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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

casper Sep 11, 2016 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 7557385)
The great circle route from CYYC to BIKF is 2780nm. Actual flight route will be a bit longer than that, but likely under 3000nm, certainly well within range of a B737.

However, I'm more interested in the difference in seats. A WestJet B737 seats 118 in Economy and 12 in Plus. Their B763 seats 238 in Economy and 24 in Plus. Assuming no-one is left behind in Keflavik waiting for another plane, that implies a lot of empty seats on the 767.

They also interline with Icelandic. If they wanted to they could reroute some of the passangers onto Islandic. However, from another post it sounds like they are sending to 737.

They appear to be having nothing but problems with this 767.

lubicon Sep 12, 2016 6:17 PM

Two rescue flight were sent, oddly enough one of them returned to Calgary rather than both going to Edmonton. Maybe that implies a lot of connecting passengers? 258 people on board, not sure if that includes crew but regardless the load was pretty decent. 262 passengers is a full load.

http://avherald.com/h?article=49dd00dd&opt=0

SignalHillHiker Sep 12, 2016 9:06 PM

Quote:

Travel nearly anywhere in the world, and you'll find cheap airlines offering no-frills service, from European giant Ryanair Holdings Plc to Peach Aviation Ltd. in Japan, Flynas in Saudi Arabia, and Spirit Airlines Inc. in the U.S. But head north of the border, and the aviation landscape is untouched by ultralow-cost airlines.
Canada ranks among the world’s most expensive countries to fly in, due in part to high airport and security fees and limited competition, and service is meager in many small and midsize cities. More than 60 percent of Canada’s 36 million people live within 100 miles of the border, and many head south to fly; about 5 million cross the border each year for cheaper flights.
“Griping about the cost of air travel in this country is as endemic as bitching about the weather—it’s as if nothing can be done about either of them,” a columnist for Canada’s National Post wrote in June.
Some cheaper fares may be en route. Three companies are working to bring the ultralow-cost model to the country, where air travel is dominated by two national airlines, Air Canada and WestJet Airlines Ltd.
But higher operating costs make it hard for new airlines to survive, and the dominant airlines are sure to respond to upstarts offering lower fares. WestJet, for example, has already begun new nonstop service on two routes flown by the first of these newcomers.
Canada is one of just two nations in the Group of 20 largest economies without any ultralow-cost carriers, or ULCCs. The other, Argentina, may see one next year as Irelandia Aviation Ltd.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-back-to-earth

jmt18325 Sep 12, 2016 9:18 PM

They're a little late, seeing as Newleaf has been around for over a month.

Alexcaban Sep 13, 2016 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie (Post 7551524)
That is very possible. What I do know is the Hainan group really wants to launch YVR-TSN (Tianjin) as part of their plan to build some overseas routes from there. They wanted 4 weekly on Tianjin or 5 weekly on Hainan. Now that Hainan only has 12 weekly frequencies allotted to them.... That leaves 2 available as 7 are used on YYZ-PEK and 3 on YYC-PEK. From my understanding they don't just want 2 per week on YVR-TSN. So in order to get the frequencies on that route they will have to pull these from elsewhere. YYZ is not an option from what I'm told. One of the other options is they just forget about YVR-TSN altogether. Considering they just launched YYC-PEK I just can't see them pulling it. Unless the flights are doing really poorly I would say it's safe. The fact they originally wanted to launch with 3 and then boost to 4 per week shortly thereafter then immediately pulled the 4th flight indicates they were happy with the 3 per week.

Regarding PEK-YYC

Quote:

Beijing – Calgary Service reduces from 3 weekly (Day 246) to 2 weekly (Day 26), except January 2017. Boeing 787-8 service
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...as-of-13sep16/

The Chemist Sep 13, 2016 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver (Post 7554807)
I hadn't realized that customs at YUL was in such a congested state at peak times. The automated passport kiosks definitely accelerate the processing of Canadian passport holders; I am usually through customs at YVR in about 5 minutes when returning from abroad, even with several long-haul widebodies arriving within minutes of each other. But with the former Conservative government's hiring freeze on customs staff (has this been rectified by the Liberals?) primarily affecting the processing of foreign passport holders, while leaving Canadians largely unscathed, I suspect that there hasn't been sufficient impetus to fix the situation. Not a great first impression of Canada.

If it's any consolation, the US is even worse. By far the worst customs experience I've had in recent years was on arrival from China at LAX, where the customs line took FOREVER to get through.

wave46 Sep 14, 2016 1:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker (Post 7558854)

I'm unsure that Canada has sufficient population to support a ultra-low-cost carrier. Ryanair moves huge numbers of people at razor-thin margins. Also, Ryanair's destinations tend to be much closer together than many places in Canada.

