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PHX31 Aug 7, 2007 3:37 PM

Is this going to be the first high-rise ever built in the history of mankind? NO. And I think it is safe to assume every high-rise has fire protection built in... ie, hydrants or fire hookups on each level (or many levels) of the building. I doubt they need any more equipment (more than a hose). Maybe they need some high-rise fire fighting training, but again, there are already high rises in Tempe, i'm sure they've had some training, so why is this jackass brining up this tripe for this tower? I'm sure it has to do with what don is saying.

vertex Aug 7, 2007 4:19 PM

Arredondo has brought the issue up several times before, but it appears his argument has fallen on deaf ears. So what if he decides to go to the papers to make his case?

Does that make him a jackass? Neither of you are are qualified to talk about firefighting anyway, so what's up with the assumptions?

If you guys have an axe to grind about Arrendono, then just say so, rather than continue to hide behind flimsy arguments and excuses.

And until recently, I don't recall Tempe having any high-rises, unless someone is desperate enough to think Manzanita Hall is worthy of the category...

JAHOPL Aug 7, 2007 4:19 PM

I suspect Ben Arredondo is frustrated with the future upward growth of Tempe and would prefer it to remain as it was in the past, a college-town with low rises at best, but that doesn't seem to be the future of Tempe. It's important to be concerned with police and fire protection of tall buildings, as I'm sure those who are constructing these buildings are as well. Ben's a little younger than I thought though after looking up his bio, 58, so he has a few years left.

vertex Aug 7, 2007 4:40 PM

I just don't get it. If Arredondo was quoted as saying "I hate high-rises", and then proceeded to vote against every proposal out there, then fine.

I get the feeling that he is very skeptical about the rush of proposals. Other than the 1st two Centerpoint buildings, along with Hayden Ferry Lakeside, nothing is a lock. All we have to show right now are torn-down Tempe mainstays and rampant speculation.

PhxSprawler Aug 7, 2007 5:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vertex (Post 2995541)
If you guys have an axe to grind about Arrendono, then just say so, rather than continue to hide behind flimsy arguments and excuses.

No offense, but I don't understand this comment. I think everyone made it irrefutably clear that they are opposed to Arrendono publicly fighting high-rises.

I respect the fact that he wants to obtain costs estimates on fighting fires in high-rises, and would hope the cost is passed on to the residents of downtown instead of being subsidized by the rest of the city. I do not respect him for using it as a platform for preventing change.

I believe Arrendono should just come out and say he has "an axe to grind" about high-rise buildings and stop "hiding" behind his "flimsy arguments and excuses."

In the grand scheme of things, everything great about cities was opposed by someone. I'm sure someone in Giza thought the pyramids blocked views and angered the fire gods.

sundevilgrad Aug 7, 2007 5:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxSprawler (Post 2995637)
I'm sure someone in Giza thought the pyramids blocked views and angered the fire gods.

LOL, NIMBY's in Ancient Egypt! Now that's funny.

vertex Aug 7, 2007 5:30 PM

Quote:

I believe Arrendono should just come out and say he has "an axe to grind" about high-rise buildings and stop "hiding" behind his "flimsy arguments and excuses."
And the Arrendondo beat-down continues...

Quote:

In the grand scheme of things, everything great about cities was opposed by someone.
Funny, but it seems that everything great about Tempe (Long Wong's, the Co-op, etc) is being torn up by people who want to want to 'capitalize' on what's great about Tempe. The result? Really great tattered fences around really great empty lots...

PHX31 Aug 7, 2007 7:13 PM

/\ Until this page of this thread i didn't even know who the hell Arrendondo was. I don't have an axe to grind with him, I just think his comments and questions were ridiculous and "flimsy".

What's with you defending him? Are you his nephew or something?

loftlovr Aug 7, 2007 8:21 PM

answer the question vertex- are you little Johnny Arrendondo? :haha:
That is funny!
vertex- I don't think anyone here has an axe to grind with Arrendondo- just that there always seems to be such opposition to skyscrapers in Phoenix/ Tempe, and this is a skyscraper forum.... we are used to Phil Gordon- who only makes positive comments regarding development. Arredondo seems to dislike building height!
You made a valid point about the fenced off lots. It pisses all of us off....

I do not see how these developers plan to sell all of these proposals.

In addition to the HFL buildings and Centerpoint's future towers, we also have Mosaic, Onyx, Stadium Towers, and now the proposed Pier at Town Lake development, SunCor's other site.... and the Club Rio proposal- not to mention all of the mid-rise stuff! The Pier and SunCor lot each have about 5 towers a piece on them. Granted they can be spread out over a 10 yrs span but c'on!

Wouldn't Tempe need a far stronger work force/ school system to justify all of these high rises?

