVR, YVR-YEG, YYC-YWG). So even though WS wasn't solely (or even mainly) to blame for Canadian's demise, it showed the equilibrium always seems to go back to 2 or 3 players max. I've never seen so many new airlines so quick, it's hard to believe they are all absorbing that extra capacity. Good if they are, I like seeing success, just skeptical given history.

The only primarily domestic airlines (ie. not Air Transat) that really succeed over time are the more niche ones like Air North, because they are very specific with their routes and home base (ie. it's almost all to and from the Yukon, they are very successful in that market). They have 737s and other smaller aircraft, but have held their own and I would say beaten both AC and WS on routes they compete on (both AC and WS still operate to YXY, but with lots of variation in frequency and even swapping between Jazz and Mainline over time). Even Canadian used to operate 737s YVR-YXY. Air North has expanded and managed to be dominant and popular, by sticking to certain routes and what they do best. Rapid expansion=catastrophe

hollywoodcory Dec 10, 2022 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9812425)
I guess that means they could hypothetically still add a very small amount of service. Maybe they’re waiting for AMS slots still?? This probably means yyc-yyz is here to stay on the 787?

In theory, yes. But its unlikely there will anymore long haul adds.

hehehe Dec 10, 2022 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9812453)
In theory, yes. But its unlikely there will anymore long haul adds.

I'm holding out hope that they codeshare on KL's YYC-AMS one day. Probably more effective than flying 3x weekly YYC-AMS.

casper Dec 11, 2022 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9812417)
Also YVR-LGW appears to be removed too.

Disappointing. The locals in Vancouver will now need to fly on either the BA or AC flights. What will we do with only 2 airlines on the route :shrug:

The local airport authority needs to start courting Virgin Atlantic. Perhaps BA will bring back the A380 on one of their flights to fill the gap.

Denscity Dec 11, 2022 7:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9812479)
Disappointing. The locals in Vancouver will now need to fly on either the BA or AC flights. What will we do with only 2 airlines on the route :shrug:

The local airport authority needs to start courting Virgin Atlantic. Perhaps BA will bring back the A380 on one of their flights to fill the gap.

Ha those are the two best airlines to have on the route.

casper Dec 11, 2022 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 9812609)
Ha those are the two best airlines to have on the route.

Both BA and AC are great and they would be doing double daily but the flights do fill up quickly. Demand is high during the summer and the flights fill up quickly.

zahav Dec 11, 2022 12:07 PM

I think everyone had a feeling WS was going to cancel YVR-LGW, even though they kept it fully bookable until it was removed entirely (unlike some routes that get dropped and have that weird period where only certain flights and fares are open, but it's about to be chopped). But with double daily service to London from YYC, the writing was on the wall. I too BA sees this and brings back the A380 but not going to hold my breath. They have the 777 and 350 (which is already an increase from the 777 it was originally scheduled as). And they probably assume that the loss of direct WS flights will result in more pax connecting in YYC rather than moving over to BA direct from YVR. People are cheap, they will do a one-stop if it saves them, and WS knows that. That's why they gutted YEG, they know people will speak with their wallets and go for the cheap connecting in YYC options. It sucks, but seems to be the case. I wish BA would upgauge LHR to a 380, still possible, just not getting my hopes up

Almost all of WS's additions in YYC make sense, the only one I am surprised by is the 5x weekly Rome service. I didn't think there was this much demand, even with connecting pax from Western Canada and the US. Of all the major Western European airports, it's service and reach is the spottiest (compared to CDG, AMS, FRA, LHR). Their own carriers are nothing like KLM, BA, or LH. Alitalia went under and had to be bailed by the government, and then re-emerged with a new name (this was only in 2020). As much as people love Italy, Rome is a considerably smaller draw than CDG, LHR, AMS, FRA, and BCN. So kind of surprised they upped it to 5x, 3x would have been sufficient I'd have thought. But hey, maybe there's a massive tourism exchange between Calgary and Italy?

casper Dec 11, 2022 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9812634)
I think everyone had a feeling WS was going to cancel YVR-LGW, even though they kept it fully bookable until it was removed entirely (unlike some routes that get dropped and have that weird period where only certain flights and fares are open, but it's about to be chopped). But with double daily service to London from YYC, the writing was on the wall. I too BA sees this and brings back the A380 but not going to hold my breath. They have the 777 and 350 (which is already an increase from the 777 it was originally scheduled as). And they probably assume that the loss of direct WS flights will result in more pax connecting in YYC rather than moving over to BA direct from YVR. People are cheap, they will do a one-stop if it saves them, and WS knows that. That's why they gutted YEG, they know people will speak with their wallets and go for the cheap connecting in YYC options. It sucks, but seems to be the case. I wish BA would upgauge LHR to a 380, still possible, just not getting my hopes up