Also, I'm not sure how much "slack" there is left in the Canadian market. Would dropping airfares 25-50% induce that much more demand for travel within Canada? I'm thinking not - travel is far more expensive than just the airline flight. At best, you'd get the irregular travelers headed for a couple more visits to family and whatnot and a few who would squeeze a bit more of Canadian vacationing in.

Westjet started out as a "low-cost" carrier, then moved upmarket. Perhaps they found the "low-cost" traveler was not as profitable an enterprise as expected? Or that the smallish Canadian travel market was saturated quickly?

I'd be glad to be wrong on this one, but I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it.

I've not flown either Spirit or Ryanair, but the ultra-low-cost shtick doesn't sound as great as it is made out to be. I've rode in a Greyhound, thanks. Sometimes the extra money is worth it, not to mention the security of knowing that your airline will still be in business when you actually travel.

1overcosc Sep 14, 2016 2:25 AM

I've flown Ryanair before. It was very cheap, but you get what you paid for.

MalcolmTucker Sep 14, 2016 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 7560459)
I'm unsure that Canada has sufficient population to support a ultra-low-cost carrier. Ryanair moves huge numbers of people at razor-thin margins. Also, Ryanair's destinations tend to be much closer together than many places in Canada.

Also, I'm not sure how much "slack" there is left in the Canadian market. Would dropping airfares 25-50% induce that much more demand for travel within Canada? I'm thinking not - travel is far more expensive than just the airline flight. At best, you'd get the irregular travelers headed for a couple more visits to family and whatnot and a few who would squeeze a bit more of Canadian vacationing in.

Westjet started out as a "low-cost" carrier, then moved upmarket. Perhaps they found the "low-cost" traveler was not as profitable an enterprise as expected? Or that the smallish Canadian travel market was saturated quickly?

I'd be glad to be wrong on this one, but I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it.

I've not flown either Spirit or Ryanair, but the ultra-low-cost shtick doesn't sound as great as it is made out to be. I've rode in a Greyhound, thanks. Sometimes the extra money is worth it, not to mention the security of knowing that your airline will still be in business when you actually travel.

I think trying the whole alternate airport strategy with ultra low cost might work. You have to really commit though, and just refuse to service places without an airport that has fees below a certain $ per pax, and a certain fixed cost.

I like this 'network' as a starter.
http://i.imgur.com/5J9Gyb6.png
Source: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yxx-yqf...S=best&RC=navy

Red Deer is expanding its main runway to 7500 ft.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...88031813_o.jpg
Source: Red Deer Airport Facebook Page

OTSkyline Sep 14, 2016 7:48 PM

I loved flying Ryanair and Easyjet all across Europe... I mean if you only pack one carry-on and aren't super needy, there is nothing wrong with it. I've flown from Milan, Italy to Paris for $17 and most of my round-trip flights across Europe were int he $40-$60 range.. The most I ever paid for was $90 round trip from Milan, Italy to Marrekesh, Morocco!

But I do agree, as much as I'd love to see this in Canada, I just don't see it happening. Our population is too low and spread across. Ryanair and Easyjet run on full capacity airplanes and move millions and millions of people around Europe. They also benefit from serving most major cities but from secondary airports (therefore saving on the higher fees and taxes), something that NewLeaf woudn't be able to do as most Canadian cities only have one major airport. So if the company is stuck paying the same fees and taxes as Air Canada and WestJet how is it going to compete by offering fares at 50% or more off? :(

thenoflyzone Sep 14, 2016 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker (Post 7561051)

Red Deer is expanding its main runway to 7500 ft.

Sure, but we are talking about a city with a population of 100,000. Even if the runway will soon be capable of handling Airbuses and Boeings, not sure YQF can sustain a daily flight to Toronto or Hamilton. Being stuck right in the middle of YEG and YYC is a two-edged sword. It might help, just like it might not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker (Post 7561051)
I think trying the whole alternate airport strategy with ultra low cost might work. You have to really commit though, and just refuse to service places without an airport that has fees below a certain $ per pax, and a certain fixed cost.

Even Ryanair realises that the secondary airport strategy can only go so far. In the last few years, they started flying to the main airports across Europe. (BCN, FCO, AMS, MAD. etc)

When people want to go to Barcelona, they want to go to Barcelona, not Girona, located 100 km away. Of course, Ryanair serves both, but as OTSkyline pointed out, the population in Europe is huge. The market is there. You cannot replicate the same thing here in Canada. NewLeaf will soon realise this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 7560459)
I'm unsure that Canada has sufficient population to support a ultra-low-cost carrier. Ryanair moves huge numbers of people at razor-thin margins.