If 30% of the current list were proposed I would agree that we could make them all happen....
But developers ruin shit by overbuilding/ over-proposing. That is what happened in Gaslamp too....
Like Cielo- if it ain't gonna happen let the buyers jump to Century Plaza so it can be sold out....
-just my rant-

vertex Aug 8, 2007 2:48 AM

Phx31 said:
Quote:

What's with you defending him? Are you his nephew or something?
Jeez I hope not. Have you seen what the guy looks like? :)

Honestly, he strikes me as the only one on the council right now who doesn't rubber-stamp everything put in front of him. He is not anti-development, but he is skeptical. It pisses me off when people portray him negatively.

If the development someone is offering is really going to strengthen the surrounding neighborhood, then they shouldn't be afraid of trying to win him over.

Loftlover said:
Quote:

In addition to the HFL buildings and Centerpoint's future towers, we also have Mosaic, Onyx, Stadium Towers, and now the proposed Pier at Town Lake development, SunCor's other site.... and the Club Rio proposal- not to mention all of the mid-rise stuff! The Pier and SunCor lot each have about 5 towers a piece on them. Granted they can be spread out over a 10 yrs span but c'on!
I'll breath easier once each of these buildings are topped off. I am skeptical of projects like Mosaic; the developers received such a windfall from the combination of the uber-cheap price paid for the land, along with the way the council rolled over to approve the variance, I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the project and walked away tomorrow. Besides, 3 different ground-breaking dates doesn't instill confidence.

Many approved projects, such as Centerpoint 3 & 4, are years away, and may never get built (at least in their current form). Anything else on Don's list that is 'proposed', I'm not counting on, including the NamWest Town Lake and the 7th/Mill projects.

desertdj Aug 8, 2007 5:23 PM

Yeah those Arrendondo's are everywhere, there was one that was a coach at my high school (Tempe High) and another student there as well, all were related to him too. Well I don't mind an opposing view sometimes, its a very good thing to have balance on governments too, but building up is inevitable and if we don’t have the capability for public services to handle these buildings now or try to avoid the issue now by not approving more high rises, the fact as we all know is Tempe has to grow “up” so its going to happen sooner or later.

Also call me selfish on this issue but I really hope they over build those condos and manage to get a bunch up, then they will have to lower the prices on them and I’ll be able to afford to buy one :-)

PhxSprawler Aug 8, 2007 8:18 PM

I happen to believe Tempe has ensured their fire fighters have appropriate training for high-rises. I also believe that infusing 2000 residents into any community would cause additional costs for fire, police, and other services. Sure, high-rises may require additional elements, however, condo owners will be paying additional taxes by having higher value per square foot.

I have no beef with Arrendondo. He has a problem with building heights. I disagree with his priorities, that's all. His focus should be with ensuring the city is equipped to deal with building heights, not trying to lower heights.

I would like to have kept some of Tempe's landmarks also, such as Long Wongs, and I hope my favorite restaurant (Phoenecia Cafe) is never impacted. This is an issue where the developers need to build relationships with the owners and keep the locations at the base of their towers. We can get the best of both worlds!

combusean Aug 8, 2007 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vertex
... I am skeptical of projects like Mosaic; the developers received such a windfall from the combination of the uber-cheap price paid for the land, along with the way the council rolled over to approve the variance, I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the project and walked away tomorrow. Besides, 3 different ground-breaking dates doesn't instill confidence.

Mosaic was under design review for at least a year as NIMBY's in Maple Ash eliminated more and more of its amenities and pushed its massing further and further back. It would have likely broken ground a long time ago otherwise.

I don't feel sorry for Gentle Strength either--they had a history of mismanagement and completely frittered away everything they got for the land into the new store (leased space mind you)--putting them right back in crippling debt and eventual bankruptcy.

Arredondo has said it flat out--he has an issue with building heights completely aside from whatever (bogus) risk they cause to police and fire protection. Tempe made it very clear that their height limit is 300 feet and he's the only one continuing to push the sour grapes for projects that are even under that.

vertex Aug 8, 2007 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 2998137)
Mosaic was under design review for at least a year as NIMBY's in Maple Ash eliminated more and more of its amenities and pushed its massing further and further back. It would have likely broken ground a long time ago otherwise.

The city approved the plans last fall, but only after forcing the developers to make big improvements on the design. I am glad they setback the tower, and I have the Maple/Ash Nimby's to thank for that, in spite of your opinion.

Even so, the developers have been selling Mosaic for a year now. They cleared the lot last December, then promised ground-breaking ceremonies in April, July, and now September. Meanwhile the fence falls apart, the wrap is shredded and torn, and the dusty trailer sits there with bubbling vinyl siding and bars on the doors.


http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8...19smallub2.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/466...20smallmx4.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/145...23smallxz9.jpg

And next door, we have the Farmer Arts district waiting in the wings, with the old Tempe Bicycle building about 2/3 demolished. It's been this way for 2 weeks now, with skaters in the day and street kids at night.

