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thenoflyzone Mar 13, 2023 4:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9889911)

Successful airlines generally don’t have three spare a/c lying around…:rolleyes:
No airline - in the business of making money - has spare aircraft lying around. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casper (Post 9890288)
The Global and Mail article make it sound like two of the leasing companies that have aircraft with Flair were shopping them around to see if their was another Canadian airline interested in taking over the lease. One would assume if Air Canada or WestJet were interested in the aircraft their would have been more than 3 taken back.

Given they are licensed in Canada already they are more attractive to a Canadian airline than in another country where there is extra paper work.
Rumor has it a US LCC will take them.

Once the dominos start to fall, there is no stopping it. At this point, it's not if Flair will fail, but rather which day this week will it happen !

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9889359)
Oh boy… this will be absolutely tragic for the marketplace if flair goes under. smaller airports have been benefiting a ton from flair’s presence.
They knew the risks involved. Once Flair goes under, they can kiss goodbye to all that subsidy money they gave the airline to start ludicrous routes left, right and center.

P.S. nname, I think you can stop counting Flair bases and which aircraft will fly what route.....It's a pointless exercise. Always was !

LO 044 Mar 13, 2023 5:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
...to start ludicrous routes left, right and center.
I don't think you're including Flair's Prince George-Tucson route as part of your statement are you lol? :sarcasm:

JakeLRS Mar 13, 2023 5:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
P.S. nname, I think you can stop counting Flair bases and which aircraft will fly what route.....It's a pointless exercise. Always was !
Hey now, personally I was a big fan of the hobby. Don't be so negative, take it to the YYC forum where it belongs.
It's been really interesting to see how flair has expanded over the past two years.

whatnext Mar 13, 2023 5:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9890405)
I don't think you're including Flair's Prince George-Tucson route as part of your statement are you lol? :sarcasm:
Hey now, that route was brilliant out of the box thinking! :haha:

Literally overheard a group of ladies in a coffee shop this morning - one said she was heading to Mexico next week and another shot back, "Hopefully not on Flair"! I'd be curious to see their booking trends...

thenoflyzone Mar 13, 2023 6:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9890459)
Hey now, personally I was a big fan of the hobby. Don't be so negative, take it to the YYC forum where it belongs.
It's been really interesting to see how flair has expanded over the past two years.
I thought that was the YEG forum....;)

hehehe Mar 13, 2023 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9890459)
Hey now, personally I was a big fan of the hobby. Don't be so negative, take it to the YYC forum where it belongs.
It's been really interesting to see how flair has expanded over the past two years.
We also talk about Flair flights in the YYC forum :(

hollywoodcory Mar 14, 2023 5:07 PM
WS has extended YXE-MSP to year-round, showing 3x weekly during the winter months.

whatnext Mar 14, 2023 8:30 PM
So much for the story Flair was spinning about only being slightly late with payments:

Flair Airlines missed payments for months before planes seized, lessor says
ERIC ATKINS TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
PUBLISHED 1 HOUR AGO

The leasing company that seized four Flair Boeing 737s on the weekend said it did so only after the Edmonton-based discount airline “regularly” defaulted on millions of dollars in payments over a five-month period.

The lessor, Airborne Capital of Dublin, worked with bailiffs to repossess four of Flair’s 19 jets late Friday and early Saturday at airports in Edmonton, Toronto and Waterloo, Ont. Officials issued lease termination notices that grounded the planes, and took the maintenance records and other documents ahead of one of the year’s busiest travel days.

Flair chief executive officer Stephen Jones said he was surprised by the seizures. He said it was “aggressive” and “draconian” directed by impatient New York hedge funds because Flair was just US$1-million behind in its payments. He also says rival airlines are behind the move to reduce Flair’s fleet for competitive reasons.

“It was a real surprise to me,” he said.

But in a statement issued on Tuesday, Airborne said it “strongly rejects” Mr. Jones’s statements, and says the amount owed was in the millions of dollars.

“The leasing of the four Airborne-managed aircraft was terminated following a five-month long period, during which Flair was regularly in default of its leases by failing to meet its payments when due, with payment arrears reaching millions of dollars,” said Airborne, in its first public comments on the matter....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ssed-payments/

manny_santos Mar 14, 2023 8:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
No airline - in the business of making money - has spare aircraft lying around. Period.



Rumor has it a US LCC will take them.

Once the dominos start to fall, there is no stopping it. At this point, it's not if Flair will fail, but rather which day this week will it happen !



They knew the risks involved. Once Flair goes under, they can kiss goodbye to all that subsidy money they gave the airline to start ludicrous routes left, right and center.

P.S. nname, I think you can stop counting Flair bases and which aircraft will fly what route.....It's a pointless exercise. Always was !
If - or when - Flair goes under, that will be a big blow to London International Airport. A lot of their post-pandemic recovery has been based around Flair beginning service there, especially as Swoop has mostly overlooked YXU after cutting most of its routes there during the pandemic.

manny_santos Mar 14, 2023 8:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9891678)
Flair chief executive officer Stephen Jones said he was surprised by the seizures. He said it was “aggressive” and “draconian” directed by impatient New York hedge funds because Flair was just US$1-million behind in its payments. He also says rival airlines are behind the move to reduce Flair’s fleet for competitive reasons.