:tup:

MalcolmTucker Sep 14, 2016 8:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7561387)
Sure, but we are talking about a city with a population of 100,000. Even if the runway will soon be capable of handling Airbuses and Boeings, not sure YQF can sustain a daily flight to Toronto or Hamilton. Being stuck right in the middle of YEG and YYC is a two-edged sword. It might help, just like it might not.



Even Ryanair realises that the secondary airport strategy can only go so far. In the last few years, they started flying to the main airports across Europe. (BCN, FCO, AMS, MAD. etc)

When people want to go to Barcelona, they want to go to Barcelona, not Girona, located 100 km away. Of course, Ryanair serves both, but as OTSkyline pointed out, the population in Europe is huge. The market is there. You cannot replicate the same thing here in Canada. NewLeaf will soon realise this.



:tup:

About the same distance for Calgary and Edmonton as Frankfurt–Hahn to Frankfurt and Luxembourg. There needs to be a good sized cost advantage to make it work for sure.

thenoflyzone Sep 14, 2016 8:14 PM

On another note, Montreal is experiencing great tourism growth this year, in no small part to the low Canadian dollar vs the US.
That's always good news for YUL.

21% increase from United States.
13% increase from overseas.
17% increase From Germany.
7% increase from Great Britain.
4% increase from “French” Europe (France, Switzerland, Belgium).

Chinese tourism has risen a whopping 197% since last year.

http://www.mtlblog.com/2016/08/montr...ourist-season/

1overcosc Sep 14, 2016 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTSkyline (Post 7561382)
But I do agree, as much as I'd love to see this in Canada, I just don't see it happening. Our population is too low and spread across. Ryanair and Easyjet run on full capacity airplanes and move millions and millions of people around Europe. They also benefit from serving most major cities but from secondary airports (therefore saving on the higher fees and taxes), something that NewLeaf woudn't be able to do as most Canadian cities only have one major airport. So if the company is stuck paying the same fees and taxes as Air Canada and WestJet how is it going to compete by offering fares at 50% or more off? :(

Not necessarily. In addition to the ones already mentioned, another feasible "alternate airport" is Gatineau Airport (YND) for the Ottawa region. At 6000 feet, I don't think its runway is long enough for jet service, but it wouldn't be that hard to expand it a bit to enable 737s to land there.

Between Abbotsford (Vancouver), Red Deer (Edmonton/Calgary), Gatineau (Ottawa), and Hamilton (Toronto), that's a reasonable collection of potential low cost secondary passenger airports for many of Canada's major air markets.

Montreal, Halifax, Winnipeg, and Quebec City, however, do not have viable alternate airport candidates to my knowledge. Although I suppose Montreal **could** be served by YND as well, although the distance means the fare difference would have to be pretty big for that to work.

begratto Sep 14, 2016 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc (Post 7561685)
Montreal, Halifax, Winnipeg, and Quebec City, however, do not have viable alternate airport candidates to my knowledge. Although I suppose Montreal **could** be served by YND as well, although the distance means the fare difference would have to be pretty big for that to work.

Montreal has St-Hubert / YHU, on the South Shore, only 15km or so from downtown.

1overcosc Sep 15, 2016 1:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begratto (Post 7561692)
Montreal has St-Hubert / YHU, on the South Shore, only 15km or so from downtown.

Cool! I had no idea that airport existed.. but it definitely works.

So there's five airports that could be low cost alternatives, that can serve all of Canada's six largest cities.

casper Sep 15, 2016 4:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc (Post 7561823)
Cool! I had no idea that airport existed.. but it definitely works.

So there's five airports that could be low cost alternatives, that can serve all of Canada's six largest cities.

I have flown in and out of YHU on private aircraft to FBO. It is convenient if your heading to the south shore. There is a lot weird traffic at the airport. The military has operations there. Pratt also some 747 test aircraft based at that airport.

Out of all the "secondary" airports I think it is the most viable.

zahav Sep 15, 2016 5:43 PM

YUL and YYZ still haven't posted July traffic, ugh so slow!

Bigtime Sep 15, 2016 6:04 PM

Did Air Transat just pull the plug on all Western Canada-Europe flights for summer 2017?

http://www.stockhouse.com/news/press...flight-program

zahav Sep 15, 2016 6:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigtime (Post 7562835)
Did Air Transat just pull the plug on all Western Canada-Europe flights for summer 2017?

http://www.stockhouse.com/news/press...flight-program

No they will still operate the same typical European routes like London, Paris, Frankfurt etc. from Western Canada. These are the more specialized niche routes that have only ever operated out of Montreal or Toronto (Prague, etc.). The connecting flights are so you can book from YVR to Athens, and fly Transat the entire way, connecting in YUL or YYZ


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