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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

esquire Nov 28, 2018 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393121)
I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.

It could very well happen to the NHL too. I mean, things can change fast... it was only a generation ago that NHL tickets were maybe 3x or 4x the cost of a movie ticket and it was not uncommon for a NHLer to make 120 grand.

It is definitely not written in stone that third liners will continue to command millions a year until the end of time.

Acajack Nov 28, 2018 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8393121)
I'm looking at it from a 'tip of the iceberg' point of view.

The Big 3 automakers had that complacent point of view too, until it all came crashing down.

I don't think the Big 4 leagues will be anywhere near as dire as the automakers, but I don't think they should be overly confident either.

I get the same feeling when I look at pro sports numbers, which are often as good or better than ever.

Like it could be a house of cards, or a balloon that keeps inflating and inflating... until one day it pops.

I have teens and while there are still lots of boys interested in pro sports, the percentage is stil *way* lower than when I was a kid. When it was basically everyone. With only a very small number of outliers. Obviously, some of those interested were pretending just to be part of the crowd.

But today there is just a huge demographic of young males who have zero interest in pro sports.

Not that I care either way - but if I were involved in that business I'd keep an eye on the growing mass of indifferents.

blueandgoldguy Nov 29, 2018 11:30 PM

I am curious to see how much the e-sports phenomenon will grow among younger generations. I hear it is a billion dollar industry already.

JHikka Dec 1, 2018 1:44 PM

@JLew1050
Last night's win over the Warriors was the most-watched Raptors regular season game ever on TSN with 564K viewers. 1.9 million Canadians tuned in to some part of the game. The previous most-watched reg season game was last month's opener (528K). The Kawhi effect is real.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396069)
@JLew1050
Last night's win over the Warriors was the most-watched Raptors regular season game ever on TSN with 564K viewers. 1.9 million Canadians tuned in to some part of the game. The previous most-watched reg season game was last month's opener (528K). The Kawhi effect is real.

Not to be a killjoy but...

While I can appreciate that Raptors fans are excited, I am not sure what the Great Canadian Sports Achievement is here.

OK, so the Raptors have good attendance and increasing TV ratings. They play in the best league in the world in their sport that also happens to be entirely U.S.-based except for them. They play in a huge city and metro area with lots of disposable income. They benefit from the U.S. media machine and the popularity of the NBA among many celebrities popular with young people, *plus* their home city is the centre of the Canadian media that has decent audiences in the vast majority of the country?

I mean, how could they not be a successful pro sports property?

But getting excited about this as a uniquely Canadian success story is about the same as getting excited because millions of Canadians went to see the latest Marvel superhero blockbuster at their local Canadian-owned multiplexes.

Yeah for us!

esquire Dec 2, 2018 3:32 PM

^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

elly63 Dec 2, 2018 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

Have to agree. When I read that, the first thing I thought of was that that was an average CFL regular season rating.

As I said it's all perception, the CFL is competing against it's own history, that Raptors number is a triumph for them but the start of a death knell for the CFL.

What I can't understand is why a few here so gleefully campaign to try and kill about the only true national league we have in favour of foreign products. I just don't know how or why that is hurting them.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 3:49 PM

NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

esquire Dec 2, 2018 4:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8396661)
NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

The only possible explanation, really. Much like how the millions of TFC fans are not reflected in their infomercial tier TV ratings.

JHikka Dec 2, 2018 4:08 PM

Interesting how I can post NBA numbers and the discussion still ends up being about the CFL. :hmmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
^ For all the relentless dumping on the CFL by JHikka, his own numbers demonstrate the CFL's value to TSN.

The CFL and TSN are sort of in this together at this point: TSN has no other major properties coming up for availability any time soon and the CFL needs TSN to survive financially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396655)
I mean, Canada's largest city has one of the top teams in the NBA, and their marquee record-setting-ratings matchup against a star-studded Golden State team with untold millions of dollars in basketball talent on the court delivers to TSN roughly the same kind of viewership as a Montreal Alouettes-Edmonton Eskimos game (week 10). The latter probably dwarfs the Raptors viewership once you factor in the Als fans watching the French feed on RDS.