“It was a real surprise to me,” he said.

But in a statement issued on Tuesday, Airborne said it “strongly rejects” Mr. Jones’s statements, and says the amount owed was in the millions of dollars.

“The leasing of the four Airborne-managed aircraft was terminated following a five-month long period, during which Flair was regularly in default of its leases by failing to meet its payments when due, with payment arrears reaching millions of dollars,” said Airborne, in its first public comments on the matter....[/I]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ssed-payments/
Not a good look, Mr. Jones. Why should we trust you and your company at this point when you're telling us one thing and your creditors are telling us another thing?

Hope you're happy with not getting my money that I almost gave you for multiple flights this year which will be going to other airlines instead.

LO 044 Mar 14, 2023 9:30 PM
And some more news stories.

Flair apologizes for cancellations after plane seizures, says leasing company in talks with competitor

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/flair-ap...itor-1.6312579

Flair Airlines fumes about ‘underhanded skulduggery’ at Region of Waterloo airport while conceding it misled 628 passengers after cancelling Saturday flights

https://www.therecord.com/news/water...y-flights.html

Dominion301 Mar 15, 2023 1:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos (Post 9891705)
If - or when - Flair goes under, that will be a big blow to London International Airport. A lot of their post-pandemic recovery has been based around Flair beginning service there, especially as Swoop has mostly overlooked YXU after cutting most of its routes there during the pandemic.
If Flair goes under the blow to YXU will be a fraction of the blow to YKF. No other airport stands to lose more. I bet YHM are thrilled that their entrenched ULCC is WS’ flanker brand.

Dominion301 Mar 15, 2023 1:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
No airline - in the business of making money - has spare aircraft lying around. Period.



Rumor has it a US LCC will take them.

Once the dominos start to fall, there is no stopping it. At this point, it's not if Flair will fail, but rather which day this week will it happen !



They knew the risks involved. Once Flair goes under, they can kiss goodbye to all that subsidy money they gave the airline to start ludicrous routes left, right and center.

P.S. nname, I think you can stop counting Flair bases and which aircraft will fly what route.....It's a pointless exercise. Always was !
F8 have no spare aircraft either as they’re chartering Nolinor’s OWG 738…a further drag on expenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manny_santos (Post 9891705)
If - or when - Flair goes under, that will be a big blow to London International Airport. A lot of their post-pandemic recovery has been based around Flair beginning service there, especially as Swoop has mostly overlooked YXU after cutting most of its routes there during the pandemic.
If Flair goes under the blow to YXU will be a fraction of the blow to YKF. No other airport stands to lose more. I bet YHM are thrilled that their entrenched ULCC is WS’ flanker brand.

casper Mar 15, 2023 1:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9891930)
If Flair goes under the blow to YXU will be a fraction of the blow to YKF. No other airport stands to lose more. I bet YHM are thrilled that their entrenched ULCC is WS’ flanker brand.
Perhaps.

When the dust settles, the airport will have real-world data that they can use to pitch service to WestJet, Air Canada or Porter. They will be in a better position that they were in 2019. The assumes the market is there.

nname Mar 15, 2023 2:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
No airline - in the business of making money - has spare aircraft lying around. Period.
To be fair, AC had 15 planes set aside to "have adequate backup aircraft available for operational support and recovery". That essentially the same as spare aircrafts. This is directly from their Q4 report.

And I know that because AC always have far less departures in winter schedule compared to summer one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9890349)
P.S. nname, I think you can stop counting Flair bases and which aircraft will fly what route.....It's a pointless exercise. Always was !
It's all automatic... Take 10s to pull the entire schedule, plus maybe 5min to process them.

That compared to 2-3 hours and risk of an IP ban just to pull the full data for AC... And WS will likely take even longer if I finally bother to write a script for them.

JakeLRS Mar 15, 2023 2:30 AM
Looks like Flair is eyeing Dominican next winter.
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2023-46

CTA approved their application on March 9th.

hehehe Mar 15, 2023 12:24 PM
That's if they last. Flair made it sound like they only missed one payment by accident but now that the lessor has come out and said their side of the story it doesn't look great...

kwoldtimer Mar 15, 2023 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by casper (Post 9891958)
Perhaps.

When the dust settles, the airport will have real-world data that they can use to pitch service to WestJet, Air Canada or Porter. They will be in a better position that they were in 2019. The assumes the market is there.
YOW-YKF on Porter would be nice to see.

casper Mar 15, 2023 1:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer (Post 9892214)
YOW-YKF on Porter would be nice to see.
I remember in the 90s Pem-Air did operate that route. There may be someone on that route. However, having WestJet, Air Canada or Porter would provide for onward connections.

Air Canada and Porter also have more reasonable sized aircraft for these smaller airports than Flair.

Dominion301 Mar 15, 2023 2:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer (Post 9892214)
YOW-YKF on Porter would be nice to see.
I wonder if Pivot after the Dominican saga will ever get that off the ground. PD would be best though. Ditto YOW-YHM, YOW-YXU, YOW-YQG and YOW-YSB...but PD will need a couple more Dash 8s. We'll see what the next 5 years bring. Right now they need to get the basics of the E95s going smoothly.


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