But it sure does make a great dystopian skate park...


http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3...21smallra8.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1...22smallsy1.jpg

PHX31 Aug 8, 2007 11:14 PM

I bought my bike from Tempe Bicycle a long time ago when I was at ASU.

But I'm glad they are going to make better use of that land (eventually).

Azndragon837 Aug 9, 2007 8:13 AM

That NamWest development looks completely different than the initial design I saw when I was working with a local architecture firm last year as an intern. I really don't like the boxy architecture (NamWest probably went to another firm or something). The design I saw used a tapering tower with several towers curving and whatnot (like HFL).

-Andrew

solediavolo Aug 9, 2007 12:52 PM

I don't live in Tempe, but I am a fan enough that I'd like to interject a bit on this Arrendondo thing.

Let me state also that although I don't have the same level of interest in high rises as those here, I'm behind whatever helps improve the downtown areas in Phoenix and Tempe-so I think the recent developments, proposed and otherwise, are a very good thing for most everyone-high rises and all.

So on this I disagree with Ben's philosophy to keep Tempe as the city he remembers from his youth.

That said, his expressed concerns on fighfighting and training are real. Tempe has had some HR training, but nothing like what they'll need in future while these projects come to fruition. Even Phoenix Fire has only recently started taking HR training to the level it needs to be to match our downtown. It's actually fairly expensive and a very time consuming endeavor, so it's not hard to imagine it would be much the same for Tempe crews(the cheapest way to train is to do it on duty, meaning trucks and crews are out of service, meaning units are spread thinner while others are covering needed areas).

It also should be noted that while most fire units are four man crews, first arriving HR units need to be staffed with five. It's the only way to address all the tactical needs for 1st due companies. Obviously, the cost associated with this becomes an issue. Keep in mind, also that Tempe's plans to build out along Tempe Town Lake, and possibly spread some high rises along Apache, means not only an increased number of exposed 1st due units to HR issues, and with it, increased staffing, it calls for possibly a very expensive redeployment and repositioning of units to match the density. Worse yet, it more than likely would involve building additional fire stations to match that density at some point.

To say that HR firefighting requires no more than a hose is very misinformed, unfortunately. And the training is intensive, including understanding that HR firefighting tactics require a completely different mindset and philosophy than Valley fire departments have been geared to tackle over the decades.

I can't speak for Arrendondo( I do hear he is good guy, that really cares about Tempe, though) and whether he truly is concerned with this issue or it's just a debate tactic meant to justify his desire to keep Tempe small-townish, but just for the record he does have relatives who are firemen in Phoenix, including one who has quite a bit of experience and some rank both on the job and in the local union, so I'm presuming he's getting at least some of his information from that direction, FWIW.

BTW, Manzanita Hall has to be considered a high rise in terms of tactics. Anything beyond a 3-5 story mid-rise is a completely different animal that entirely changes the firefighting game.

All this aside, my personal opinion is in agreement with many of you-Arrendono is eventually going to have to accept that Tempe is becoming a big city. But it needs to be said that there are serious expenses involved and as a representative of the city's citizens he has to at least bring that issue forward.

That's my 2 cents.

vertex Aug 9, 2007 1:04 PM

Thanks for the insight Solediavolo, duly noted. And welcome to the Forum. :tup:

PhxSprawler Aug 9, 2007 5:01 PM

Tempe Pics
 
Here are some quick pics I took yesterday while rushing through Tempe. I do not claim to be a photographer, so I apologize in advance for the bad angles/lighting. ;)

Lightrail on Apache

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1212/...877992.jpg?v=0


New Development on Apache and McAllister (Former Mariposa Hall site- I will edit this when I have the name of the place!)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/...147d45.jpg?v=0


Looking towards University Square

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/...a4e931.jpg?v=0


Centerpoint I from the Southeast

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1417/...b29efa.jpg?v=0


Centerpoint I and II from the Southwest (Completing the 12th storey on tower 2, three storeys higher than my last post)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1276/...579fc1.jpg?v=0


Centerpoint I and II from the Northwest

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1302/...4248de.jpg?v=0

Centerpoint I and II from the Northwest2

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1181/...g?v=1186677685


Centerpoint I and II from the Northeast

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1324/...0c1235.jpg?v=0


Centerpoint I and II from the Northeast2

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1015/...g?v=1186677807


Centerpoint I view from Gammage

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1237/...c9643e.jpg?v=0

and finally... Good ol' Gammage Auditorium

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1005/...3b12d8.jpg?v=0

Go Devils!

DevdogAZ Aug 9, 2007 9:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxSprawler (Post 3000237)
New Development on Apache and McAllister (Former Mariposa Hall site- I will edit this when I have the name of the place!)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/...147d45.jpg?v=0
Go Devils!

Apparently that project is called Vista del Sol. It's student housing owned by ASU, but they contracted with American Campus Communities to build and manage it. Here's the project info page on ACC's website: http://www.studenthousing.com/portfo...?propertyID=95


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