Firstly, these are only TV numbers, an antiquated system of surveying a sports team's popularity. I post them here because they're numbers but they're not the end of any discussion. If TSN ever posted streaming/mobile numbers we would have a better indication of their social media impact as a whole for most properties. It's a shame they don't.

Secondly, CFL teams play a limited number of games per year compared to an NHL or NBA team. The Raptors play 82 games in a regular season, so there's plenty more space for ads and ad placements as a whole regardless of viewers. Even if the Raptors average slightly less viewers than the Argos on TSN they're playing four times as many games. The Raptors play as many games as the CFL does as a whole which equates to an equal sponsorship plate for advertisers.

It's a very simplistic way of looking at things if you're assuming TV ratings are the end-all, be-all of a team's popularity or economic well-being. This isn't the 1980s anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63
As I said it's all perception, the CFL is competing against it's own history, that Raptors number is a triumph for them but the start of a death knell for the CFL.

They're a death knell for the CFL because TV is their main, major source of revenue for most teams. CFL teams cannot bring in sponsorship dollars that major league sports teams can. The Raptors don't need to use TV as a crutch as much as CFL teams need to.

The amount the Raptors rake in on their jersey sponsor patch alone could pay for an entire CFL's teams wages for a full season. [Source] The CFL simply doesn't have this potential for sponsorship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack
NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

Presumably yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire
The only possible explanation, really. Much like how the millions of TFC fans are not reflected in their infomercial tier TV ratings.

It's almost as if young people don't watch TV. :hmmm:

elly63 Dec 2, 2018 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396673)
Interesting how I can post NBA numbers and the discussion still ends up being about the CFL.

Because you're shit disturbing and everyone knows it. And when someone posts a negative post against MLS in retaliation, is when you bring out the delete club which you have no business in having and modding a CFL thread at the same time. You should do the honourable thing and step down if you're going to troll post.

The Kawhi effect? Are you serious? Maybe in the GTA or big time sports fans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396673)
The CFL and TSN are sort of in this together at this point: TSN has no other major properties coming up for availability any time soon and the CFL needs TSN to survive financially.

You have no idea about that, the CFL survived for years without TSN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396673)
Firstly, these are only TV numbers, an antiquated system of surveying a sports team's popularity. I post them here because they're numbers but they're not the end of any discussion. If TSN ever posted streaming/mobile numbers we would have a better indication of their social media impact as a whole for most properties. It's a shame they don't.

It's antiquated to you because the teams you support are doing so poorly and you have to rationalize it. And it's also insulting because you assume that the CFL's audience are incapable of streaming

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396673)
It's a very simplistic way of looking at things if you're assuming TV ratings are the end-all, be-all of a team's popularity or economic well-being. This isn't the 1980s anymore.

And until they figure out a way to monetize social media and the like it's the only system we have.

We get it, we know you want the CFL dead, your posts (and using the delete club) tell us that on a constant basis, I'd just like to know why. Do you really think that if the CFL is gone people will suddenly start to watch soccer?

I saw your insulting post about golf and Nascar and their demise (to you). As people mature they gravitate to golf and some also come back to the CFL. A 50 year old man playing a wannabe hoolie with the millennials at a TFC game is a friggin embarrassment, almost like an old guy trolling the bars.

elly63 Dec 2, 2018 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8396661)
NBA-Raptors fans in Canada are all (apparently) young and diverse, so perhaps the bulk of their viewers are streaming cord-cutters, and don't show up in TSN's numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8396668)
The only possible explanation, really. Much like how the millions of TFC fans are not reflected in their infomercial tier TV ratings.

And also the inference that baby boomers don't have smart phones and lack the knowledge and ability to stream.

MonctonRad Dec 2, 2018 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8396702)
And also the inference that baby boomers don't have smart phones and lack the knowledge and ability to stream.

I wouldn't say that...... :)

I really wonder how much of a revolution the "cord cutting" out there really is. When I was away from home at university in the early 1980s, I didn't have cable either. I made do with a little black & white TV with rabbit ears (that I rarely watched).