There has always been three airlines on the route. AirTransat and then WestJet. We will see. Air Canada could also chose to do double daily 777.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9812634)
Almost all of WS's additions in YYC make sense, the only one I am surprised by is the 5x weekly Rome service. I didn't think there was this much demand, even with connecting pax from Western Canada and the US. Of all the major Western European airports, it's service and reach is the spottiest (compared to CDG, AMS, FRA, LHR). Their own carriers are nothing like KLM, BA, or LH. Alitalia went under and had to be bailed by the government, and then re-emerged with a new name (this was only in 2020). As much as people love Italy, Rome is a considerably smaller draw than CDG, LHR, AMS, FRA, and BCN. So kind of surprised they upped it to 5x, 3x would have been sufficient I'd have thought. But hey, maybe there's a massive tourism exchange between Calgary and Italy?

Rome and Barcelona are major cruise ship ports in Europe. NCL and some of the other cruise ship lines have frequently done "free air" promotions where they basically give you free air fare. When that happens the cruise line is buying the cheapest ticket available. It was not uncommon to have NCL route people from California through Calgary on WS if the price was right.

thewave46 Dec 11, 2022 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9812436)
Ahh so it's official. It's hard to believe really, there was a long time where Westjet really tried to angle in on the eastern market; domestically, transborder, and international. I still remember in 2004 when they moved their eastern hub to YYZ from YHM (I flew WS from YVR-YYZ return in 2003, and YYZ was insignificant then for Westjet. But from 2004-March 2020, it was pretty much building up that hub. And now just over two years later they paring it down hugely. The reason it's still a hub is because it does offer quite a lot of east-west connections still, and it has the massive Caribbean presence. There's so many destinations I could never remember them all, but some are all like once or twice weekly type things, which is typical for sun destinations. But even their transborder offerings are not that extensive (7 destinations from YYZ vs. YVR's 12 destinations and YYC's 20 destinations). It's "still a hub" but it's crazy that after such a long time trying to gain a foothold there (and it appeared they had?), they just give it up. It would no doubt have been studied at length, and the numbers must not have worked. Because a big shift in an established national airline like that is pretty rare.

Speaking of YYZ, all of these new airlines are making things very crowded on some domestic routes, especially from YYZ. We went from no competition to having almost the same amount of airlines as America (ok, that's an exaggeration, but it's not that far off). Flair, Lynx, Jetlines, Porter, all on top of AC and WS. Plus these same airlines are also flying to lots of Southern Ontario cities from all over the country (ie YXU, YKZ), so this could further siphon off would be pax from YYZ. I have seen this before and it doesn't end well. Jetsgo, Harmony, Canjet, I'm probably missing some too! Even in the 90s, WS's entry to market was already making a big dent in Canadian Airlines out west. WS essentially went into western route pairings that Canadian Airlines had a big role (ex. YYC-YVR, YVR-YEG, YYC-YWG). So even though WS wasn't solely (or even mainly) to blame for Canadian's demise, it showed the equilibrium always seems to go back to 2 or 3 players max. I've never seen so many new airlines so quick, it's hard to believe they are all absorbing that extra capacity. Good if they are, I like seeing success, just skeptical given history.

The only primarily domestic airlines (ie. not Air Transat) that really succeed over time are the more niche ones like Air North, because they are very specific with their routes and home base (ie. it's almost all to and from the Yukon, they are very successful in that market). They have 737s and other smaller aircraft, but have held their own and I would say beaten both AC and WS on routes they compete on (both AC and WS still operate to YXY, but with lots of variation in frequency and even swapping between Jazz and Mainline over time). Even Canadian used to operate 737s YVR-YXY. Air North has expanded and managed to be dominant and popular, by sticking to certain routes and what they do best. Rapid expansion=catastrophe

Westjet is playing the conservative game. Airline mania is in full swing, and the investor cash is just being shovelled in. Why burn cash trying to compete with upstarts dumping seats, when one can position oneself as the reliable second Canada/North America airline? Even more important when staff is hard to come by. Running an stretched, unreliable operation hurts Westjet more, because they charge more and have a good reputation.

Running a flat-out crazy expansion in a high-fuel cost, rising interest rate, and tight labour market seems to be the plan for others. One keeps Swoop to do the nominal battle with that. Westjet can clean up on last-minute fares when (insert unreliable ULCC operator) strands a bunch of people because people like cheap on the surface more than they like ‘Getting to somewhere reliably on their vacation’. I’ll pay more thanks, and not spend my few actual days off fighting with a ULCC that left me stuck somewhere.

YYZ is ground zero. Transatlantic out of YYZ was always going to get slashed, because it uses a lot of resources exactly when domestic demand peaks. In a limited resource environment, keeping the meat-and-potatoes of one’s business operating reliably is the best use of them.

Good for YYC for getting Westjet’s attempt to use the 787 as it actually should be used. I hope it pans out for them.


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