In today's connected world, there is a real need for a cell phone and an internet connection, but cable TV is still a relative luxury. I wonder if these same twenty-somethings will still be streaming everything when they are 40 years old, or will they have a cable subscription for their big screen TV

elly63 Dec 2, 2018 5:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8396712)
I really wonder how much of a revolution the "cord cutting" out there really is. When I was away from home at university in the early 1980s, I didn't have cable either. I made do with a little black & white TV with rabbit ears (that I rarely watched).

In today's connected world, there is a real need for a cell phone and an internet connection, but cable TV is still a relative luxury. I wonder if these same twenty-somethings will still be streaming everything when they are 40 years old, or will they have a cable subscription for their big screen TV

I think we might be living on parallel lines, more than you think. :) One of my previous careers was in IT, I know technology and have been around computers since the late 70s. But I refuse to use a cell phone, I have one, because a friend gave me an old one because I wanted to take pictures and do some other offline things. I don't have a cell phone connection because I see it as a freedom issue and the phone as a ball and chain, but that's just me, I know I differ from most on that.

But I have older family members who do have phones and have somehow figured out how to stream and this constant inference that only young people do, that pisses me off.

Unlike my statement of people turning to golf or CFL as they age (which has been quoted in articles) IMO these kids will not turn to cable TV. They have grown up in a generation of "free" movies, music and TV, why would you pay for it? To them it isn't an inconvenience as they know all the tricks how to get things for "free", as do I.

Cord cutting is a big issue as are "cord nevers" see below.

A detailed look at cord cutters and ‘cord nevers’
The latest MTM report details who has a TV subscription in Canada, who doesn't want one anymore and who never had one in the first place.
Regan Reid Media in Canada August 11, 2017

A new report from Media Technology Monitors gives a closer look at who is cutting the cord in Canada – and who never had a cord to cut in the first place.

According to the latest report, which surveyed more than 4,000 Canadians in spring 2017, three quarters of Canadians subscribe to a TV service, but penetration is declining, falling from 86% in 2005.

That leaves 25% of the population without a paid television subscription. Of those, 52% are cord cutters and 36% are “cord nevers.”

While they may not have a TV subscription, cord cutters and cord nevers are still interested in watching television. The report states that 72% of cord cutters watch TV content online, as do 68% of cord nevers, with nearly half of both groups watching on Netflix.

So who is cutting the cord in Canada? Younger Canadians between 18 and 34 (18%) are more likely to cut the cord than those between the ages of 35 and 49 (16%) and 65+ (5%). Canadians who only own a cell phone (and not a home phone) are the most likely to cut the cord at 22%.

Looking at cord nevers, students are most likely to have never subscribed to a cable package (20%), followed by 18- to 34-year-olds (18%), those with a household income of less than $35,000 (16%) and visible minorities (14%).

Of TV subscribers in Canada, 25% have cut back on their paid TV subscription within the last 12 months to try and reduce costs.

Looking ahead, the survey asked current TV subscribers how many were considering cancelling their service within the next year. Nearly a quarter (23%) responded that they were likely to do so (though the report does state that intent doesn’t always translate into action, so the number of people who actually cut the cord is likely to be a lot lower).

Of those subscribers, Anglophones are more likely to consider cutting the cord (24%) compared to Francophones (20%), with visible minorities (34%), cell phone-only homes (32%), 35- to 49-year-olds (31%) and households with kids under 12 (29%) the most likely to consider getting rid of cable.

On the other hand women (21%), Canadians over the age of 65 (14%) and those with a high school education or less (18%) have lower interest in cord cutting.

56.6 million US consumers to go without pay TV this year, as cord cutting accelerates
Sarah Perez 1 year ago

Cord-Cutting 101: What is a Cord-Never?
Curt Stelter Cut The Cord

Cord-nevers could be bigger threat to TV than cord-cutters
Watch out for the growing number of people who have never subscribed to traditional TV
Sophia Harris CBC News Nov 09, 2015

Cord-cutters and cord-nevers: Changing the way we consume content

The plot thickens...

Netflix Canada is hiking prices in its biggest increase yet
Netflix's standard plan will now cost $3 more, or $13.99 a month, while the premium package jumps to $16.99
David Friend The Canadian Press November 29, 2018

...The basic plan — which does not offer high-definition video and only allows one stream — rises a dollar to $9.99 a month.

mistercorporate Dec 2, 2018 5:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8396740)
The plot thickens...

Netflix Canada is hiking prices in its biggest increase yet
Netflix's standard plan will now cost $3 more, or $13.99 a month, while the premium package jumps to $16.99
David Friend The Canadian Press November 29, 2018

...The basic plan — which does not offer high-definition video and only allows one stream — rises a dollar to $9.99 a month.

I think it's long overdue, now they can invest in better content.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396673)
Secondly, CFL teams play a limited number of games per year compared to an NHL or NBA team. The Raptors play 82 games in a regular season, so there's plenty more space for ads and ad placements as a whole regardless of viewers. Even if the Raptors average slightly less viewers than the Argos on TSN they're playing four times as many games. The Raptors play as many games as the CFL does as a whole which equates to an equal sponsorship plate for advertisers.

It's a very simplistic way of looking at things if you're assuming TV ratings are the end-all, be-all of a team's popularity or economic well-being. This isn't the 1980s anymore.



They're a death knell for the CFL because TV is their main, major source of revenue for most teams. CFL teams cannot bring in sponsorship dollars that major league sports teams can. The Raptors don't need to use TV as a crutch as much as CFL teams need to.

The amount the Raptors rake in on their jersey sponsor patch alone could pay for an entire CFL's teams wages for a full season. [Source] The CFL simply doesn't have this potential for sponsorship.

:

Thank goodness for the CFL then that their overall operating costs are nowhere near as high as they are for those other leagues: especially salaries.

I mean, I'm also a fan of a number of the really big leagues, but one thing that's refreshing about the CFL is a healthier balance between being in it for the game as opposed to be having so much titled towards business and money.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8396693)

And until they figure out a way to monetize social media and the like it's the only system we have.

.

Streaming's been around for a while now. Don't you find it fishy that this type of data is almost never available from broadcasters? I mean, any number of Joe Schmos in my office can provide me with a bunch of data indicators about our web and social media at the drop of a hat. I can't believe for a minute the big guys aren't totally in tune with what is going on.

BTW this is not a criticism of any specific league.

DDP Dec 2, 2018 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8393125)
It could very well happen to the NHL too. I mean, things can change fast... it was only a generation ago that NHL tickets were maybe 3x or 4x the cost of a movie ticket and it was not uncommon for a NHLer to make 120 grand.

It is definitely not written in stone that third liners will continue to command millions a year until the end of time.

I read a report that teen interest in pro sports in falling fast, mostly because of how many options teens have. So they will never follow sports like the generations did before them.

If it turns out to be true, pro sports will be in for a massive fight. Young people will likely never have cable, and probably not want to spent $100 bucks to watch a game on a regular basis.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 7:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8396069)
The Kawhi effect is real.

I have no idea who that is. I am Canadian and watch Sports 30 on RDS or TVA Sports more days that I don't. Maybe they do talk about him and his team but it must be towards the tail end of the broadcast when I've tuned out.

Acajack Dec 2, 2018 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8396658)
Have to agree. When I read that, the first thing I thought of was that that was an average CFL regular season rating.

As I said it's all perception, the CFL is competing against it's own history, that Raptors number is a triumph for them but the start of a death knell for the CFL.

What I can't understand is why a few here so gleefully campaign to try and kill about the only true national league we have in favour of foreign products. I just don't know how or why that is hurting them.

I've often derided obsessive Canadian NFL or March Madness fandom as akin to gloating about your neighbour's hot car.

In the case of the Raptors (and to some degree the Blue Jays too) it's not quite as bad as you actually do have a team based in Canada, even if I find the "Canadian pride" angle associated with them a bit overwrought. (Hope that is the right word in English.)

But when you consider how difficult it is for Canadian clubs to win championships in these leagues (and we could say this about the NHL too perhaps), it's still kinda like gloating about your neighbour's hot car as being "yours", and once in a blue moon he might let you take it our for a spin.


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